What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?

[Exegesis]

They weren't immortal.

If no death existed before the Fall, then the only logical conclusion is that everything, including plants, animals, people, etc., did not die.

Therefore all life was immortal just like it will be in Heaven.

They did not eat from the Tree of Life.

I agree.

They ate fruit from trees, vegetables from the ground.

OK, so my question is how does the food itself not die by eating it?

When we eat plants, they die. If there is no death, then how does that work?

Ho do the plants not die after being eaten?

Animals did not eat eachother until sin came and distorted reality.

Assuming they were vegan or whatever, the plants that they eat would have died upon consuming.

How do you reconcile this contradiction with no death being in the world yet?

Eating food does not equal death.

I am referring to the plant itself being subject to death after being eaten.

Jesus' ressurrected immortal body ate food.

That's a different topic. That physiology is different than what the man and woman had before the Fall.

Angels can eat food.

OK.

Your concept is not logical. Your knowledge of scripture is flawed.

Do you have answers to my questions instead of jumping to conclusions?

Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. Gen.1:29

That verse is after the Fall, so yeah, they needed physical food like the kind we eat now.

 

[quietthinker]

What Does 'Surely Die' Mean?​

a compounded tooth ache that wont remit.

 

[Exegesis]

Hint...

Ezekiel 47:12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Immortal plants.

Assuming the living beings before the Fall ate 'immortal food', what were they really consuming?

 

[Exegesis]

Assuming the living beings before the Fall ate 'immortal food', what were they really consuming?

Something like this:

1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat

Get it?

Keep going:

John 4:34 (New International Version) "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work."

Imagine eating your instructions for how to live life. That would make things a lot easier, eh?

Christians: "Hey God, what are we supposed to do with ourselves?"
God: "Here, eat this."

Food that never dies. Amen?

You should know this:

Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Eating the Word of God.

Are you teaching the spiritual food version of Genesis, or are you teaching the 'nursery rhyme' milk version?

Hebrews 5:12 (English Standard Version) For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food.

Dumbing down the Bible to some fairy tale understanding makes the Word of God look ignorant to the rest of the world. Censorship makes things even worse. Do better would be my advice.

 

[Exegesis]

We are now on page 7 and not a single person has been able to debunk the OP.

 

[rvmb]

We are now on page 7 and not a single person has been able to debunk the OP.

Gen 2:17 .. for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
2 Pet 3:8 ..that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Gen 5:5 .. Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

 

[BrotherMJ]

There is spiritual death and physical death.Spiritual death meaning your spirit is dead and you are not alive to things of God.When you become born again,your spirit is made alive.For physical death,is when you die and start rotting..

 

[Aunty Jane]

We are now on page 7 and not a single person has been able to debunk the OP.

I’ll give it a go....

If no death existed before the Fall, then the only logical conclusion is that everything, including plants, animals, people, etc., did not die.

Therefore all life was immortal just like it will be in Heaven.

We know that man alone was created to “live forever” but that in the animal kingdom, a cycle of life is what perpetuated their species.
The two trees specifically mentioned in the Bible were representative of something important.....the criteria for life to be unending.....i.e. obedience to the commands of the Creator.
The formula was simple....obey and live....disobey and die.

Gen 3:22-24 states what happened and the consequences of their disobedience.

“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.” (ESV)

The choice was between life and death.....not heaven or hell.

“The tree of the knowledge of good and bad” represented God’s Sovereign right to set the limits of the free will he gave only to them. Obedience would have allowed them to partake of “the tree of life” the means by which God would extend their lives perpetually without ageing, sickness or death ever being experienced.

That is what they forfeited...no fairy tale, just a simple way to explain a simple concept.
God virtually set the humans here under his direction, and being made in his image and likeness, they would act under his authority in, first of all, “subduing” the land outside of the model garden that God made in Eden, and then spreading the boundaries of their paradise home, (along with the assistance of their children), “filling the earth” with those who would become their co-workers.
Again a fairly simple concept....not a fairy tale.

OK, so my question is how does the food itself not die by eating it?

When we eat plants, they die. If there is no death, then how does that work?

Ho do the plants not die after being eaten?

