Impediments to Spiritual Growth in Christ.

[Lizbeth]

Yes, what you're saying can be true if we keep it within biblical guardrails, and those guardrails count. When someone is truly born again and steps into walking in obedience, Scripture becomes plain when it never did before. Jesus told us a man must be born again to see. ~John 3: 3 Paul told us the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned. ~1 Corinthians 2:14 That is not new revelation. That is spiritual eyes replacing blindness.

What changes is not the Bible. What changes is the person. The truth was always there. The heart was not. This is illumination, not revelation. Scripture is already revealed. God’s Word is complete. The Holy Spirit does not add meanings, layers, or upgraded interpretations. He opens the eyes of the believer to understand and submit to what is already written. “The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple” ~Psalm 119:130. The light is in the Word, not hidden behind it.

Where this must stay tight is here: the clarity that comes after conversion does not move someone beyond the plain meaning of Scripture, nor does it reclassify the literal sense as “carnal.” The apostles taught doctrine with words, plainly stated, taught by the Spirit ~1 Corinthians 2:13. Christianity is a revealed faith, not a symbolic one that matures into hidden meanings.

So yes, truth can be “new to us” in the sense that we finally see and grasp what we previously read without understanding. But no truth is ever new in the sense of being newly discovered, unlocked, or reserved for later maturity. The faith was once delivered ~Jude 3, not delivered in stages.

The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth by bringing us into submission to Scripture, not by taking us beyond it. When obedience follows regeneration, the Word lands with conviction and clarity. That is biblical. But once clarity is untethered from what is plainly written, it stops being illumination and becomes imagination. And Scripture never authorizes that.

The faith was once delivered, yes, the foundational things...but after that we grow in stages, or progressively.

May I ask what your background or affiliation is.....eg,Baptist or Pentecostal....cessationist or charismatic etc.....? I wish there were a place on the avatar for people to put their affiliation or denomination...it helps to know where someone is coming from with the things they may say.

 

[amigo de christo]

What a surprise; Marvelloustime posted after amigo de christo. Who could have seen that coming?

what a suprise that rather than enjoying the scrips she posted only accusations come flying .
And what is not a suprise to me at all is the fact i sure seem to see you getting just a wee bit cozy with EvEN EPI .
Now i wonder why that might be . Well i know the WHY , but i leave you to ponder on why that is .

 

[amigo de christo]

What a surprise; Marvelloustime posted after amigo de christo. Who could have seen that coming?

kinda like laurina and epi . only i seems to notice you gots no problem with that camp .
Now what is it that really bothers you about this dear sister . I MEAN ALL she DO IS POST SCRIPTURE .
oh dear ...................MAYBE THAT IS THE PROBLEM you have . OH my , AINT good either . BIBLE time wrangler . BIBLE TIME .

 

[bdavidc]

The faith was once delivered, yes, the foundational things...but after that we grow in stages, or progressively.

May I ask what your background or affiliation is.....eg,Baptist or Pentecostal....cessationist or charismatic etc.....? I wish there were a place on the avatar for people to put their affiliation or denomination...it helps to know where someone is coming from with the things they may say.

Notice how the discussion just shifted away from Scripture to background and affiliation. That move is telling, and Scripture does not allow it. The Bible does not ground truth in denominational labels or theological tribes. It grounds truth in what has been written in the Bible. Yes, believers grow in understanding and maturity, but Scripture defines that growth as deeper obedience to what has already been revealed, not progressive access to additional layers of meaning. The faith was once delivered, complete, and sufficient, and growth never carries us beyond or behind the plain sense of Scripture ~Jude 3; ~2 Timothy 3:16–17.

Asking for affiliation does not clarify doctrine. It reframes the issue as perspective rather than truth. The Bereans were called noble not because they knew Paul’s background, but because they tested what he said by the Scriptures ~Acts 17:11. That remains the standard for me. I am not promoting any denomination, men's opinion, or tradition just what the bible actually teaches.

So the question is unchanged and does not depend on labels: does Scripture teach progressive obedience and maturity, yes. Does it teach progressive revelation, hidden meanings, or truths unlocked by stages of spirituality, no. Growth clarifies what is written; it never moves beyond it. Readers should judge this by the Word itself, not by where someone is “coming from.”

