Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

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Wrangler

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I’m not asking whether John knew the divine name — of course he did. I’m asking whether you accept what John says about the Logos. In John 1:1–3 the Logos already exists “in the beginning,” is “with God,” and “all things were made through him.” Then John 1:14 identifies this Logos as the One who “became flesh.”
You're imposing your dogma onto the text. Not made through "him." That is a very bad translation and analyzing this is the only thread I ever started on the Ancient Greek houtas, which means that.

There is no verse in all of Scripture that states that Jesus is the word of God.

John 1:1 does not mention Jesus at all. It was God's plan, his thought, his logos that was with him from the beginning. Rather than connect this to verse 14, try connecting it to v45.

Finally, John does not say that God became flesh. This is primarily because that never happened. Again, connect all this to v45.
 
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HealthyShape

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Back during the time of the Apostles while teaching the true original Gospel they were called in the Greek christianous meaning “Christ-like ones” or “belonging to Christ.” The term was originally used by opponents, but it affirmed the believers’ identity and was later adopted by the brethren themselves (Acts 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16). It indicates that the disciples were followers of the Anointed One. The name was evidently coined by Gentiles in Antioch, since unbelieving Jews would not have acknowledged a living Christ with followers. Instead, Jews typically referred to believers as “those of this way” (Acts 9:2) or “Nazarenes” (Acts 24:5).

Today it’s a generic term applied to over 45,000 denominations, many of which hold varying doctrinal positions.

What we can agree on is very few of them know the true Eph 4:4-5.

When the Master returns this truth comes with him.
The apostolic church did not end (or is not stuck) in the book of Acts. And there are like 10 really distinct denominations. The rest are just various local churches names, but without a real difference in theology or structure.

I notice the "45,000 denominations" is used mainly by people who want to weaken or undermine the unity of Christians to the point that anybody (read: them) can claim any nonsense and still tell others they are Christians.
 

Hiddenthings

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The apostolic church did not end (or is not stuck) in the book of Acts. And there are like 10 really distinct denominations. The rest are just various local churches names, but without a real difference in theology or structure.

I notice the "45,000 denominations" is used mainly by people who want to weaken or undermine the unity of Christians to the point that anybody (read: them) can claim any nonsense and still tell others they are Christians.
Under similar circumstances, the Jews were encouraged to come out of Judaism. In the same way, this principle is applied to the Mother Harlot and her daughters. As I said all will be revealed at his coming.
 

HealthyShape

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Under similar circumstances, the Jews were encouraged to come out of Judaism. In the same way, this principle is applied to the Mother Harlot and her daughters. As I said all will be revealed at his coming.
Orthodoxy is already revealed - in the Bible, in the apostolic Church and in the ecumenical creeds. We are not left blind till some distant future. The Holy Spirit has been given to church already, to lead her into truth.
 

Wrangler

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He is the New Creation who has a beginning, an end and now lives for evermore. Remove "Creator" from your sentence and you have Biblical truth.
Another point of Biblical truth is who the savior is, or rather, who the saviors are. In the Bible, agents are frequently invoked. One person doing things through another person. I use the analogy of drowning at sea to explain.

Imagine you are on a ship that begins to sink. Finally, it goes down and you are treading water in rough seas. Fortunately, before the boat sunk, you called out to the Coast Guard for help. A captain decides to rescue you, risking his own ship and crew to save you. When the ship arrives, an Ensign actually throws you a life preserver and pulls you to the safety of the ship. Who saved you; the captain or the ensign?

(The answer is YHWH and his Anointed, YHWH through his Anointed.)
 

Hiddenthings

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Orthodoxy is already revealed - in the Bible, in the apostolic Church and in the ecumenical creeds. We are not left blind till some distant future. The Holy Spirit was given to church already, to lead her into truth.
For a time truth was preserved through the inspired apostles, but after they fell asleep in the Lord, human councils began to distort it, blending it with human mythology and philosophy. The most extreme expression of these doctrinal developments can be seen in Mariology, which is the most heinous of all false teachings and a direct result of the triune dogma. Not only do these false teachings have no foundation in Scripture, but to defend them, one must invent more falsehoods, and before long, you end up with 2,867 catechisms.
 