Now you get into the realms of fantasy....of course the vegetation cannot survive the digestive process of the creatures who were designed to eat it as fuel for their bodies. All creatures were designed to be vegetarians (Gen 1:29-30) God provided food abundantly for all living things, and on the basis of understanding that process, they knew that eating, drinking and breathing were the fundamentals of perpetuating life. They knew what death was because animals died...they saw with their own eyes that death is.....the opposite of life....so when God told them that if they disobeyed him, they “would surely die”...they knew exactly what he meant, and having advance warning of the consequences of eating the fruit that belonged exclusively to their Creator, they had no excuse, and the penalty would apply. They just didn’t know how long it would take for this once perfect organism to break down to the point of death.

There was no natural cause of death mentioned to them....death was a penalty, not a natural expectation.
The first experience of human death was the result of murder, when a jealous Cain murdered his younger brother.

Assuming they were vegan or whatever, the plants that they eat would have died upon consuming.

How do you reconcile this contradiction with no death being in the world yet?

Since humans alone were not created to die, we have no ‘program’ for death....it comes to us as a foreign “enemy”...something to be avoided at all costs.
Death in the animal kingdom and in the vegetation were natural....humans alone were to represent the Creator here, in being caretakers and zoo keepers, looking after their God-given home by creating more beautiful parks and gardens to reflect the model that God created in Eden.

As a perpetual assignment, maintaining that beauty would be a full time occupation as we see in any man made botanical garden on earth, which has a team of workers whose job it is to maintain a level of beauty for all to enjoy. They are never without a job, as are the zoo keepers who take care of the animals under their care.

I am referring to the plant itself being subject to death after being eaten.

Of course plants die...they were meant to be constantly renewed as fuel for the many creatures who were designed to live here on this earth. Who said plants and animals were supposed to live forever? Where is that ever mentioned?

That's a different topic. That physiology is different than what the man and woman had before the Fall.

I agree....but the body that Jesus materialised after his resurrection “in the spirit” was still capable of human activity...like eating and drinking....but the fact that Jesus could only “appear” to his disciples after death shows that the bodies he materialised were not always of the same appearance. On a couple of occasions he appeared with the wounds of his execution, but at other times there was no mention of them. The disciples didn’t always recognise him.

Jesus was a physical wreck before his death, as the Pharisees made sure that he was going to die a horrendous death. It would make no sense for God to give power to his Son and others to raise the dead, and heal the sick if he was going to raise Jesus in the same damaged body that he sacrificed.

Do you have answers to my questions instead of jumping to conclusions?

I think you are jumping to conclusions actually.....are you assuming that most people think that plants and animals are somehow living the same “life” as humans? Where are getting the idea that “death” in those realms is remotely the same as death for humankind? I don’t know anyone who believes that.

That verse is after the Fall, so yeah, they needed physical food like the kind we eat now.

It’s not actually....that verse is before the fall. And all living things knew exactly what God had provided as food for them. All were to be vegetarians......the only ‘carnivores’ were the carrion birds and animals, designed to be the ‘clean up crew’ for the organisms that died.
No sentient creature was designed to take the life of another....even for food.

Bacteria also play an important part in creation, but God doesn’t mention them....as mankind would take many centuries to even know they existed, humans saw how nature took care of everything.

How often do we see dead birds or animals in nature?.....the processes designed by the Creator, go to work straight away and death provides food for those designed for that process....everything works, but in this imperfect sin laden world, many of the natural processes have been interfered with.

God has promised to restore everything back to its original condition, (Rev 21:2-5) but first he must deal with rebellion and teach both humans and angels the value of obedience. Have we learned the lesson yet?

 

[Exegesis]

Alright @rvmb , let's see what you got...

Gen 2:17 .. for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
2 Pet 3:8 ..that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Gen 5:5 .. Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

There are several problems with the above.

First of all, Genesis 5:5 is referring to the Adam that was created on the sixth day. Genesis 2:17 is referring to the Adam created on the third day. These are two different individuals.

Second of all, 2 Pet 3:8 is referring to the Flood of Noah:

2 Peter 3:5-6 - For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.

It's also referring to end times. The verse has absolutely nothing to do with how long a person will live.

Third of all, changing the word 'day' to fit some false narrative not only breaks Genesis 2:17, but it breaks all of the other verses that use the same wording:

1 Kings 2:37 - For it shall be, that on the day thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

Now, let's try your super deluxe translation:

1 Kings 2:37 For it shall be, that on the day [thousand years] thou goest out, and passest over the brook Kidron, thou shalt know for certain that thou shalt surely die: thy blood shall be upon thine own head.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Let's try another:

1 Kings 2:42 - And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

Here is your super deluxe translation:

1 Kings 2:42 - And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, Know for a certain, on the day [thousand years] thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die? and thou saidst unto me, The word that I have heard is good.

