Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Grailhunter]

In the Bible, angels do not directly give Jesus a new name, but when announcing Jesus' birth to Mary and Joseph, **they explicitly instructed the name of Jesus and its meaning**:

1. **Luke 1:31**
The angel Gabriel said to Mary:
"You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him **Jesus** (Ἰησοῦς, Yeshua)."
The name "Jesus" in Hebrew is **Yeshua (יֵשׁוּעַ)**, meaning **"Yahweh is salvation"** or "Yahweh saves."

2. **Matthew 1:21**
The angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and said:
"You are to give him the name **Jesus**, because he will save his people from their sins."
Here again, the **redemptive mission** of the name "Jesus" is emphasized.

3. **Isaiah 9:6** (Old Testament prophecy)
Although this is not a direct account of an angel giving a name, the prophet Isaiah prophesied titles for the Messiah:
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called: **Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace**."
These are **honorific titles** describing Jesus' identity, not names themselves.

**Summary:**
In the Bible, angels instructed that Jesus' name is **"Jesus,"** and explained its meaning and redemptive mission. Additionally, there are many titles for Jesus in the Bible (such as "Christ," "Son of Man," "Immanuel," etc.), but the name **"Jesus"** was directly revealed by the angels.


I remember in the other version, the name is another word Emmanuel? If I remember or spell the word right.....

Emmanuel means the God with Jesus, cuz God not with anyone or any man only Jesus.

Look this stuff in the actual Greek scriptures.

 

[Adventageous]

I get it from the Bible and college.
And the word Jesus does not appear in the scriptures.
No J's in the scriptures.....Yob Yoshua Yericho, they are all Y's
Easy enough to look this stuff up

I understand the material you have presented, and would like to share with you some information, and it is already covered in my book, see the chapter on the name of God - Godhead - The Eternal Heavenly Trio : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

In Hebrew, I have the charts here - Hebrew Pictograph And Script Chart Douglas N Petrovich Image : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Hebrew letter ( י ) is "jod", see Psa. 119:73:

- Psa_119:73 JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.​

Some think that there was no "j" sound in Hebrew, but, as my book, and others have shown, that is mistaken - Widely Held False Belief That There Was No “J” In Biblical Hebrew

Some may indeed pronounce it like a "y, Y", but in the English language, it is a "j, J" sound. For instance, how is this word "Jerusalem" pronounced in English? It is pronounced like (soft) "g", g-air-ooh-sah-lehm. How is this word pronounced in English, "Jesus"?

So, even spelling it like YHWH / YHVH, it is still pronounced, "JEHOVAH", and from the OT, Joshua to Jesus of the NT. This comes directly from the Rabbis and their writings themselves, as evidenced in the book (first link).

The "w" in YHWH / JHVH, is actually given in the Germanic, and thus the 'w" is actually a "v" ("vee") sound, which certain English scholars, unaware of the Germanic influence of the "w", pronounce it incorrectly. In German "volkswagen" is actually pronounced "folksvagen" (people vehicle).

Even Christian hymn writers, going back many years write it as "Jehovah", and "Jesus" (English coming from Hebrew, into koine Greek, into Latin, into English) . I am not aware of any early hymns that use the English letters "YHWH", or "Yeshua", "Yashua", &c.

As for instance (cited in my book):

“... Following the Middle Ages, before and after the Protestant Reformation, some churches and public buildings across Europe were decorated with variants and cognates of “Jehovah”. For example, the coat of arms of Plymouth (UK) City Council bears the Latin inscription, Turris fortissima est nomen Jehova !'°°! (English, “The name of Jehovah is the strongest tower"), derived from Proverbs 18:10.

Lyrics of some Christian hymns, for example, “Guide me, O thou great Jehovah”, [07 include “Jehovah”. The form also appears in some reference books and novels, appearing several times in the novel The Greatest Story Ever Told, by Catholic author Fulton Oursler. !'05] ...” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JehovahZzOther usage

Other hymns include (but are not limited to): “Before Jehovah's Awe-Full Throne" and “The Lord Jehovah Reigns” (Isaac Watts, 1674-1748); “Sing to the Great Jehovah's Praise" (Charles Wesley, 1707-1788); and “Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah” (William Williams, 1717-1791).