Hiddenthings

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Another point of Biblical truth is who the savior is, or rather, who the saviors are. In the Bible, agents are frequently invoked. One person doing things through another person. I use the analogy of drowning at sea to explain.

Imagine you are on a ship that begins to sink. Finally, it goes down and you are treading water in rough seas. Fortunately, before the boat sunk, you called out to the Coast Guard for help. A captain decides to rescue you, risking his own ship and crew to save you. When the ship arrives, an Ensign actually throws you a life preserver and pulls you to the safety of the ship. Who saved you; the captain or the ensign?

(The answer is YHWH and his Anointed, YHWH through his Anointed.)
To prove this point we must see who it was who secured eternal redemption!

Hebrews 9:12 He entered once for all into the holy places, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

The issue for the Christian is this: they should ask themselves, ‘Why did Jesus need redeeming, and from what?’ Yet most have never even opened that door. If they knew the answer, they would certainly want to take part in it.
 

Wrangler

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To prove this point we must see who it was who secured eternal redemption!

Hebrews 9:12 He entered once for all into the holy places, not by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.

The issue for the Christian is this: they should ask themselves, ‘Why did Jesus need redeeming, and from what?’ Yet most have never even opened that door. If they knew the answer, they would certainly want to take part in it.
This deserves its own thread!
 
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Wrangler

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The apostolic church did not end (or is not stuck) in the book of Acts. And there are like 10 really distinct denominations. The rest are just various local churches names, but without a real difference in theology or structure.

I notice the "45,000 denominations" is used mainly by people who want to weaken or undermine the unity of Christians to the point that anybody (read: them) can claim any nonsense and still tell others they are Christians.
Facts are facts. Are there:
  1. like 10 really distinct denominations. The rest are just various local churches names, but without a real difference in theology or structure?
  2. 45,000 denominations?
Maybe this should be its own thread.
 

Hiddenthings

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This deserves its own thread!
A Christian might say that the Lord secured eternal redemption for others, not for himself. But in making this claim, they risk undermining Christ’s status as the firstborn from the dead. If death had no dominion over him (completely and utterly), then his strong crying and tears to God for being saved would be in vain, and the very principles of the atonement would collapse.

I don't know any Christians in this website who want to understand the Lords true nature, his death and his resurrection.

They all see double!
 

JustMe

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Facts are facts. Are there:
  1. like 10 really distinct denominations. The rest are just various local churches names, but without a real difference in theology or structure?
  2. 45,000 denominations?
Maybe this should be its own thread.
Perhaps there should also be a new discussion about how the skepticism of several prominent 2nd-century so-called church fathers planted the harmful ideas that destroyed authentic early Christianity.

One of the main causes, if not the primary cause, that led to the demise of true Christianity was a widespread disbelief in what Yeshua truly became at his anointing. It is my firm opinion and belief that 'they' outright refused to accept the reality that God, His word, and the Spirit of the Father inhabited His Son. They were unwilling to believe this truth, so they went too far, influenced by Greek mythology and philosophy, and created a different, non-scriptural Son of God who was equal to His Father as the same God. The rest is now well-known history.

And as a result, they demoted the pivotal act of Yeshua's anointing, the centerpiece of how and why the Messiah was victorious in his mission to the Cross, to some type of simple rite of passage or signal of obedience to serve his Father.
 

Hiddenthings

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One of the main causes, if not the primary cause, that led to the demise of true Christianity was a widespread disbelief in what Yeshua truly became at his anointing. It is my firm opinion and belief that 'they' outright refused to accept the reality that God, His word, and the Spirit of the Father inhabited His Son.
Good post.

The apostles understood ‘inhabited’ to mean a manifestation of God’s Spirit Word in Jesus (mind), rather than the notion of a duality of natures of God becoming a being who coexisted with sin's flesh, which we know is impossible.
 