Just to be clear for the sake of readers: are you saying that spiritual growth includes receiving new, authoritative revelation beyond Scripture, or that growth is simply deeper understanding and obedience to what Scripture already teaches?

 

[Lizbeth]

Just to be clear for the sake of readers: are you saying that spiritual growth includes receiving new, authoritative revelation beyond Scripture, or that growth is simply deeper understanding and obedience to what Scripture already teaches?

Well, for me, I'm talking about the latter. And I often use the words revelation and illumination interchangeably. Although when Paul went to the third heaven, he saw/heard things that he was not permitted to tell...that must mean what he saw/heard wasn't in scripture because I don't think there is anything in the bible that is not permitted to be taught that I am aware of. It also meant he didn't go around teaching those things he saw/heard that weren't in scripture.....so there would have been no danger of leading anyone astray by his experience. It was just for him personally, perhaps to encourage and strengthen him for his work in the gospel. But neither would his experience have contradicted any truth of scripture.

The reason I asked about your affiliation is because I discern a certain hardness to your posts. We can be "theologically correct" while being in a wrong spirit or in the flesh about it. I wondered if you are cessationist, and not having received the Holy Spirit since you believed. The gospel is about much more than being biblically "correct" in our theology or doctrine.....it needs to be based in the love of God, ie, His Spirit/nature. We are to serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the letter which kills. Certainly there are times for rebuke, church discipline and to earnestly contend, etc, but overall I dont' believe we should or need to be unloving, uncharitable or self-righteous in our approach. Scripture says His kindness leads to repentance. The Lord is not a tough guy sticking out his chest...the bible says in all our afflictions He is afflicted, and He does not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men. When it is needful for Him chastise/discipline/judge it is not without some reluctance and sorrow on His part.

 

[Azim]

This is the time to take the "red pill" if you dare: There have never been so many impediments to a spiritual growth in Christ as in our time. The solution to this predicament is both too easy and too hard for us to wrap our minds around. This is by God's design. Pride stops us from discovering the "easy" way of mercy towards others and a childlike righteousness that God approves. We tend to overshoot the target in this regard. On the other hand, a lack of real faith, understanding, and knowledge, prevents us from discovering what is presently beyond us, namely, holiness. This episode seeks to clear the rubble and redirect the paths that have gone astray, as well hold out the standard we need to raise up as we call on the name of the Lord for His life and salvation.

Looking forward to you talking more about the "simulation" of this life.

 

[bdavidc]

Well, for me, I'm talking about the latter. And I often use the words revelation and illumination interchangeably. Although when Paul went to the third heaven, he saw/heard things that he was not permitted to tell...that must mean what he saw/heard wasn't in scripture because I don't think there is anything in the bible that is not permitted to be taught that I am aware of. It also meant he didn't go around teaching those things he saw/heard that weren't in scripture.....so there would have been no danger of leading anyone astray by his experience. It was just for him personally, perhaps to encourage and strengthen him for his work in the gospel. But neither would his experience have contradicted any truth of scripture.

I’m not sure where some of this is coming from, because I never said what you’re responding to. I didn’t claim ongoing revelation, and I didn’t deny illumination. My question was simply whether spiritual growth is new revelation beyond Scripture or deeper understanding and obedience to what God has already given.

The Bible keeps those categories clear. Revelation is God giving truth that was not previously disclosed. Illumination is God turning the lights on so we can see what He has already written. David prayed, “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law” ~Psalm 119:18. The law was already there; the understanding was what was needed.

Paul’s third-heaven experience does not blur that line. Paul lived in a unique, unrepeatable moment when God was still giving Scripture through the apostles. “I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ” ~Galatians 1:12. That revelation was for the church and it was written down. Once written, it became Scripture.

But in 2 Corinthians 12, God draws a boundary. Paul heard things he was not permitted to speak ~2 Corinthians 12:4. That does not mean believers are missing truth. It means God chose not to reveal it. Paul never treated that experience as spiritual fuel, guidance, or encouragement for himself or others. He shuts the door on it and points instead to weakness and dependence on Christ.

