Could Ezekiel 37, 38 and 39 all be post millennial?

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grafted branch

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Scripture clearly shows us that “the saints will judge the world” and “shall judge angels.” In short, the righteous judge the wicked through their spiritual standing “in Christ.” As “joint-heirs” with the Savior (Romans 8:18), we stand with Him in the judgment. This is a very privileged position.
I’m not arguing against what you’re saying, it makes sense, but would you say that when we do judge, the only sins that are going to be un-forgiven will be the sins that unbelievers commit against other unbelievers? Or are we going to pronounce the unbelievers guilty for the sins they have committed against us?

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
 
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shepherdsword

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You started this OP some days ago and have yet to explain why you think this is the solution. Speaking for myself, I gave numerous reasons why I don't think it is the solution. But that doesn't explain why you think it is the solution by placing all 3 chapters after the millennium during satan's little season.
You want me to explain why I asked a question? Because that's what I am doing, asking a question.
 

Davidpt

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You want me to explain why I asked a question? Because that's what I am doing, asking a question.

I thought you asked the question because you personally maybe thought those 3 chapters might fit postmill? Maybe just wrong assumptions on my part since you did not explain why that might be worthy or not worthy of pursuing further. Therefore, if you perhaps think those 3 chapters can maybe fit postmil, I would be interested in hearing some reasons why.

I have heard others argue in the past, for example, Ezekiel 38:8, only makes sense if meaning after a future millennium. That verse 8 can't fit Israel at this point in time. On the surface, that sounds reasonable. But then look what happens if we have it meaning a thousand years after Christ has returned.

Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.


And that makes sense exactly how? Especially the fact the Lord Himself would have been bodily present on the planet for the past 1k years, but He was never known in the eyes of many nations, and that none of these many nations even know that He is the Lord until after He executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude first? Not to mention, something I already mentioned, where then does the aftermath pertaining to 7 years, and 7 months, in Ezekiel 39 fit, since postmil would be involving satan's little season after the millennium?

Then there is Ezekiel 39:29 to factor in here, in relation to when Ezekiel 37 is meaning.

Ezekiel 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Though, some disagree with me, even some Premils, I take this to be meaning after God executes His judgment on Gog and his multitude. Should we assume they are still unbelieving Jews at this point? Or should we assume they have transitioned into the body of Christ, thus the church?

Could Ezekiel 39:29 be the fulfillment of the following?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
 
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Davidpt

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I’m not arguing against what you’re saying, it makes sense, but would you say that when we do judge, the only sins that are going to be un-forgiven will be the sins that unbelievers commit against other unbelievers? Or are we going to pronounce the unbelievers guilty for the sins they have committed against us?

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

In Revelation 20:11-15, for example, I only see God alone judging everyone. Nowhere in those verses do I see the saved co-judging with Him. Though, I don't take the sheep and goats judgment to be meaning te GWTJ, the same is equally true here. Nowhere in that account does it ever depict the saved co-judging with Christ over the lost.

Then there is this as well.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Where do we see any hint of any of the saved co-judging with Christ here?
 

Hiddenthings

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Please note that there is no mention of a future 1,000 years. That is because Revelation 20 relates to the here-and-now. When Christ comes it is "the end" (see it in the text above)!
Wow so many empty words in a single post!

Most of the World knows not the Christ or his existence! It's not until all organised resistance to Christ’s rule has been destroyed (Rev 19:21), the nations will then be brought into subjection under divine law (Isa. 2:2–4; 26:9; 42:4).

Before this all begins the Redeemed, having first been elevated to the political heavens (Rev 4:1; 5:9–10) will afterwards descend to the political earth to instruct and guide the nations. They shall “come down like rain upon the mown grass” (Ps. 72:6), refreshing and nurturing the people under their rule.
 

grafted branch

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In Revelation 20:11-15, for example, I only see God alone judging everyone. Nowhere in those verses do I see the saved co-judging with Him. Though, I don't take the sheep and goats judgment to be meaning te GWTJ, the same is equally true here. Nowhere in that account does it ever depict the saved co-judging with Christ over the lost.

Then there is this as well.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Where do we see any hint of any of the saved co-judging with Christ here?
I haven’t really done a study on this but I would agree with you, based on 2 Corinthians 5:10 it doesn’t appear we will co-judge with Christ at a future judgement. We currently forgive others and examine ourselves which could be looked at as us judging in the here and now but that wouldn’t mean we are co-judging at the GWTJ.
 

ewq1938

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I haven’t really done a study on this but I would agree with you, based on 2 Corinthians 5:10 it doesn’t appear we will co-judge with Christ at a future judgement. We currently forgive others and examine ourselves which could be looked at as us judging in the here and now but that wouldn’t mean we are co-judging at the GWTJ.