Wrangler

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the Spirit of the Father inhabited His Son.
I make this point all the time. Many translations render it in-dwelling, implying Jesus is like a container. A container is different from what it contains.
created a different, non-scriptural Son of God who was equal to His Father as the same God.

This is not merely non-Scriptural but anti-Scriptural. Jesus said the Father is greater than he and the father is stronger than anyone. This is not equality.
 
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Aunty Jane

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This is unending with you. You have been given plenty of evidence, you just reject it and then ask for it again. It is like with flat earthers and other people who are closed minded.

People who reject education, the consensus of experts and critical thinking are impossible to convince. You simply blindly trust your Jehovah Witnesses sect.
If you read what is written to you, you would know that this was a response to something you wrote to me....let me show you....
I did not expect that a Jehovah Witness, who actually has no business to be active in Christians only section of this forums, would accept that Jesus is God. You will rather try to delete the verses from the Bible, as your New World translation does and based upon similarly bad and ignorant/uneducated arguments you are presenting.
You said “case closed” but provided no evidence to support your argument. A case cannot be closed without all the facts being presented.
To which I replied...
“Case closed...or mind closed? The mind is a gateway to the heart....a closed mind results in a closed heart.

Present your evidence rather than unsubstantiated claims....”

I addressed your ignorant accusations and asked for substantiation that the NWT tries to “delete verses from the Bible”.
It was apparently easier for you to present a distraction rather than present your evidence.

You don’t like the arguments I am presenting, because you cannot address them scripturally.
I have addressed all the Scripture presented to me without ignorant or uneducated responses.
I am an avid student of the Bible and I know what it teaches.....those who only know “church theology” are stumped by Scripture because they don’t know what the Bible as a whole teaches. They are taught only cherry picked verses of it, which are taken largely out of context and contradict other Scripture.

If you would like to present some evidence for your accusations, I am happy to show you that you are only believing what others have said.....hear-say is not evidence.....please show us this evidence.
 
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Wrangler

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You said “case closed” but provided no evidence to support your argument.
Indeed, "case closed" is a conclusion not an argument. It's a way to declare victory without having to take on the burden of ... you know ... winning. sml

When I win an argument, I like to linger on the winning argument, not declare it over. For instance, at work recently we put in a new Quality system, which brought us to a point of defining defects categories. The team wondered of the scope of that. It dawned on me that is the output to another system, thereby connecting the systems.

Saying case closed reminds me of this guy.

1770237364182.png
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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You are pretending lIke this is referring to 1 person rather than two persons.

Actually there is only ONE God, only ONE Person Who is God.

All this back and forth arguing over this is due to people trying to put God in a box so to speak using their carnal understanding and trying to explain God from a human perspective instead of simply accepting what God says about Himself in His Word. He would know.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

And then the Lord said this...
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!


What's your definition of "person"?

A better question would be where in scripture did the Lord says He was three different "persons"
 

Hiddenthings

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Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!
This is true in terms of unity and purpose of mind. However, the Spirit is the Logos, the power and reasoning word of God, not a literal person.

In effect, today both the Father and the Son possess the Spirit, the Word-power of Yahweh, though it is understood by everyone in this forum that the Son remains subject to the Father in all things.
 

Aunty Jane

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Actually there is only ONE God, only ONE Person Who is God.
If there is only one person.....who is God talking to in Gen 1:26...or in the garden of Gethsemane? Does God talk to himself and pray to himself? Can he be in three different places at the same time?
All this back and forth arguing over this is due to people trying to put God in a box so to speak using their carnal understanding and trying to explain God from a human perspective instead of simply accepting what God says about Himself in His Word. He would know.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Read in Hebrew it says....”Hear O Israel: Yahweh our God is one Yahweh”.
Jesus is not Yahweh....monotheism does not allow for any other God by any other name. (Psalm 83:18)
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
The apostles affirm that their “one God” is “the Father”....not the Son. Jesus is the one “by whom” or “through whom” all things were created. (John 1:2-3; Col 1:15-17)
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
If Jesus was God he could not be the “one mediator between God and men”....otherwise we would need a mediator between him and ourselves......do you even know what a mediator is?
And then the Lord said this...
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.
You would also know that this is a spurious verse....
Read it in a better translation....
“For there are three witness bearers: the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

A better question would be where in scripture did the Lord says He was three different "persons"
Good question....where did Jesus ever say he was God? Where did God ever say that his son was his equal?
Who was the God of Israel? It was Yahweh.....he was “one” not three.
Jesus was Jewish so he worshipped the same God....and taught from Jewish Scripture.