Here’s the principle: if God does not give it to the church, He does not expect the church to live by it. Growth comes from what God has revealed, not from what He withheld. Scripture is sufficient to do the job God gave it to do. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God… that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” ~2 Timothy 3:16–17.

So illumination helps us understand Scripture. Revelation gave us Scripture. And today, God grows His people by the Word He has already spoken, not by private experiences outside of it.

 

[bdavidc]

The reason I asked about your affiliation is because I discern a certain hardness to your posts. We can be "theologically correct" while being in a wrong spirit or in the flesh about it. I wondered if you are cessationist, and not having received the Holy Spirit since you believed. The gospel is about much more than being biblically "correct" in our theology or doctrine.....it needs to be based in the love of God, ie, His Spirit/nature. We are to serve in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the letter which kills. Certainly there are times for rebuke, church discipline and to earnestly contend, etc, but overall I dont' believe we should or need to be unloving, uncharitable or self-righteous in our approach. Scripture says His kindness leads to repentance. The Lord is not a tough guy sticking out his chest...the bible says in all our afflictions He is afflicted, and He does not willingly afflict or grieve the children of men. When it is needful for Him chastise/discipline/judge it is not without some reluctance and sorrow on His part.

You’re asking questions from a denominational framework, not from what Scripture actually says. Scripture does not condemn someone based on tone, personality, or supposed extra spiritual experiences. God’s Word is the standard for truth. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20.

Godly discernment comes by testing claims by what God has said, not by feelings, impressions, or what sounds “right” in our heads. “But try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” ~1 John 4:1. Jesus treated Scripture as final authority, answering temptation with, “It is written” ~Matthew 4:4.

God has not told us to use inner feelings as our measuring rod. He has given us His Word to test everything against. When people drift from the text, confusion multiplies. Some are “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” ~2 Timothy 3:7. Godly discernment comes by the Spirit teaching us through God’s written Word, not by opinion whispered in by the world or the flesh. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. If someone believes something that cannot be shown from Scripture, it is opinion, not biblical discernment.

And yes, I do have the Holy Spirit. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” ~Romans 8:9. Salvation is by grace through faith ~Ephesians 2:8–9. The Spirit is received at salvation, not years later, and not based on someone else’s “feel” about your personality. “After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” ~Ephesians 1:13.

The Bible does not teach a second baptism of the Spirit for believers. There is “one body, and one Spirit…one Lord, one faith, one baptism” ~Ephesians 4:4–5. Insinuating that someone who knows Scripture and stands firm on doctrine may not have the Spirit is not biblical.

Yes, the Spirit is necessary, because without Him we will not understand Scripture. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God…because they are spiritually discerned” ~1 Corinthians 2:14. But the Holy Spirit does not add new doctrine outside Scripture. He opens our eyes to understand what God has already spoken. “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law” ~Psalm 119:18.

Sound doctrine was never something I set aside. Scripture does not pit being biblical against being loving. Christian love “rejoices in the truth” ~1 Corinthians 13:6. We are commanded to walk by the Spirit, and that includes submitting to God’s Word.

“The letter killeth” in context is about the Mosaic covenant bringing condemnation, while the new covenant in Christ brings life. ~2 Corinthians 3:6–9. We are not under the law as a covenant of condemnation, but under grace. ~Romans 6:14. Yet the same Scriptures command believers to hold fast sound doctrine and to correct error. “Hold fast the form of sound words” ~2 Timothy 1:13, and “reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine” ~2 Timothy 4:2. Jesus also warned about “the commandments of men” being taught as doctrine. ~Matthew 15:9.

If you believe I am incorrect about anything above, then prove it from Scripture in context. We do not measure truth by opinion or spiritual feelings. We measure claims by what God has said. If Scripture contradicts what I’ve said, post the verses and show the context. If it doesn’t, then please stop implying that it does.

 

[Episkopos]

Looking forward to you talking more about the "simulation" of this life.

Hey Azim, :) I was thinking of doing an episode on "we are living in a simulation". There is a lot of biblical evidence for this....going from a deep sleep to awakening into the light of eternal reality.

<><

 

[Lizbeth]

I’m not sure where some of this is coming from, because I never said what you’re responding to. I didn’t claim ongoing revelation, and I didn’t deny illumination. My question was simply whether spiritual growth is new revelation beyond Scripture or deeper understanding and obedience to what God has already given.