Nope. It doesn't work. Sorry @rvmb .

 

[Exegesis]

There is spiritual death and physical death.Spiritual death meaning your spirit is dead and you are not alive to things of God.When you become born again,your spirit is made alive.For physical death,is when you die and start rotting..

Thanks @BrotherMJ . Welcome to the forum.

We will try the same test to see if your translation passes:

Genesis 20:7 - Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

Your translation:

Genesis 20:7 - Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die [spiritually die], thou, and all that are thine.

Bummer. That doesn't work.

Another:

Numbers 26:65 - For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die [spirituall die] in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Nope. Trying to put 'spiritually die' in place of surely die does not work one hundred percent of the time. It is a false teaching that most have fallen for, unfortunately. This is a fact, not opinion.

The worst part is that there is a 99.999% chance that no Christian will ever repent and correct themselves. It's one of the saddest things I have ever witnessed.

 

[Exegesis]

I’ll give it a go....

We know that man alone was created to “live forever”...

I'll have to stop right there. That is a false statement. Obviously the Four Beasts in Revelation are immortal. Angels are not human but are immortal. Ezekiel 47:12 describes trees that don't die. The list goes on. If you wish to believe that there is death in Heaven, then that is your choice.

The Bible teaches that death is swallowed up in victory. You contradict that fundamental concept and apply it only to humans. That makes God a liar. Death is death. I don't believe God is unable to do what he promises.

In your Heaven, death and decay are everywhere. Not mine. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[rvmb]

Alright @rvmb , let's see what you got...



There are several problems with the above.

First of all, Genesis 5:5 is referring to the Adam that was created on the sixth day. Genesis 2:17 is referring to the Adam created on the third day. These are two different individuals.

Second of all, 2 Pet 3:8 is referring to the Flood of Noah:



It's also referring to end times. The verse has absolutely nothing to do with how long a person will live.

Third of all, changing the word 'day' to fit some false narrative not only breaks Genesis 2:17, but it breaks all of the other verses that use the same wording:



Now, let's try your super deluxe translation:



That makes absolutely no sense.

Let's try another:



Here is your super deluxe translation:



Nope. It doesn't work. Sorry @rvmb .

.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I'll have to stop right there. That is a false statement. Obviously the Four Beasts in Revelation are immortal. Angels are not human but are immortal.

Which mean's by implication they cannot sin! Divine nature cannot sin - impossible!

 

[rvmb]

Alright @rvmb , let's see what you got...



There are several problems with the above.

First of all, Genesis 5:5 is referring to the Adam that was created on the sixth day. Genesis 2:17 is referring to the Adam created on the third day. These are two different individuals.

Second of all, 2 Pet 3:8 is referring to the Flood of Noah:



It's also referring to end times. The verse has absolutely nothing to do with how long a person will live.

Third of all, changing the word 'day' to fit some false narrative not only breaks Genesis 2:17, but it breaks all of the other verses that use the same wording:



Now, let's try your super deluxe translation:



That makes absolutely no sense.

Let's try another:



Here is your super deluxe translation:



Nope. It doesn't work. Sorry @rvmb .

First of all, Genesis 5:5 is referring to the Adam that was created on the sixth day. Genesis 2:17 is referring to the Adam created on the third day. These are two different individuals.

"""Here is your super deluxe translation:""
2 different 'Adams' ?
Please list the verses that support your 'deluxe translation' :)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'll have to stop right there. That is a false statement. Obviously the Four Beasts in Revelation are immortal.

Ummm....I was speaking about the earthly creation not those who reside in heaven....

Angels are not human but are immortal.

Do you know the difference between a mortal and an immortal?

If humans live in mortal flesh, does it mean that they have to die?.....or only that they can?

The scenario in Eden was that humans were given the opportunity to “live forever”...
Another way to describe the life they were offered, was “everlasting life”....or ”life without end”....UNLESS....they disobeyed God’s command. So mortal creatures were given the chance to “live forever”, and the means to achieve that was “the tree of life”.
Barring the way to the tree of life meant death for them....the ‘wages of their sin’.

Gen 3:22-24....
“Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.” (ESV)

If a creature can die, they are not immortal. A really simple concept.
Can angels die? Yes....but only God can take their lives. Humans cannot kill angels....nor can they kill God.

Angels need no external means of life support, like earthly creatures do. The two are differently designed to inhabit two completely different realms.

The Bible teaches that death is swallowed up in victory.