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Adventageous,

So, even spelling it like YHWH / YHVH, it is still pronounced, "JEHOVAH",

Looking at Strong's #3068, Jehovah is arrived at by using the vowel points of Adonai, while # 3069 is arrived at by using the vowel points of Elohim. Thus Jehovah is an incorrect rendition of the YHWH Name.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

If a person reads thru this thread.. It appears that the answer to your question is NO.
Just look at the nonsense the trinity debaters for a living post! It's as if they can't read. They are clearly spiritually discerned about many things!
This thread is very revealing and I haven't even read most of it. the things they come out with shows clearly who their daddy still is. There is no regeneration or illumination at all. It's like we are fighting wild beasts. They ignore, deflect, twist, and accuse- and that about sums it up.

The above is obvious just judging from some of the responses you've received.
Yes. Some do not understand what they must believe to be defined as Christian and yet continue in their rantings as if THEY have the authority to change the Christian Religion. (I say RELIGION).

I'm sorry to say that I've had to remove myself from my own thread because of the nonsense I've been reading and am no longer able to digest it. This reply is our of respect/courtesy to you.

I was considering having it locked...
not sure.
Maybe it's good to see how misunderstood the Christian religion is by some that claim to be Christian but want to change a religion that has been practiced for 2 thousand years and established by Jesus, the Apostles and those the Apostles taugth that carried on this religion.

I'm sure you understand why I'm using the word RELIGION instead of FAITH.
Unfortunately, not all understand.

 

[Grailhunter]

I understand the material you have presented, and would like to share with you some information, and it is already covered in my book, see the chapter on the name of God - Godhead - The Eternal Heavenly Trio : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

In Hebrew, I have the charts here - Hebrew Pictograph And Script Chart Douglas N Petrovich Image : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Hebrew letter ( י ) is "jod", see Psa. 119:73:​

​

- Psa_119:73 JOD. Thy hands have made me and fashioned me: give me understanding, that I may learn thy commandments.​

Some think that there was no "j" sound in Hebrew, but, as my book, and others have shown, that is mistaken - Widely Held False Belief That There Was No “J” In Biblical Hebrew

Some may indeed pronounce it like a "y, Y", but in the English language, it is a "j, J" sound. For instance, how is this word "Jerusalem" pronounced in English? It is pronounced like (soft) "g", g-air-ooh-sah-lehm. How is this word pronounced in English, "Jesus"?

So, even spelling it like YHWH / YHVH, it is still pronounced, "JEHOVAH", and from the OT, Joshua to Jesus of the NT. This comes directly from the Rabbis and their writings themselves, as evidenced in the book (first link).

The "w" in YHWH / JHVH, is actually given in the Germanic, and thus the 'w" is actually a "v" ("vee") sound, which certain English scholars, unaware of the Germanic influence of the "w", pronounce it incorrectly. In German "volkswagen" is actually pronounced "folksvagen" (people vehicle).

Even Christian hymn writers, going back many years write it as "Jehovah", and "Jesus" (English coming from Hebrew, into koine Greek, into Latin, into English) . I am not aware of any early hymns that use the English letters "YHWH", or "Yeshua", "Yashua", &c.

As for instance (cited in my book):

“... Following the Middle Ages, before and after the Protestant Reformation, some churches and public buildings across Europe were decorated with variants and cognates of “Jehovah”. For example, the coat of arms of Plymouth (UK) City Council bears the Latin inscription, Turris fortissima est nomen Jehova !'°°! (English, “The name of Jehovah is the strongest tower"), derived from Proverbs 18:10.

