ScottA
Well-Known Member
Is God a "metaphor" to you then--because He is spirit? Is Christ's return "in the glory of the Father"--who is spirit--only a "metaphor?"
Do you not know that to say such a thing is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
Man's Preterism, An Abomination
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Do you not know that to say such a thing is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
And here is your name-calling again.
But no, it is you--you who "have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.”
ScottA
Well-Known Member
What is missing in that understanding, is that it is "literally" impossible for every eye to see Him on one day in this world.
Which is why it says "with clouds"--because it is not in this world, but in spirit (clouds). Which comes to some in death, some when born again--"but each one in his own order."
In all cases then, yes, all religions cease that very day. Which is "the third day", the day Jesus is "perfected."
Just because Lord Jesus was crucified at His 1st coming, INSTEAD OF taking direct REIGN over ALL nations and peoples when He appeared in Jerusalem, shows us that this present world is not the time of His physical Kingdom reign, otherwise His servants would have fought at His 1st coming to prevent His crucifixion. This is actually what He was saying in that John 18:36 verse. Christ's 2nd coming... is what His physical Kingdom reign over all nations will be about.
What came at the cross then? Christ's Kingdom of The SPIRIT.
Luke 17:20-21
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! or, lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
KJV
"within you" meaning INSIDE YOU. In your spirit by The SPIRIT. Don't you recall what Jesus said about being "born again" of The SPIRIT, which happens through Faith on His death and resurrection?
In that same Luke 17 Chapter Lord Jesus continues...
Luke 17:22-24
22 And He said unto the disciples, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, 'See here; or, see there': go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in His day."
KJV
Based on what Jesus said in verse 20-21, He continues for that time of His Apostle's day, they will desire to see one day of His Kingdom back then, i.e., "one of the days of the Son of man," but they won't see it, because...
As lightening shines from one part of the sky to the other, so shall the day of Christ's future SECOND COMING be. And by that Jesus was pointing directly to His future RETURN to this earth, His 2nd coming, which is when He will take LITERAL PHYSICAL REIGN over all nations on earth.
What then happened when The Gospel began to be accepted by nations in the West, the early Church began thinking what you are saying, that since Lord Jesus died on the cross and brought His Kingdom of The Spirit, that meant NOW Christ's people were to take rule over the nations, and thus the whole world. Certain political Christian groups today still... think this for this present world time, and are actually helping Satan's host to build a New World Order.
And the fact of the Revelation beast kingdom prophecy that is coming in our days with that New World Order, that is major evidence that Christ's physical Kingdom is not yet, and definitely not of this present world time. The "dragon" is coming to reign over all nations for 42 months, as written there in Revelation 13. Have you missed that?
OK, here's another factoid about this topic on men's false doctrine called Preterism.
How many comings of Lord Jesus Christ are written of in God's Word?
ANSWER: TWO
And it must be remembered that Christ and His Apostles referred to Old Testament prophecy about that number of His comings.
Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV
a. Verse 9 above is about Lord Jesus' 1st coming, lowly on an ass, riding into Jerusalem. The purpose of His 1st coming to serve as the Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time. It was not time for His literal physical reign over all nations.
b. Verse 10 though is about Christ's future 2nd coming, which is about His future literal physical reign over all nations on earth. That is when He will have literal dominion upon this earth over all nations and peoples. And that word dominion means a Kingdom with a King. Lord Jesus is to inherit his flesh father David's earthly throne.
If you pay attention to what men's false doctrines like Preterism is teaching, it does not truly recognize Christ's 2nd coming, like that 10th verse, because they are busy saying Christ is sitting upon His throne already today, but in Heaven, and reigning from Heaven. No, Lord Jesus is returning back to this earth, WITH His faithful saints, as written in Zechariah 14. Here, on earth, is where He and His saints will reign over all nations, with His sitting upon David's earthly throne in new Jerusalem which will be upon this earth in the holy land.
How many comings of Lord Jesus Christ are written of in God's Word?
ANSWER: TWO
And it must be remembered that Christ and His Apostles referred to Old Testament prophecy about that number of His comings.
Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV
a. Verse 9 above is about Lord Jesus' 1st coming, lowly on an ass, riding into Jerusalem. The purpose of His 1st coming to serve as the Perfect Sacrifice for sin for one and all time. It was not time for His literal physical reign over all nations.
b. Verse 10 though is about Christ's future 2nd coming, which is about His future literal physical reign over all nations on earth. That is when He will have literal dominion upon this earth over all nations and peoples. And that word dominion means a Kingdom with a King. Lord Jesus is to inherit his flesh father David's earthly throne.