Any verses that suggest such a thing. I'm pretty sure even Jesus does not judge at the GWTJ in Rev 20.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

This other "person" who sent Jesus shall be the one to judge on the last day. Jesus is very clear to say he isn't the one to do this.

Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Did you see that? Jesus is NOT speaking of himself as that "last-day" judge.


Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


To recap:


"I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world" -Jesus speaking of himself.

"hath one that judgeth him" and "the same shall judge him in the last day" -Jesus speaking of his Father.

"I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me" -Jesus confirming a second time that he isn't going to be one the one judge on the last day. Jesus identifies the judge as his Father. Both Daniel and Revelation attest to this fact:




Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

"and the books were opened"


This is the Father judging not Jesus.


Gill

all, both small and great, as to age or dignity, will stand before the Judge, to be judged by him, and receive their sentence from him; and there will be books for that purpose, as here, even the same, and particularly the book of life, in which, if a man's name is not written, he will be cast into the lake of fire; see Rev_20:4, but in other things they differ; here the Judge is God the Father, the first Person in the Trinity, called the Ancient of days, distinguished from Christ, said to be like the Son of man

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.


Jesus is clearly not the "ancient of days".

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


"and the books were opened"

Same event, and it's the Father judging, not the Son on this day. Also, In the book of Revelation, "God" is a reference to "God the Father", not to God the Son.


1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


Here Peter also addresses that time when the Father judges "according to every man's work"...that's the great white throne judgement day, the last day. See how it is exactly what we find on judgment day:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.



Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Here Jesus is distinct from the other one called "God the Judge of all". Often writers will refer to God meaning the Father and mention Jesus separately to make clear the use of "God" meant "God the Father" not "God the son".

We see that here as well:


This is God the Father because verse 22 will distinguish Jesus separately:


Rom 3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

compare to this:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

"the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work"
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God" and "they were judged every man according to their works"

Clearly it is the Father judging in Rev 20.



Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here John refers to the Father as "God" and Jesus as "Christ". Though Christ is God, in the book of Revelation John will refer to the Father as God, and the Son by other titles. This is how we know who is who.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God the Father does the judging here.
 

WPM

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Wow so many empty words in a single post!

Most of the World knows not the Christ or his existence! It's not until all organised resistance to Christ’s rule has been destroyed (Rev 19:21), the nations will then be brought into subjection under divine law (Isa. 2:2–4; 26:9; 42:4).

Before this all begins the Redeemed, having first been elevated to the political heavens (Rev 4:1; 5:9–10) will afterwards descend to the political earth to instruct and guide the nations. They shall “come down like rain upon the mown grass” (Ps. 72:6), refreshing and nurturing the people under their rule.
My last post refutes this!
 

shepherdsword

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It was answered.

A promised Son was born of a Woman and born under the Law Gal 4:4

Surely this is well known.
What is well known is that all things were created by Jesus Christ and any reference to his birth is dealing with his incarnation into human form. His existence before his birth is well documented in scripture...for those with eyes to see.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
 
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Hiddenthings

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What is well know is that all things were created by Jesus Christ and any reference to his birth is dealing with his incarnation into human form. His existence before his birth is well documented in scripture...for those with eyes to see.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
God has always possessed His Glory, the same Glory by which He would glorify Christ, and the same Glory that will one day glorify the saints.

The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one even as we are one. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:22–24

There is a tremendous amount of non-creedal insight in that passage to unpack.

If you read Romans 8, you’ll see the same teaching applied there.

While the Master is pre-eminent in all things, you hope to be glorified in exactly the same way that he was.
 

shepherdsword

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God has always possessed His Glory, the same Glory by which He would glorify Christ, and the same Glory that will one day glorify the saints.

The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one even as we are one. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.” John 17:22–24

There is a tremendous amount of non-creedal insight in that passage to unpack.

If you read Romans 8, you’ll see the same teaching applied there.

While the Master is pre-eminent in all things, you hope to be glorified in exactly the same way that he was.
Jesus shared in the Father's glory before the world began.
 

Hiddenthings

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Jesus shared in the Father's glory before the world began.
I think you’ve missed the full meaning of his prayer. Take time to reflect on its power, and you will understand how Christ became the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep and the firstborn from the dead. Study this death and resurrection and you can be shown the truth.
 

shepherdsword

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I think you’ve missed the full meaning of his prayer. Take time to reflect on its power, and you will understand how Christ became the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep and the firstborn from the dead. Study this death and resurrection and you can be shown the truth.
His becoming was a reference to his incarnate state. It doesn't contradict his eternal pre-existence or divinity when you understand what the "word becoming flesh" means.

Jn 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
.

later:

Jn 1:14-15
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
.

John the Baptist testified that this Word was Jesus:

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
 
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