Lyrics of some Christian hymns, for example, “Guide me, O thou great Jehovah”, [07 include “Jehovah”. The form also appears in some reference books and novels, appearing several times in the novel The Greatest Story Ever Told, by Catholic author Fulton Oursler. !'05] ...” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JehovahZzOther usage

Other hymns include (but are not limited to): “Before Jehovah's Awe-Full Throne" and “The Lord Jehovah Reigns” (Isaac Watts, 1674-1748); “Sing to the Great Jehovah's Praise" (Charles Wesley, 1707-1788); and “Guide Me, O Thou Great Jehovah” (William Williams, 1717-1791).

According to the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and few professors here and in England....No J's and no J sounds before 1400 AD. In fact they thought the J sound was something a person made when they were sick, maybe a sneeze.
But old Hebrew vs Yada is not a real spoken language so we do not have tape recordings so I would not put to much effort into debating it.

The J slam....The letter J came out in 1400 AD but was not popular until the time of Shakespeare....around 1600.
At that point they started pushing the J's on everything....a language change....Even in history for example Julius Caesar is not pronounced with a J in Greek or Latin.

Shakespeare was very influential and that time the King James Version was written in his style of poetic language, not the spoken English of the time. When the King James Version first came out the word Ἰησοῦς / Iésous was used for the name of the Christ. In later revision the word Jesus was used....but no one knows where the word Jesus came from. No Greek word can be translated to Jesus....translating Jesus back to Greek the two closest Greek words are Zeus and a horse call.

Iésous is a Greek would that means healer, that is why finding someone with this name in history is difficult. Yeshua's name was said to be popular and Christ's mother....Miriam would not give her son a Greek name.

So anyway believe what you want....you can check it out but I am not going to put much effort into debating it.

 

[Wrangler]

Know what YOUR problem is Wrangler?

Yes, yes I know what my problem is; interacting with your contempt.

this mouth says the same to YOU.

Well, this is because your brain can't reach that far.

Are you dumb?

So, I’ll fix my problem by putting you on ignore. Keep worshipping the Lord with that mouth.

 

[Wrangler]

Good post.

The apostles understood ‘inhabited’ to mean a manifestation of God’s Spirit Word in Jesus (mind), rather than the notion of a duality of natures of God becoming a being who coexisted with sin's flesh, which we know is impossible.

Another double standard is making the distinction of being inhabited by a demon is NOT said to make the person a 2-person person.

 

[Wrangler]

You must use a different bible translation than mine.

Certainly.

KJV

Why would anyone rely on the worst translation available in English?

Unless of course you must skip over those texts that contradict your ideas.

Agh! To rely on error in the worst translation. Odd play for the Trade Federation.

 

[Wrangler]

The whole problem with this forum is that there is no enforcing the rules. Statement of faith is ignored and they tag themselves as Christians anyway, constantly.

What is someone who follows Jesus called?

They need to be IGNORED by all Christians.

In the alternative to ostracizing those who you don’t agree on every doctrinal point, you could just acknowledge the legitimate points made - even if you don’t agree with it.

For instance, I told a newbie that Scripture explicitly says what day Adam was created. It does not say what day Eve was created. One may engage in eisegesis and read into things, do a math substitution to calculate a day. However, this does not have to divide us - if you don’t make it so. As one pastor said, you’ll be surprised what isn’t a big deal IF YOU DON’T MAKE IT A BIG DEAL.

 

[soberxp]

What is someone who follows Jesus called?

In the alternative to ostracizing those who you don’t agree on every doctrinal point, you could just acknowledge the legitimate points made - even if you don’t agree with it.

Agree.

For instance, I told a newbie that Scripture explicitly says what day Adam was created. It does not say what day Eve was created. One may engage in eisegesis and read into things, do a math substitution to calculate a day. However, this does not have to divide us - if you don’t make it so. As one pastor said, you’ll be surprised what isn’t a big deal IF YOU DON’T MAKE IT A BIG DEAL.

Interesting.

 

[Wrangler]

What did Jesus need redeeming from?

Why don’t you explain what Jesus needed redeeming from?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why don’t you explain what Jesus needed redeeming from?

