Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

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Lambano

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It would not change the fact that those churches are basically the same denomination, just without a regular connection with each other. Very similar theology, the same core beliefs.
"Similar" and "core beliefs". Yeah. I've seen a few with quirky local doctrines. Some churches welcome gay people, some don't. Some allow women pastors, some don't. There are free-will Baptist and Reformed Baptist churches. I've heard stories of Pentecostal churches that require demonstration of speaking of tongues for membership; others do not. Our OP obviously considers the Trinity to be a core doctrine. Our Oneness Pentecostal friend in a few other threads also believes that Jesus is God, but in a modalist implementation that the OP's tradition considers heretical.
 

HealthyShape

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"Similar" and "core beliefs". Yeah. I've seen a few with quirky local doctrines. Some churches welcome gay people, some don't. Some allow women pastors, some don't. There are free-will Baptist and Reformed Baptist churches. I've heard stories of Pentecostal churches that require demonstration of speaking of tongues for membership; others do not. Our OP obviously considers the Trinity to be a core doctrine. Our Oneness Pentecostal friend in a few other threads also believes that Jesus is God, but in a modalist implementation that the OP's tradition considers heretical.
Oneness, modalism, tritheism etc. are not a Christian theology. If some pentecostal community rejects Trinity, it is not a Christian denomination in the orthodox meaning of the word.
 

Lambano

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I think that you do not need to learn anything philosophical regarding "Jesus is God, Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is one God". Almost nobody here discusses concepts like ousia or hypostasis, most heretics just limit their attacks to trying to rewrite the Bible that "God" does not mean God. Nothing truly philosophical about that.
If interpreting the Bible were that easy, we'd all agree on everything. It's NOT easy, and writing off those who disagree with you as heretics isn't helpful. I also would not write off the teachings of our forefathers so quickly. It helps to understand WHY some people interpret the Bible one way and others very differently.
 
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HealthyShape

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If interpreting the Bible were that easy, we'd all agree on everything. It's NOT easy, and writing off those who disagree with you as heretics isn't helpful. I also would not write off the teachings of our forefathers so quickly. It helps to understand WHY some people interpret the Bible one way and others very differently.
It is actually that easy, whether some Greek word means God or not is not about some unending discussions, we understand Greek and we have the early church writings explaining what they believed about it. We are not philosophers here to discuss it really deeply.

I use the word heretics in technical sense - they deviate from the accepted Christian orthodoxy, from apostolic teachings, from ecumenical councils/creeds and frequently even from what the Greek text means, like Aunty Jane.
 
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Lambano

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It is actually that easy, whether some Greek word means God or not is not about some unending discussions, we understand Greek and we have the early church writings explaining what they believed about it. We are not philosophers here to discuss it really deeply.
All the best heresies have Biblical support.

Everybody here can cite scripture. Good grief, if you were part of the earlier discussion of John 1:18, we can't even agree which manuscripts of John are legitimate. We can't even agree on what Bible to use, much less what it actually says, and still less what it actually means.
 
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Lambano

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Oneness/modalism, Arianism/subordinationism, and Trinitarianism are all attempts at solving the logical contradiction posed by Jesus's divinity and the non-negotiable doctrine of monotheism. The contradiction won't go away. I wish we could all be honest about it.
 

JLB

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The Greek word "theotes" used in Colossians 2:9 means "Deity", and is translated such in the NET, NIV, NASB, and others. "The Godhead" is the KJV translators writing back their theology into the Bible.

The divinity of Christ is not what is under contention here.
Are you going to answer my question?


For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; Colossians 2:9 NKJV


Who is “Him” in this scripture?


Who are the members of the Godhead?
 

JLB

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Jah is Jehovah in a special sense and relation.

‘There are no “J’s” in Hebrew.

The word “Jehovah” came about in the 13th Century.

Moses nor any of the prophets, nor Jesus, nor any of the Apostles would have used “Jehovah”.

The word in Hebrew is YHWH.


Yah is the shortened form. H3050
 

JLB

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They are one, but never used the word "Trinity" in the Bible.

‘I don’t use the word Trinity.


What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) that we call on to be saved?


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.
Romans 10:9-13
 

JLB

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You know this is not true but you will persist until the end.


What is the name of the LORD (YHWH) that we call on to be saved?


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.
Romans 10:9-13
 

soberxp

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False Alternative. This is one interpretation among others equally valid. Why eliminate these other interpretations, other than they don't align with the trinity narrative?
Yes, it could be also understand as the truth reveals from heaven by God,so the Bible says that Jesus Christ come from the heaven.

If God made all man, then I also could say that all man come from heaven.
 

GodsGrace

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Before the birth of Christ there was The Father, The Holy Spirit Power, The Angelic Host.

Let me instruct you on the later.

“Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.” (Exodus 23:21, ESV)

This single statement “My name is in him” is one of the most profound declarations in all of Scripture. It tells us that God placed His own divine authority, character, and purpose within the one He sent before Israel. In Hebrew thought, the Name is never a mere label; it represents God’s very being, His power, holiness, and saving intent. To carry God’s Name is to act with God’s full authorization @Lambano.
Yes sir.
Exodus 23:21 is one of the more important passages in the OT that attest to the fact that
God is a plurality even in the OT.

The Angel of the Lord IS YAHWEH.

MY NAME IS IN HIM....
God's name represents His character, His qualities, His nature, His Personhood and authority.

Yahweh's name was IN HIM...NOT ON HIM.

Does an angel have God's
CHARACTER
QUALITIES
NATURE
AUTHORITY


No.