Yes...but what “death” had to be removed? The one that was not supposed to happen....
Since humans were not designed to die...it has remained a foreign element in our existence. Humans have been dying since the days of Adam and Eve....yet we have never developed a natural acceptance of it.

The first humans threw away the opportunity to live forever, but God had a plan to rescue their children. He sent his son to redeem them out of that debt.

You contradict that fundamental concept and apply it only to humans. That makes God a liar. Death is death. I don't believe God is unable to do what he promises.

Me either....but what did he actually promise? Show us where he ever offered eternal life to plants or animals....? The death that God would eliminate, was human death....the one that the devil had stolen from the human race, descended from Adam. To them alone he gave the reflection of himself....”made in his image”....everlasting life was part of that image.

I think you have the story all wrong....but you are free to believe whatever you wish.

In your Heaven, death and decay are everywhere. Not mine. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

“My heaven” is this earth...the place where God put human kind in the first place. It was never supposed to be a training ground for heaven...everlasting life in paradise will be restored under the rulership of God’s Kingdom....what does the Lord’s Prayer mean?

 

[Exegesis]

2 different 'Adams' ?
Please list the verses that support your 'deluxe translation' :)

Thanks @rvmb . I will create a new thread on this soon.

 

[Exegesis]

I appreciate you taking the time to post your thoughts @Aunty Jane and others.

 

[dak]

We are now on page 7 and not a single person has been able to debunk the OP.

The OP did not expound your actual position, it merely raised questions in preparation for the presentation of your position, which you laid out in post #5.

I've only offered four posts in this thread, and you responded only to my first post because I started out with things we appeared to agree upon, yet the three posts which followed did indeed debunk your position from post #5, and you ignored all of them, choosing not to respond. Should it matter whether my other three posts were directed to you or to someone else in your thread? If you are the OP-starter of the thread then that shouldn't matter either way because your position was being refuted by what was offered in those other three posts.

Let everyone keep in mind what the position of the thread author actually is, according to post #5 on the first page, that is that anyone who eats of the forbidden fruit will die both the first death and the second death within a period of twenty-four hours. This has not been proven nor can it be true: the Father is long suffering, not willing that any should perish, (the second death).

The thread author does not understand the true meaning of partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil: everyone knowingly sins for the first time, and that is sin, and the Father has provided the remedy for this through His Son. And as concerning the first man, the adam who partook of the forbidden fruit together with his wife: it is the Son of Man, (Ben Adam), who raised him/them from the spiritual separation, (dead), in Genesis 1:26-28, as proven by Psalms, Prophets, and scriptures including even the writings of Paul, (see my previous posts in this thread).

 

[Exegesis]

The OP did not expound your actual position, it merely raised questions in preparation for the presentation of your position, which you laid out in post #5.

OK.

I've only offered four posts in this thread, and you responded only to my first post because I started out with things we appeared to agree upon, yet the three posts which followed did indeed debunk your position from post #5, and you ignored all of them, choosing not to respond.

I didn't respond because, after seeing your views, I saw nothing that proved your case. You made the same mistakes as everyone else by changing words to fit your own narrative. This is why a verse by verse commentary is the only way to do this correctly. This is what I promised to @rvmb .

You and many others have a bad habit of paraphrasing and inserting leaven into said. It sounds great to those with short attention spans. My research is for those that are academic and looking for real answers as to why Genesis 1 and 2 allegedly contradict one another.

One cannot simply state "Genesis one and two are from different perspectives" and claim it is case closed and go pick their nose all day.

Again, people who study this stuff *KNOW* there hasn't been an answer yet that works. This is fact. No one mainstream has made Genesis 1 and 2 agree!

My solution is the only one that *does* work. Unfortunately, I am a nobody so I am not taken seriously.

Should it matter whether my other three posts were directed to you or to someone else in your thread? If you are the OP-starter of the thread then that shouldn't matter either way because your position was being refuted by what was offered in those other three posts.

Just because you or others post a response, that does not automatically mean that I have been refuted or debunked or whatever. I am very busy and I apologize if I cannot respond to all posts.

Let everyone keep in mind what the position of the thread author actually is, according to post #5 on the first page, that is that anyone who eats of the forbidden fruit will die both the first death and the second death within a period of twenty-four hours.

That warning was for the First Adam and Ishshah, not just 'anyone'. Nevertheless, we all partook. Whether it took 24hrs or less for the process to run its course for all of us here is something I do not know.