Even after his return to heaven, the Father was still his “God”.
Rev 3:12...Jesus said...
“The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

Jesus is given a “new name” that he doesn’t reveal.
God only has one name. (Psalm 83:18) Jesus has more than one name.

If God was three different “persons” in one entity, then “multiple personality disorder” would not be classified as a mental illness....
We are made in God’s image....so it would be normal....why do you think it’s not?
 

Brakelite

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He is the New Creation who has a beginning, an end and now lives for evermore. Remove "Creator" from your sentence and you have Biblical truth.
You must use a different bible translation than mine.

“13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. ”
Colossians 1:13-20 KJV

“1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; ”
Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ”
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV

“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ”
John 1:1, 3, 10, 14 KJV

Unless of course you must skip over those texts that contradict your ideas.
 

Hiddenthings

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You must use a different bible translation than mine.

“13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. ”
Colossians 1:13-20 KJV

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the red text - no doubt if you gaze at it long enough you will begin to see some inherent issues with your understanding.

Does verse 18 help you and if so what implication does this have on your inference?

“1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; ”
Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV
Hmmm that old chestnut!

“By whom [through whom, R.S.V.] he made the worlds [ages, R.V. margin; Greek: aiōn]” (Heb. 1:2).

The term worlds in this passage does not refer to the physical earth or the planets of the universe, but to the successive ages or dispensations through which God’s purpose unfolds on the earth. The Greek word used here is not kosmos, the common term for the created world, but aiōn, meaning an age, an indefinite period of time, or a divinely ordered dispensation.

This distinction is crucial. Scripture presents Jesus Christ not merely as the agent (purpose) by which the physical creation was made, but as the chief cornerstone of every age of God’s redemptive plan. From the antediluvian era before the Flood, through the patriarchal age of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Mosaic age under the Law, the Gentile age, and ultimately the Millennial age, Christ stands at the centre of God’s purpose. All ages are framed, directed, and brought to completion through the knowledge of him.

The promise of redemption begins at the very dawn of human history. The Seed was promised to Eve in Genesis 3:15, establishing Christ as the hope of humanity long before his birth. Abraham, too, “rejoiced to see [Christ’s] day: and he saw it, and was glad” (John 8:56), a truth reinforced by Paul’s declaration that the gospel was “preached before unto Abraham” (Gal. 3:8). Faith in Christ, therefore, was never an afterthought, it was the foundation of God’s dealings with humanity from the beginning.

Even the animal sacrifices prescribed under the Law of Moses were not ends in themselves. They pointed forward to Christ, foreshadowing the perfect and final sacrifice to come. As shadows give way to substance, so the sacrificial system found its meaning and fulfilment in him. In every age, God’s purpose moves steadily toward Christ, and through Christ, to the ultimate restoration of all things.

In this way, the “ages” were made through him, not as abstract spans of time, but as carefully ordered stages in a single, unified redemptive plan, all bearing witness to the supremacy and centrality of Jesus Christ.

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ”
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV

True it was "by him" that God made all things in this creation, and nothing exists without the Promised Son. To mean, God would not have created this epoch of time without the foreknowledge of Christ His Son.

“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. ”
John 1:1, 3, 10, 14 KJV

Unless of course you must skip over those texts that contradict your ideas.
Logos became - says it all really!

I’m confident that others reading our posts can see that your practice of quoting Scripture without interpretation reveals a certain naivety, one that reflects a blind acceptance of what you’ve been taught and the so-called knowledge you’ve assumed. In this response I led you to a verse in the hope you will peice together the right context and understanding the Apostles all held.

Let's see how you go.
 
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