PS95 would rather be right in his own mind than broaden his view of the Lord and the purpose of his life. Any attempt to reason with him would likely fall on deaf ears, and we both know that even if I were to present ten verses teaching the same truth, he would still reject them all.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Would you like to reply to my question? WHO IS THE WORD OF GOD?
Please read these passages-

2 Peter 3:5-7
5For when they maintain this, they willfully forget that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water.
WHO IS THE WORD OF GOD?

PSALM 33
6By the word of YHWH the heavens were made,

And by the breath of His mouth all their hosts.

7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;

He puts the depths in storehouses.

8Let all the earth fear the LORD;

Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

9For He spoke, and it was done;

He commanded, and it stood firm.

WHO SPOKE in v 9? THE WORD--- see verse 6.


Heb 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.


Again- WHO IS THE WORD OF GOD?
John 1:1,3 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
ALL THINGS WERE MADE through Him and without HIM NOTHING was made that was made.

WHO is the Word of God?

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Just reading through this is enough to ascertain your own level of study....

It seems as if you cannot discern from the very Scripture you quote, that you have ignored the upper and lower case in the translation you used....no need for a NWT.

“The word of God” (small “w”) is the word that God himself speaks, whether that is written or spoken, it is God’s will being expressed, by him through a spokesman....often by his prophets, but usually by his firstborn Son, who was his “logos” from “the beginning”.

When you see a capital “W”....”The Word of God”....that is where the title of Jesus Christ is indicated.
Perhaps it is you who needs to read those verses again.....and see your error.

Col 1:15-20, where you highlighted just one phrase while ignoring the rest is classic.
Allow me to show you what you should have highlighted....

“15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

How can a human be the image of one who is invisible? An image is a reflection.
How is Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” without being part of that creation?
How are all things created “through” him and “for” him? For whom?
How is Jesus ”the beginning”? God didn’t have a “beginning”. (Rev 3:14)
How is he “the firstborn from the dead”? He was not the first human to be resurrected.
How does he “come to have first place in everything” if he is God? This is future tense.
How are all things “reconciled” to the Father through the blood of the Son?

Perhaps learn to study with some intelligence because understanding the difference between a “what” and a “who” is kindergarten stuff....but Paul said that there is a certain kind of “blindness” that doesn’t allow the “mind” to process what is clearly stated in “the word of God”....which is the Scriptures. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

I’ll ignore the rest of your diatribe. The best form of defence is attack when you don’t have the truth and there is an agenda to support....I understand why you cannot be wrong....but the judge of all of us will finish the lesson. We will all know then, if we have ‘passed muster’....”sheep or goat”?
We will be the last to know. (Matt 7:21-23) No excuses will be accepted.

 

[Hiddenthings]

What I appreciate about questions like this is that, if we allow them to draw us into the Word with a genuine desire to find answers, God is able to work through them. But if we simply let such questions slip past and move on, believers like @PS95 will never have the opportunity to learn or grow in the knowledge of God.

How can a human be the image of one who is invisible? An image is a reflection.

Jesus cannot be the substance of what is being imaged just in the same way we cannot be literal Christ - Romans 8:29

How is Jesus “the firstborn of all creation” without being part of that creation?

This is the key to understand Colossians 1:18 "who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

Jesus is the first person to be given immortality and now lives for evermore.

How are all things created “through” him and “for” him? For whom?

Yahweh’s Logos, through His foreknowledge and determinate counsel planned to have a Promised Son who would declare His Father and God's righteousness by overcoming the sin's flesh on the cross.

Pre-existence is impossible.

How is Jesus ”the beginning”? God didn’t have a “beginning”. (Rev 3:14)

Rev 1:18 also - this verse carries no weight at all if Christ pre-existed! No Glory can be rejoiced in if Jesus previously held immortality and divine nature. The inheritance and giving of life through the promises is the same for Christ as it is for us.

How is he “the firstborn from the dead”? He was not the first human to be resurrected.

First to be granted eternal life! If this is denied then PS95's hope is in vain and he is without Christ and Life.