The Bible keeps those categories clear. Revelation is God giving truth that was not previously disclosed. Illumination is God turning the lights on so we can see what He has already written. David prayed, “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law” ~Psalm 119:18. The law was already there; the understanding was what was needed.

Paul’s third-heaven experience does not blur that line. Paul lived in a unique, unrepeatable moment when God was still giving Scripture through the apostles. “I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ” ~Galatians 1:12. That revelation was for the church and it was written down. Once written, it became Scripture.

But in 2 Corinthians 12, God draws a boundary. Paul heard things he was not permitted to speak ~2 Corinthians 12:4. That does not mean believers are missing truth. It means God chose not to reveal it. Paul never treated that experience as spiritual fuel, guidance, or encouragement for himself or others. He shuts the door on it and points instead to weakness and dependence on Christ.

Here’s the principle: if God does not give it to the church, He does not expect the church to live by it. Growth comes from what God has revealed, not from what He withheld. Scripture is sufficient to do the job God gave it to do. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God… that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” ~2 Timothy 3:16–17.

So illumination helps us understand Scripture. Revelation gave us Scripture. And today, God grows His people by the Word He has already spoken, not by private experiences outside of it.

My point is just that Paul saw/heard things that apparently weren't in the bible. And I don't doubt his experience was of the Lord. But in teaching/preaching one should not go beyond with is written. And I agree there is no need to, because what we have been given in scripture is sufficient.

You say: << Paul lived in a unique, unrepeatable moment when God was still giving Scripture through the apostles. >> Hmm, so my discernment was correct....it is a spiritual gift from the Lord. And your statement here is contradictory in itself because cessationists deny so much of what the apostles wrote as scripture. God doesn't change brother. One reason Jesus died and arose was so that the Holy Spirit could be poured out and give spiritual gifts to His people. Cessationism is like denying so much of what Jesus suffered and died for. But that is a topic for another day, lest we hijack this thread.

I think to make too fine a distinction between "reveal" and "illuminate" is splitting hairs. Jesus spoke in parables, of which the meaning was hid from the wise and learned and revealed to little children. The parables/allegories of scripture may be illuminated to us when we humbly seek understanding in reliance on the Lord as opposed to relying on "self", but not illuminated/revealed to those who are wise in their own eyes. They are terms which can be used interchangeably. I don't want to "argue about words".

 

[Lizbeth]

You’re asking questions from a denominational framework, not from what Scripture actually says. Scripture does not condemn someone based on tone, personality, or supposed extra spiritual experiences. God’s Word is the standard for truth. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20.

Godly discernment comes by testing claims by what God has said, not by feelings, impressions, or what sounds “right” in our heads. “But try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world” ~1 John 4:1. Jesus treated Scripture as final authority, answering temptation with, “It is written” ~Matthew 4:4.

God has not told us to use inner feelings as our measuring rod. He has given us His Word to test everything against. When people drift from the text, confusion multiplies. Some are “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” ~2 Timothy 3:7. Godly discernment comes by the Spirit teaching us through God’s written Word, not by opinion whispered in by the world or the flesh. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16. If someone believes something that cannot be shown from Scripture, it is opinion, not biblical discernment.

And yes, I do have the Holy Spirit. “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” ~Romans 8:9. Salvation is by grace through faith ~Ephesians 2:8–9. The Spirit is received at salvation, not years later, and not based on someone else’s “feel” about your personality. “After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” ~Ephesians 1:13.

The Bible does not teach a second baptism of the Spirit for believers. There is “one body, and one Spirit…one Lord, one faith, one baptism” ~Ephesians 4:4–5. Insinuating that someone who knows Scripture and stands firm on doctrine may not have the Spirit is not biblical.

Yes, the Spirit is necessary, because without Him we will not understand Scripture. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God…because they are spiritually discerned” ~1 Corinthians 2:14. But the Holy Spirit does not add new doctrine outside Scripture. He opens our eyes to understand what God has already spoken. “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law” ~Psalm 119:18.

Sound doctrine was never something I set aside. Scripture does not pit being biblical against being loving. Christian love “rejoices in the truth” ~1 Corinthians 13:6. We are commanded to walk by the Spirit, and that includes submitting to God’s Word.