This has not been proven nor can it be true:

The fact that you are here on earth is all the proof you will ever need. The moment you were conceived is the end of when you partook of the Forbidden Fruit. In other words, you ate *before* you were conceived. You knew exactly what you were doing. You left your first love. Remember from whence thou art fallen.

The bottom line is that it's not something that happens later in life. And it's the same for everyone.

the Father is long suffering, not willing that any should perish, (the second death).

Neither you nor anyone here understands that sentence you wrote. The whole point of this thread is to teach what that means. Everyone here still hasn't waken up yet. None of you have figured it out. That is why I basically gave up on this thread. It's a futile effort to show what long suffering and Second Death actually means.

This verse is one of the biggest clues:

Revelation 13:10 - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If you understood the meaning, you would be *stunned* by what patience and long suffering really means. You would never be the same.

I can tell who knows and who doesn't. It's completely life altering.

The thread author does not understand the true meaning of partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil:

The irony of your statement. As I have shown in my Mystery Babylon thread, the Forbidden Fruit is what she holds in her hand...

Revelation 17:4 - And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

It's *literal*. She holds the zygote (sperm + ovum) we partook of to be conceived. We made a Covenant with Death so that she could be our new mom. The Devil fertilzed said ovum. That is what Jesus is teaching in John 8:44. That is how we got here. Jesus was being *literal*.

Don't even tell me I 'don't understand the true meaning'. Give me a break.

...everyone knowingly sins for the first time, and that is sin,

When did it happen? Find the answer and you solve the meaning of life.

...and the Father has provided the remedy for this through His Son.

Can you prove it? No, you can't. No one here can as far as I can tell. I am the only one who is able to.

The remedy is what I have been trying to show everyone, but folks here are too conditioned, too brainwashed, too full of hate and pride to see it.

@St. SteVen is the closest one here to figuring it out. It absolutely has to do with Universal Salvation. However, the method in which said Universal Salvation works is something the so called 'Universalists' are still blind too.

The way it works is in Genesis 3. It answers all the questions about Hell and the Lake of Fire and what they are really all about.

And as concerning the first man, the adam who partook of the forbidden fruit together with his wife: it is the Son of Man, (Ben Adam), who raised him/them from the spiritual separation, (dead), in Genesis 1:26-28, as proven by Psalms, Prophets, and scriptures including even the writings of Paul, (see my previous posts in this thread).

My argument is that the raising was *literal*, not a sprinkling of pixie dust. The man and woman were *dead* as in they *literally* went to Hell after partaking of the Forbidden Fruit.

They were *literally* raised from the dead and their eyes were physically opened after being *literally* closed. They were sleeping the sleep of *literal* death. Everyone on this forum simply does not believe their Bibles. This is fact.

This verse is describing the Resurrection of Damnation:

Genesis 3:7 - And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

They were then judged, i.e., Judgement Day. They were then 'cast out' with new 'clothes', new identities...

I pray you folks understand what Revelation 13:10 means some day, hopefully soon. There are other verses like it:

Galatians 6:7 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

With patience and long suffering I will wait until Christians snap out of the spell Satan has put them under. If you or anyone here does not believe that *ALL* will be saved, including Satan, then you have no right to claim you know anything about Gods Plan of Salvation.

The rest of the world woke up ages ago to the fact that people who believe in a god that 'torments people to infinity' or 'annihilates them' have a sickness and hatred that not even Satan in a billion years could match.

 

[dak]

OK.



I didn't respond because, after seeing your views, I saw nothing that proved your case. You made the same mistakes as everyone else by changing words to fit your own narrative. This is why a verse by verse commentary is the only way to do this correctly. This is what I promised to @rvmb .

You and many others have a bad habit of paraphrasing and inserting leaven into said. It sounds great to those with short attention spans. My research is for those that are academic and looking for real answers as to why Genesis 1 and 2 allegedly contradict one another.

One cannot simply state "Genesis one and two are from different perspectives" and claim it is case closed and go pick their nose all day.

Again, people who study this stuff *KNOW* there hasn't been an answer yet that works. This is fact. No one mainstream has made Genesis 1 and 2 agree!

My solution is the only one that *does* work. Unfortunately, I am a nobody so I am not taken seriously.



Just because you or others post a response, that does not automatically mean that I have been refuted or debunked or whatever. I am very busy and I apologize if I cannot respond to all posts.



That warning was for the First Adam and Ishshah, not just 'anyone'. Nevertheless, we all partook. Whether it took 24hrs or less for the process to run its course for all of us here is something I do not know.