As David wrote, “He (Jesus) asked life of You (God), and You (God) gave it to him, length of days forever and ever” (Psalm 21:4).
Jesus affirmed, “The Father has granted the Son to have life in Himself” (John 5:26).
Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life” (John 6:35) and, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father (for Life) except through me” (John 14:6).

The moment you claim that Christ previously possessed this life in any way, you are forced to accept that the entire story of Christ is a charade, a pretense of a God too weak to raise a mortal Son and redeem him from the power of death. @Wrangler

How does he “come to have first place in everything” if he is God? This is future tense.

Having obeyed even to the death on the cross, God highly exalted him and granted him a unique inheritance enjoyed by no other created being, not even the highest of the angels. God’s plan of redemption was first revealed in His only-begotten Son, and everything that exists has been designed around Christ’s existence, so that he might be the central focus of creation. First in everything!

How are all things “reconciled” to the Father through the blood of the Son?

Romans 3:21–22 “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.”

In putting the flesh to death (Victory), Christ declared God’s righteousness through his perfect obedience. His example opened the way for others to follow, crucifying the flesh and its passions in their own lives.

Believers are called to do the same today!

Romans 6:6; Galatians 5:24.

Only those who take part in the eternal covenant will enjoy Life.

 

[HealthyShape]

They need to be IGNORED by all Christians. They WANT you to reply to them so they can spew their lies.

Either ignored or constantly reminded that they are not orthodox Christians, but heretics/sectarians, outside of church, outside of ecumenical creeds etc. So that new readers are not confused with their misleading label (when moderators here do not care).

 

[HealthyShape]

If you read what is written to you, you would know that this was a response to something you wrote to me....let me show you....

You said “case closed” but provided no evidence to support your argument. A case cannot be closed without all the facts being presented.
To which I replied...
“Case closed...or mind closed? The mind is a gateway to the heart....a closed mind results in a closed heart.

Present your evidence rather than unsubstantiated claims....”

I addressed your ignorant accusations and asked for substantiation that the NWT tries to “delete verses from the Bible”.
It was apparently easier for you to present a distraction rather than present your evidence.

You don’t like the arguments I am presenting, because you cannot address them scripturally.
I have addressed all the Scripture presented to me without ignorant or uneducated responses.
I am an avid student of the Bible and I know what it teaches.....those who only know “church theology” are stumped by Scripture because they don’t know what the Bible as a whole teaches. They are taught only cherry picked verses of it, which are taken largely out of context and contradict other Scripture.

If you would like to present some evidence for your accusations, I am happy to show you that you are only believing what others have said.....hear-say is not evidence.....please show us this evidence.

You have been provided plenty of evidence, no need to repeat it again and again.

And the case is closed since the first centuries. Jesus is God - in the Bible, in the apostolic teachings of the first church and in the ecumenical creeds. The case is not open till you personally accept it.

 

[HealthyShape]

Facts are facts. Are there:

1. like 10 really distinct denominations. The rest are just various local churches names, but without a real difference in theology or structure?
2. 45,000 denominations?

Maybe this should be its own thread.

1.

 

[HealthyShape]

For a time truth was preserved through the inspired apostles, but after they fell asleep in the Lord, human councils began to distort it, blending it with human mythology and philosophy. The most extreme expression of these doctrinal developments can be seen in Mariology, which is the most heinous of all false teachings and a direct result of the triune dogma. Not only do these false teachings have no foundation in Scripture, but to defend them, one must invent more falsehoods, and before long, you end up with 2,867 catechisms.

Mariology is not in any ecumenical creeds. Denominations can have their specifics, but the basic theology like Trinity must be held to be called Christian.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Mariology is not in any ecumenical creeds. Denominations can have their specifics, but the basic theology like Trinity must be held to be called Christian.

Mariology is derived from the doctrine of the Trinity as a matter of logical extension, but the doctrinal development of the Trinity itself is fundamentally illogical.

 

[Wrangler]

1.

What in your opinion are the 10 major differences in these 10 major different denominations?