“The letter killeth” in context is about the Mosaic covenant bringing condemnation, while the new covenant in Christ brings life. ~2 Corinthians 3:6–9. We are not under the law as a covenant of condemnation, but under grace. ~Romans 6:14. Yet the same Scriptures command believers to hold fast sound doctrine and to correct error. “Hold fast the form of sound words” ~2 Timothy 1:13, and “reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine” ~2 Timothy 4:2. Jesus also warned about “the commandments of men” being taught as doctrine. ~Matthew 15:9.

If you believe I am incorrect about anything above, then prove it from Scripture in context. We do not measure truth by opinion or spiritual feelings. We measure claims by what God has said. If Scripture contradicts what I’ve said, post the verses and show the context. If it doesn’t, then please stop implying that it does.

It is not an intellectual exercise, but spiritual via the Holy Spirit....we will have Christ revealed to us when we come to faith but without receiving the Holy Spirit subsequent to that we cannot learn the deep things of God...we cannot really grow:

1Co 2:9-14

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


The bible also says, knowledge puffs up, and that knowledge will pass away, and that if have all knowledge but have not love we are like a clanging gong.

And SCRIPTURE as written by the apostles also asks, "Have ye received the Holy Spirit SINCE ye believed?" Not having received the Holy Spirit since one believed I would say must be one of the first impediments to growing in Christ.

 

[Laurina]

This is not my opinion. What I am saying is what the Bible teaches, and what you are saying goes beyond it.

Are you saying that anything beyond your understanding has to be false??? Making you the final arbiter of truth???
It would seem that you are guilty of the very thing that you accuse Epikopos of doing.

 

[bdavidc]

My point is just that Paul saw/heard things that apparently weren't in the bible. And I don't doubt his experience was of the Lord. But in teaching/preaching one should not go beyond with is written. And I agree there is no need to, because what we have been given in scripture is sufficient.

Paul did NOT have the completed New Testament laid out in front of him when he lived and preached. What he had were the Old Testament Scriptures (“the holy scriptures” in 2 Tim. 3:15). Several books of the New Testament were still being written during Paul’s life time. Paul wrote the majority of them himself. When Paul reasoned “out of the scriptures” (Acts 17:2), Paul meant the Old Testament Scriptures. The NT was NOT given.

That makes the distinction clearer, not muddies it up. Paul said in Galatians 1: 12 “I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Revelation in the strict sense of the word. New covenant truth never previously given was revealed to Paul. Once it was written, it became Scripture. Peter quotes Paul’s letters as authoritative along with “the other scriptures” in 2 Peter 3:16. This is NOT talking about some private mystical experience. This is talking about inspired, written revelation.

Now with regards to 2 Corinthians 12. Paul certainly heard and saw things not included in Scripture. But did God ordain for that to guide the church? No. “He heard words which it is not lawful for a man to speak” (2 Corinthians 12:4). And Paul didn’t either! God expressly did NOT allow Paul to speak them. Paul didn’t preach what he saw. He didn’t use that revelation to teach. On the contrary, Paul points us to HIS thorn in the flesh and Christ’s gracious response “My grace is sufficient for thee” (2 Corinthians 12:9). THAT is the example we have been given. If God didn’t see fit to give it in written form for the church, then He didn’t want us to live by it.

You claimed the line between revelation and illumination is splitting hairs. It sure doesn’t sound that way when you read Scripture. Revelation is defined as God unveiling truth not previously given. Illumination is the receiving of knowledge and insight into what has already been written. Psalm 119: 18 says, “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.” The law is what was already written. David wasn’t praying for new revelation. He was asking God to help him understand what was already there.

Does Jesus speaking in parables contradict these categories? No. His parables were teaching done in public. The secrets of the kingdom were veiled from those who were proud, unveiled to those who were humble, as you yourself stated. But no new content was added by way of revelation. The difference was whether or not God opened their understanding. THAT is illumination. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:12, “Now we have received, the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” To KNOW the things. Not to go beyond what was given.