The fact that you are here on earth is all the proof you will ever need. The moment you were conceived is the end of when you partook of the Forbidden Fruit. In other words, you ate *before* you were conceived. You knew exactly what you were doing. You left your first love. Remember from whence thou art fallen.

The bottom line is that it's not something that happens later in life. And it's the same for everyone.



Neither you nor anyone here understands that sentence you wrote. The whole point of this thread is to teach what that means. Everyone here still hasn't waken up yet. None of you have figured it out. That is why I basically gave up on this thread. It's a futile effort to show what long suffering and Second Death actually means.

This verse is one of the biggest clues:



If you understood the meaning, you would be *stunned* by what patience and long suffering really means. You would never be the same.

I can tell who knows and who doesn't. It's completely life altering.



The irony of your statement. As I have shown in my Mystery Babylon thread, the Forbidden Fruit is what she holds in her hand...



It's *literal*. She holds the zygote (sperm + ovum) we partook of to be conceived. We made a Covenant with Death so that she could be our new mom. The Devil fertilzed said ovum. That is what Jesus is teaching in John 8:44. That is how we got here. Jesus was being *literal*.

Don't even tell me I 'don't understand the true meaning'. Give me a break.



When did it happen? Find the answer and you solve the meaning of life.



Can you prove it? No, you can't. No one here can as far as I can tell. I am the only one who is able to.

The remedy is what I have been trying to show everyone, but folks here are too conditioned, too brainwashed, too full of hate and pride to see it.

@St. SteVen is the closest one here to figuring it out. It absolutely has to do with Universal Salvation. However, the method in which said Universal Salvation works is something the so called 'Universalists' are still blind too.

The way it works is in Genesis 3. It answers all the questions about Hell and the Lake of Fire and what they are really all about.



My argument is that the raising was *literal*, not a sprinkling of pixie dust. The man and woman were *dead* as in they *literally* went to Hell after partaking of the Forbidden Fruit.

They were *literally* raised from the dead and their eyes were physically opened after being *literally* closed. They were sleeping the sleep of *literal* death. Everyone on this forum simply does not believe their Bibles. This is fact.

This verse is describing the Resurrection of Damnation:



They were then judged, i.e., Judgement Day. They were then 'cast out' with new 'clothes', new identities...

I pray you folks understand what Revelation 13:10 means some day, hopefully soon. There are other verses like it:



With patience and long suffering I will wait until Christians snap out of the spell Satan has put them under. If you or anyone here does not believe that *ALL* will be saved, including Satan, then you have no right to claim you know anything about Gods Plan of Salvation.

The rest of the world woke up ages ago to the fact that people who believe in a god that 'torments people to infinity' or 'annihilates them' have a sickness and hatred that not even Satan in a billion years could match.

This appears to be simply more boasting again without any actual scripture evidence for your claims. For example, while claiming that your supposed exegesis allows the scripture to interpret itself, you then proceed to take the only place where the second death is mentioned, (in the Apocalypse), and alter the meanings of the phrase which are expounded therein by the scripture text itself.

Revelation 2:11 ASV
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:4-6 ASV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:11-15 ASV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:7-8 ASV
7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

The second death is easily understood as physical death, which is simple common sense and agrees with many statements of the Master in the Gospel accounts, and the second death includes your old man nature if indeed you overcome. The second death, which is physical death, therefore cannot harm true believers who overcome through faith, belief, and walking in the Testimony of the Master, and have passed from spiritual death into the Life, which as we know, is spiritual everlasting Life.

Yet you consider every person who has responded to this thread as ignorant of the truth because of believing what the scripture actually teaches over your supposed exegesis which subverts the scripture teaching concerning the second death: and apparently also because no one believes your supposed exegesis claiming that Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet of the Apocalypse, and all non-believers, are to be resurrected AFTER having been judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, and AFTER having been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. You've wrested so much scripture in your attempt at exegesis, beginning with the statement in Gen 2:17, that I do not see any point in going any further: you are fully convinced in your error.

However I do appreciate learning more about what you actually believe; and it appears to be influenced more by the Book of Urantia than by the Bible. Are you a Urantian? They do often pretend to believe the Bible but are always found to be hijacking the Scripture and forcing their Book of Urantia into it because they actually believe their book understands and properly interprets the Bible: they could not be further from the truth, and in my encounters with them I have mostly found them to be full of boasting, thinking themselves to be wise, just like you. I'll now leave you to yourself. Have a nice thread.