If you pay attention to what men's false doctrines like Preterism is teaching, it does not truly recognize Christ's 2nd coming, like that 10th verse, because they are busy saying Christ is sitting upon His throne already today, but in Heaven, and reigning from Heaven. No, Lord Jesus is returning back to this earth, WITH His faithful saints, as written in Zechariah 14. Here, on earth, is where He and His saints will reign over all nations, with His sitting upon David's earthly throne in new Jerusalem which will be upon this earth in the holy land.
Yes, each one in his own order speaks of spiritually building the Kingdom of God in heaven as the gospel is proclaimed and one by one souls are being eternally saved. Then when time given this earth for building the Kingdom of God in heaven, the last trumpet will sound that Christ has come again and all who have been saved will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air, and God will send fire down upon the whole earth preparing the way for the new heaven and new earth where the saints of Christ shall be with Christ throughout eternity.
I agree the doctrine of Preterism does not come FROM the Bible, but must be READ INTO the Bible! But I don't see your understanding of the Bible coming FROM the Bible either, rather you're READING INTO the Bible desperately trying to prove your unbiblical doctrines!
The Bible does indeed show us there are two comings of Christ in human form. But the Bible also show us that Christ shall come through His Spirit to be within every believer when man is born again.
You lack understanding of how Christ is NOW, since He ascended to heaven, after He arose from the dead, reigning over the whole earth through His Spirit that is within every true saint, as He through His Spirit enters within every true believer. That is Christ coming to us in SPIRIT!
You have no knowledge of the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ came to man with, that's why you try to divide Zech prophecy as though he is writing of two separate physical comings of Christ as man to be upon this earth. The prophets ALL write only of a single coming of the Messiah to earth a man, saying all they prophecy shall be fulfilled not with two physical comings of Christ to this earth. NO! But that all they have written concerning the promised Messiah would be fulfilled when He would come with the Kingdom of God to earth as man ONCE. Then Christ will be seen in human form coming again with the clouds when the last trumpet begins to sound the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and time for this earth shall be no longer.
JLB
Well-Known Member
The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at His coming.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15
JLB
Well-Known Member
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28
- To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time
He came once already.
He will come a second time to gather His people together at the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture, in which He destroys the wicked.
JLB
Well-Known Member
As long as people are getting married and people die, then Jesus has not yet returned, and the resurrection of the dead in Christ has not yet happened.
Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:34-36
- But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore
The resurrection is still future and is not past.
JLB
Well-Known Member
‘Why?
Do you believe Jesus is limited to appearing to just one person at a time?
Do you believe Jesus is limited to dwelling in just one person at a time?
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yes, for Stephen did not ascend, but Jesus and the Father came (again) to where he was--even showing that ascension is not actually up, but "within" as Jesus said, and only metaphorically up, as being "higher", as God is higher.
But the important thing to learn and to know--is He did not come in the "future" as some believe, but that very hour as Paul clarified, saying, "but each one in his own order."
I think I see the issue. For your version to work, you need for there to be two kingdoms of God (a spiritual and a literal) and two second comings of Christ (a spiritual and a literal). How do you discern which coming a verse is talking about?
Are these three verses talking about His spiritual coming or His physical coming that you seem to think exists? All three have time constraints limiting the second coming to the lifetimes of the disciples.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mrk 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
So it may seem, but there is still part of that lost in translation and common understanding.
What is unseen is that salvation which comes "but each one in his own order" is that holy fire come down. But the earth is not dissolved until the last trump. There is more, but it is enough for now..."here a little there a little."
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Two different worlds, JLB. The resurrection is an entirely new world - a spiritual world, not earthly. In the spiritual world, also known as heavenly Jerusalem or the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no such thing as marriage.
Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Truth7t7
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More reformed preterist garb in 70AD fulfillment, just another false teaching nothing newThe Judaean Christians knew that Jesus did give a warning; they heeded and acted upon it, and preserved their lives.
Because not one of them listened to you.
Truth7t7
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Your suggesting that the biblical resurrection takes place at the believers individual personal death?
There is one future resurrection and final judgement of all that have lived, this takes place at the Lord's future second coming on the last day (The End)
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Which then ignores some of what the passage plainly says--Behold, he cometh with clouds. What you are proposing couldn't possibly explain that part. One can't divorce--and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him---from---Behold, he cometh with clouds
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Interestingly enough, Revelation 1:7 involves coming with clouds, and involves all kindreds of the earth shall see Him and shall wail because of him, and so does Matthew 24:30 involve all these same things.
Not even Preterists, who, as wrong as they are a lot of the time, would remotely interpret Matthew 24:30 in the manner you are interpreting Revelation 1:7. It is a major red flag when one person alone is allegedly interpreting something correctly, but nobody else is. But at least it clearly exposes who some of the false teachers are.
Not one.
Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into his body, and cast out all them that sold and bought in his body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
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