Same goes for spiritual gifts. When you said that Christians denying certain spiritual gifts today is denying what Jesus died for. We have to be careful with statements like that. The redemption Jesus accomplished on the cross is a finished work. “Christ died for our sins, and, was buried, and, rose again the third day” (1 Corinthians 15:3–4). It’s true that the Spirit was given to guide us. But part of what He does as our Spirit is GUIDE the apostles “into all truth” (John 16:13). That foundational apostolic ministry, however, does not appear in Scripture as a completed work then continued in every age. No, the Bible says the church is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” You don’t keep building a building after the foundation has been laid.

Please note that I’m not saying the Spirit doesn’t work. He convicts, sanctifies, illumines our hearts, distributes spiritual gifts as He pleases (1 Corinthians 12:11). My point is whatever He DOES do will NEVER include adding to the doctrine of Scripture. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 4:6. Literally, “that ye may learn from us insofar as you surpass not.”

You said you don’t want to argue semantics. Neither do I, that’s why I pointed you to Scripture. But God did choose words when He revealed Himself to us. And if we’re going to rightly interpret Scripture, we need to handle those words properly. When God keeps categories separate, we shouldn’t blur them together.

Here’s the simple, biblical question. Is spiritual growth comprised of receiving new revelation not found in Scripture or is it growing in understanding, obedience, and conformity to what has already been revealed?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16–17). If Scripture is ALL we need for that, what could possibly be missing?

 

[bdavidc]

It is not an intellectual exercise, but spiritual via the Holy Spirit....we will have Christ revealed to us when we come to faith but without receiving the Holy Spirit subsequent to that we cannot learn the deep things of God...we cannot really grow:

You quoted 1 Corinthians 2:9–14. Notice that passage answers your point if we actually read it in context. “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit” (v. 10). Who is the “us”? Contextually, it is the apostles. “Which things also we speak”. They spoke what the Spirit revealed to them. That is revelation given through men who were inspired by God. That is how we got Scripture.

“And we have received… the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God” (v. 12). Again notice the order. We receive the Spirit so that we can know what has already been freely given to us. The passage does not say that believers receive Christ and then at some later point receive the Spirit so that they may finally begin to grow. It plainly says believers have already received the Spirit.

This aligns with other straightforward passages: “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Romans 8:9). There is not other category in Scripture for someone who is saved but does not yet have the Spirit. “After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13). Believing and being sealed with the Spirit go together. There is no gap described in the process.

You referenced Acts 19 where Paul asked, “Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?” That was not a second blessing for normal Christians. Those men had only received John’s baptism and did not even know the Holy Spirit had been given. They were transitional disciples who had not yet heard the full gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection. Once they heard, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and received the Spirit. That is not presented as a pattern for two-stage Christianity. It is a unique historical moment during the spread of the gospel.

About “deep things.” Again, 2 Corinthians does not speak of some later spiritual upgrade. It contrasts those who are spiritual versus those who are carnally minded. Paul says a natural man “receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” verse 14. But one who is spiritual does receive them. What’s the difference between a natural and spiritual man? One has the Spirit of God and the other doesn’t. But according to Romans 8:9, every believer has the Spirit.

You quoted “knowledge puffeth up” (1 Corinthians 8:1). Contextually Paul is condemning prideful disobedience in an area of liberty, he is not condemning knowledge of doctrine. Same apostle wrote, “Hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me” (2 Timothy 1: 13) and “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them” (1 Timothy 4:16). Knowledge can puff up without love, but knowledge itself is not sin. Ignorance is not virtuous. Love “rejoiceth in the truth” (1 Corinthians 13:6).

You said this is not an intellectual exercise but spiritual. That is true. But the Spirit works through the Word He inspired. Jesus prayed, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17). Growth is not mystical detachment from Scripture. It is deeper conformity to what God has written.

Romans 8:9 leaves us with no wiggle room. If someone does not have the Spirit, they do not belong to Christ. Period. But if they belong to Christ, they have the Spirit. End of story. That means the issue that hinders our growth is not holding our hands until we spiritually “mature” enough to receive the Spirit. Our problem is resisting what the Spirit has already given us: the living and active Word of God.

If you can show me where the Bible clearly teaches a second reception of the Spirit for believers who already belong to Christ, post the verses and let’s examine them in context. Until then, let’s not build doctrines the apostles didn’t lay down.