This thread is not about the Divinity of Jesus.
I've debated this for years and, quite frankly, I'm tired of it and CHRISTIANS should not be debating
the Divinity of Jesus.

THIS is what this thread is addrssing.

If you do not believe Jesus is Divine you cannot define yourself as Christian.

I skimmed through and will not be able to address everything. (due to time constraints).

And your last line is rather insulting.

As I've stated before....
perhaps it is YOU that does not understand?

Perhaps it is YOU that is funcitoning outside the perameters of Christianity and yet still want to call
yourself a Christian.

Want to be a Christian Hidden?
Believe what the Christian church has taught FROM THE BEGINNING.



Here, that authority rested upon the angel of the LORD. He did not operate independently, nor merely as a messenger repeating instructions. He spoke with God’s voice, carried God’s judgment, and demanded obedience because God Himself was present in him. This is why rebellion against this messenger was treated as rebellion against God.

This principle does not stop in Exodus. It unfolds across the entire biblical story.

Israel itself was separated for the Name: “So shall they put my name upon the people of Israel, and I will bless them.” (Numbers 6:27)

Later, James explains that God is gathering a people for His Name (Acts 15:14). And Revelation looks forward to the day when that Name will be written in fullness upon the faithful:

“I will write on him the name of my God.” (Revelation 3:12)

The trajectory is clear: God places His Name first on a messenger, then on a people, and ultimately on those who overcome.

But the center of this revelation is Christ.

Jesus explicitly said: “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me.” (John 17:6)

I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known.” (John 17:26)

Christ did not merely speak about God’s Name, He embodied it. Paul confirms this with unmistakable clarity:

“For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.” (Colossians 1:19) See the issue @Lambano ?
“For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” (Colossians 2:9)

What was foreshadowed in Exodus, God placing His Name in a sent one, reaches its complete expression in Jesus. The angel bore the Name by delegation; Christ bears it in fullness. He is not simply authorized by God; He is the living manifestation of God’s character, purpose, and saving power in human form.

And remarkably, this is not where it ends.

Paul tells believers that this same fullness is God’s intention for us:

“That you may be filled with all the fullness of God.” (Ephesians 3:19) See the issue @Lambano ????

Just as the Name was in the angel, and just as it dwelt bodily in Christ, so now God works to place His Name upon His people through Christ by the Spirit. We are being shaped into living carriers of that Name, representatives of God’s authority and character in the world.

This reveals a consistent divine pattern:

God places His Name in whom He sends.
God reveals Himself through that vessel/agent.
God then extends that same calling to His people.

So Exodus 23:21 is not an isolated curiosity. It is a cornerstone. It shows us how God works: He does not remain distant. He puts His Name in a messenger, His fullness in His Son, and His life in those who belong to Christ.

To belong to Him, then, is not merely to believe certain doctrines, it is to become a people marked by His Name, transformed by His fullness, and sent in His authority.

That is the true power of “My name is in him.”

Will CTK understand these profound truths?
No...they won’t.

Will @GodsGrace understand them either?
No....they won’t.

Why not?
Because their thinking is already shaped by error, and that misunderstanding spills over into this forum.
 

Wrangler

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God is a plurality even in the OT.
False. Just because there is more than one type of heavenly being (Elohim) does not mean the person of God is plural.

One way to know this is the literal 1,000’s of time God refers to himself in the 2st person singular. See 1C. You shall have no gods before me.
 

GodsGrace

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So, why do you think Christianity needs to be defined? Christianity hasn't been monolithic since the Dark Ages. If it was even then. "Christianity" is currently an umbrella covering 45,000 denominations per Duck Duck Go's AI search assist.
I think Christianity needs to be defined so that people don't mistake me for a mulim?
Or a Jew?
Or some pagan religion invented a couple of hundred years ago?

You call yourself Christian.
And yet I don't know what that means.
We'd have to hash over some doctrine in order to know if we believe the same teachings.

Do Muslims find it necessary to debate what each person believes?
Do Jews?

No. Just we Christians have this problem.


Christianity (the belief system) is defined by adherence to certain, fundamental, doctrines. I call these tenets to differentiate from some teachings that could be debated without leaving the confines of The Christian faith or belief system.

I've posted them a few times now.
Here they are again:

THE DEITY OF JESUS - THE CORE TENET
THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE
JESUS' SACRIFICE FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS
THE RESURRECTION: BOTH OF JESUS AND MANKIND EVENTUALLY

If a group, denomination, church does not HOLD to the above...
it fails to meet the REQUIREMENTS of the CHRISTIAN FAITH.

CHRISTIANITY has a definition.

It is not up to any one on this thread to define a RELIGION that is already defined from the beginning.


Why this is so difficult to understand shows how far Christianity has come in having NO DEFINITON.
 

GodsGrace

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I was going to call them "sects", but that word has a homonym problem.

If we were to define "Christianity", most of us would probably define it so that includes all our own beliefs and excludes the other guys'. (I think I picked a bad week to give up being cynical.)
The above is the problem.

It's not UP TO US to define Christianity.

It is ALREADY defined.

If a denomination/church does not adhere to the definition...
IT IS NOT CHRISTIAN in their BELIEF SYSTEM.
 

GodsGrace

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False. Just because there is more than one type of heavenly being (Elohim) does not mean the person of God is plural.

One way to know this is the literal 1,000’s of time God refers to himself in the 2st person singular. See 1C. You shall have no gods before me.
Did I mention elohims?

Learn the difference.
 
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