 

[bdavidc]

Are you saying that anything beyond your understanding has to be false??? Making you the final arbiter of truth???
It would seem that you are guilty of the very thing that you accuse Epikopos of doing.

I haven’t asked anyone to agree with my opinion. I’ve pointed to specific passages and quoted them in context. If what I’ve said is wrong, then show from Scripture where the text teaches something different.

The standard is not my understanding or yours. The standard is what is written. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. And we are commanded “not to think of men above that which is written” ~1 Corinthians 4:6.

If I’ve misused a verse, correct it from the text. But simply saying I’m making myself the final arbiter doesn’t deal with the passages that were actually cited. Scripture is the authority. We either stand on it or we move beyond it.

 

[ShineTheLight]

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16–17). If Scripture is ALL we need for that, what could possibly be missing?

Definitely not a Matthew G thread encouraging you to live in la-la land or that is full of errors and false teachings.

 

[Lizbeth]

Paul did NOT have the completed New Testament laid out in front of him when he lived and preached. What he had were the Old Testament Scriptures (“the holy scriptures” in 2 Tim. 3:15). Several books of the New Testament were still being written during Paul’s life time. Paul wrote the majority of them himself. When Paul reasoned “out of the scriptures” (Acts 17:2), Paul meant the Old Testament Scriptures. The NT was NOT given.

That makes the distinction clearer, not muddies it up. Paul said in Galatians 1: 12 “I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Revelation in the strict sense of the word. New covenant truth never previously given was revealed to Paul. Once it was written, it became Scripture. Peter quotes Paul’s letters as authoritative along with “the other scriptures” in 2 Peter 3:16. This is NOT talking about some private mystical experience. This is talking about inspired, written revelation.

Now with regards to 2 Corinthians 12. Paul certainly heard and saw things not included in Scripture. But did God ordain for that to guide the church? No. “He heard words which it is not lawful for a man to speak” (2 Corinthians 12:4). And Paul didn’t either! God expressly did NOT allow Paul to speak them. Paul didn’t preach what he saw. He didn’t use that revelation to teach. On the contrary, Paul points us to HIS thorn in the flesh and Christ’s gracious response “My grace is sufficient for thee” (2 Corinthians 12:9). THAT is the example we have been given. If God didn’t see fit to give it in written form for the church, then He didn’t want us to live by it.

You claimed the line between revelation and illumination is splitting hairs. It sure doesn’t sound that way when you read Scripture. Revelation is defined as God unveiling truth not previously given. Illumination is the receiving of knowledge and insight into what has already been written. Psalm 119: 18 says, “Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.” The law is what was already written. David wasn’t praying for new revelation. He was asking God to help him understand what was already there.

Does Jesus speaking in parables contradict these categories? No. His parables were teaching done in public. The secrets of the kingdom were veiled from those who were proud, unveiled to those who were humble, as you yourself stated. But no new content was added by way of revelation. The difference was whether or not God opened their understanding. THAT is illumination. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:12, “Now we have received, the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” To KNOW the things. Not to go beyond what was given.

Same goes for spiritual gifts. When you said that Christians denying certain spiritual gifts today is denying what Jesus died for. We have to be careful with statements like that. The redemption Jesus accomplished on the cross is a finished work. “Christ died for our sins, and, was buried, and, rose again the third day” (1 Corinthians 15:3–4). It’s true that the Spirit was given to guide us. But part of what He does as our Spirit is GUIDE the apostles “into all truth” (John 16:13). That foundational apostolic ministry, however, does not appear in Scripture as a completed work then continued in every age. No, the Bible says the church is “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” You don’t keep building a building after the foundation has been laid.

Please note that I’m not saying the Spirit doesn’t work. He convicts, sanctifies, illumines our hearts, distributes spiritual gifts as He pleases (1 Corinthians 12:11). My point is whatever He DOES do will NEVER include adding to the doctrine of Scripture. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 4:6. Literally, “that ye may learn from us insofar as you surpass not.”

You said you don’t want to argue semantics. Neither do I, that’s why I pointed you to Scripture. But God did choose words when He revealed Himself to us. And if we’re going to rightly interpret Scripture, we need to handle those words properly. When God keeps categories separate, we shouldn’t blur them together.

Here’s the simple, biblical question. Is spiritual growth comprised of receiving new revelation not found in Scripture or is it growing in understanding, obedience, and conformity to what has already been revealed?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16–17). If Scripture is ALL we need for that, what could possibly be missing?

The OT scrips are full of prophecies and words and prophetic foreshadowings about the Messiah/Jesus and the new covenant and kingdom of God, but they werent' revealed until He came. He was and is the key of David who unlocks all those OT scrips and the apostles wrote to expound them and flesh them out, not to add to them per se. When we come to Christ He begins to likewise enlighten us....we begin to read those old testament scrips in His light, with unveiled faces, with understanding/enlightenment we didnt' have before and can't have without Him It is His Spirit which gives us light and reveals His word/truth thereby to us and as He did to the apostles.....He is the light of the world.

 

[Lizbeth]

You quoted 1 Corinthians 2:9–14. Notice that passage answers your point if we actually read it in context. “But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit” (v. 10). Who is the “us”? Contextually, it is the apostles. “Which things also we speak”. They spoke what the Spirit revealed to them. That is revelation given through men who were inspired by God. That is how we got Scripture.

“And we have received… the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God” (v. 12). Again notice the order. We receive the Spirit so that we can know what has already been freely given to us. The passage does not say that believers receive Christ and then at some later point receive the Spirit so that they may finally begin to grow. It plainly says believers have already received the Spirit.

This aligns with other straightforward passages: “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Romans 8:9). There is not other category in Scripture for someone who is saved but does not yet have the Spirit. “After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13). Believing and being sealed with the Spirit go together. There is no gap described in the process.

You referenced Acts 19 where Paul asked, “Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?” That was not a second blessing for normal Christians. Those men had only received John’s baptism and did not even know the Holy Spirit had been given. They were transitional disciples who had not yet heard the full gospel of Christ’s death and resurrection. Once they heard, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and received the Spirit. That is not presented as a pattern for two-stage Christianity. It is a unique historical moment during the spread of the gospel.

About “deep things.” Again, 2 Corinthians does not speak of some later spiritual upgrade. It contrasts those who are spiritual versus those who are carnally minded. Paul says a natural man “receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” verse 14. But one who is spiritual does receive them. What’s the difference between a natural and spiritual man? One has the Spirit of God and the other doesn’t. But according to Romans 8:9, every believer has the Spirit.

You quoted “knowledge puffeth up” (1 Corinthians 8:1). Contextually Paul is condemning prideful disobedience in an area of liberty, he is not condemning knowledge of doctrine. Same apostle wrote, “Hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me” (2 Timothy 1: 13) and “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them” (1 Timothy 4:16). Knowledge can puff up without love, but knowledge itself is not sin. Ignorance is not virtuous. Love “rejoiceth in the truth” (1 Corinthians 13:6).

You said this is not an intellectual exercise but spiritual. That is true. But the Spirit works through the Word He inspired. Jesus prayed, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17). Growth is not mystical detachment from Scripture. It is deeper conformity to what God has written.

Romans 8:9 leaves us with no wiggle room. If someone does not have the Spirit, they do not belong to Christ. Period. But if they belong to Christ, they have the Spirit. End of story. That means the issue that hinders our growth is not holding our hands until we spiritually “mature” enough to receive the Spirit. Our problem is resisting what the Spirit has already given us: the living and active Word of God.

If you can show me where the Bible clearly teaches a second reception of the Spirit for believers who already belong to Christ, post the verses and let’s examine them in context. Until then, let’s not build doctrines the apostles didn’t lay down.

After His resurrection, Jesus breathed on His disciples and said "Receive ye the Holy Spirit." They couldn't be born of the spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead. But they still needed to wait to be filled with the Holy Spirit when He came at Pentecost. Elsewhere it was asked of believers who had come to faith but had not yet been baptized with the Holy Spirit...."Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" They hadn't yet heard of the Holy Spirit and didn't know they still needed to be filled/receive Him.

I old testament scrips, the firstborn in a family received a double portion inheritance from their parents.....as we are the church of the firstborn we may likewise receive a double portion of the Holy Spirit. A second dose, so to speak. The parable of the ten virgins supports this as well.