Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[rwb]

Are "angels" the "spirits" within the righteous and the wicked? Basically: are "demons" (or "evil angels") the spirits of the wicked? Are "elect angels" the spirits of the righteous?

Angels are spirits of God sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. The only Spirit within the righteous is the Holy Spirit of Christ. Demons/devils/Satan are evil spirits, not angels, that can and often do inhabit unsaved people of the world, using them (mind, heart, will, emotions) to do his bidding. There is no such thing as "elect angels". Elect angels in this verse is not reference to spirit beings, but to HUMAN MESSENGERS of God. Which is how 'angels' is rightly defined.

1 Timothy 5:21 (KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

The Bible to my knowledge refers to Chief MESSENGERS, but I don't find 'elect' spirit beings that are angels of God anywhere in Scripture, except in this one verse that properly understood is elect human messengers of God.

 

[rwb]

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, and became sinners of their free will when they disobeyed God, how do you reconcile the contradiction? Will you also ignore the contradiction because it does not fit your doctrine? This is the main point of the discussion that continues to go unanswered.

What contradiction? A&E were from the beginning created without knowledge of good or evil. They gained knowledge of good and evil only after they sinned against God. Unlike A&E Satan from the beginning is not without this knowledge of good and evil, because Christ tells us from the beginning Satan is a murderer and liar.

The freewill man had been created with became under bondage to sin and death. Since the way to the tree of life was blocked from A&E after they sinned against God, they no longer of their own freewill had access to the tree of life to live forever. To be in bondage to sin and death is to be under the bondage of Satan, the serpent that deceived them became their new master, now with natural spirit of darkness their mind, heart, will and emotions could now be used to serve evil rather than God, leaving them destined to die without the Savior.

 

[rwb]

This shows that Satan was an "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:14&16), was at one time in the "Paradise of God" (Ezekiel 28:13), he protected "the holy mountain of God" (Ezekiel 28:14), he was created "perfect" in his ways "from the day" he was "created" till "iniquity was found in" him (Ezekiel 28:15).

King of Tyrus was not so.

No! It does not say Satan was an anointed cherub! That's you reading your unbiblical doctrine into the passage!

 

[WPM]

Angels are spirits of God sent to minister to the heirs of salvation. The only Spirit within the righteous is the Holy Spirit of Christ. Demons/devils/Satan are evil spirits, not angels, that can and often do inhabit unsaved people of the world, using them (mind, heart, will, emotions) to do his bidding. There is no such thing as "elect angels". Elect angels in this verse is not reference to spirit beings, but to HUMAN MESSENGERS of God. Which is how 'angels' is rightly defined.

1 Timothy 5:21 (KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

The Bible to my knowledge refers to Chief MESSENGERS, but I don't find 'elect' spirit beings that are angels of God anywhere in Scripture, except in this one verse that properly understood is elect human messengers of God.

1. So, angels (who are spirits of God) are distinct to man?
2. Do they work independent of man, albeit they are "sent to minister to the heirs of salvation"?
3. Where do they come from?
4. Were angels here before man?
5. Were angels in heaven before the first resurrection?

 

[WPM]

No! It does not say Satan was an anointed cherub! That's you reading your unbiblical doctrine into the passage!

So, who is this describing?

 

[WPM]

What contradiction? A&E were from the beginning created without knowledge of good or evil. They gained knowledge of good and evil only after they sinned against God. Unlike A&E Satan from the beginning is not without this knowledge of good and evil, because Christ tells us from the beginning Satan is a murderer and liar.

I have already explained this and you have already totally avoided each point and Scripture. I will repeat.

The phase "the beginning" typically refers to the beginning of creation and earth. Just like the regeneration when Jesus comes refers to "the end" of creation and earth as we know it. Every solid theologian I know believes that Satan rebelled and fell before the beginning of creation and earth. He was a leader of the angelic host in. heaven.

The beginning

We see a reference to the beginning of time in Isaiah 41:4: “Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh]? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.”

Isaiah 41:4 corresponds with what is taught in Revelation 22:6 and

Revelation 22:13. It presents the same great truth. This word indeed describes the commencement of time.

As for the New Testament word for “the beginning,” the word archē is employed throughout to describe the creation week. We see Jesus employing it in Matthew 19:4: “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.”

So, these three original words ably describe the beginning of human existence, time and creation as we know it.

Heaven and earth created at the beginning

So, according to Scripture, what happened at the beginning?

• It was the beginning of natural creation.
• It was the beginning of human life.
• It was the beginning of time.

Genesis 1:1 tells us: “In the beginning [Heb. rê'shı̂yth] God created the heaven and the earth.”

I want you to see something very important here: the beginning is often identified in Scripture with creation. You will notice that throughout the Word of God. We will be highlighting that as we progress in our studies.

Natural creation commenced at the beginning.

In Isaiah 40:21 we learn: “Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh]? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?”

What is this telling us? The exact same thing, only in different terms. This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that to know “from the beginning” is to know from “the foundations of the earth.” These are synonymous realities.

Solomon places both occurrences together in Proverbs 8:23 in his succinct statement: “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh], or ever the earth was.”

This word rô'sh takes us back to the start, when the earth was created, the genesis of man and creation began, which saw the origin of life as we know it and the commencement of time.

Believers through the years have little difficulty with grasping this great truth. This is not just restricted to the Old Testament pages. We find it throughout the New Testament.

Believers through the years have little difficulty with grasping this great truth. This is not just restricted to the Old Testament pages. We find it throughout the New Testament. For example, Hebrews 1:10-12 reinforces this thought, only in greater detail, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning [Gr. archē] hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”

Here we see the duration of this current earth and the whole span of time outlined from the beginning till the end. This corresponds with the current creation around us. It describes the forming of the earth (which was originally perfect), followed by the gradual decay after the Fall (because of the bondage of corruption), and its final replacement at the end to a new glorified eternal incorrupt status.

The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning “end.” They are the antithesis of each other. The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished. Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” [Gr. telos] to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of this age and of time.

Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”

This corrupt earth is not going to last forever. It has an expiration date. You will discover that it is the glorious return of Jesus Christ.

Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events.

 

[WPM]

What contradiction? A&E were from the beginning created without knowledge of good or evil. They gained knowledge of good and evil only after they sinned against God. Unlike A&E Satan from the beginning is not without this knowledge of good and evil, because Christ tells us from the beginning Satan is a murderer and liar.

It doesn't say that. You impute that into the narrative. Everything God created was very good, including Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve did good before God or they could not have been in a right relationship with Him.

 

[rwb]

1. So, angels (who are spirits of God) are distinct to man?
2. Do they work independent of man, albeit they are "sent to minister to the heirs of salvation"?
3. Where do they come from?
4. Where angels here before man?
5. Where angels in heaven before the first resurrection?

1. Angels of God are spirit, humans are flesh & blood
2. Not really according to how translators have translated MESSENGERS of God as angels. There is much confusion in Scripture because the translators' biases have been inserted into Holy Writ, sometimes translating angelos spirit angels of God, spirit angels of Satan, as well as human messengers.
3. To my knowledge the Bible does not explicitly say. We read only that spirit beings as angels of God are His messengers seen in heaven, which is the realm of God, and we also read that angels of God are spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation.
4. The Bible does not give us information about when angels of God were created. One thing I can say with absolute confidence is that angel are not stars singing for joy at creation. In fact we have good reason to believe angels not only in Job but also in Rev 12 symbolize man created to be messengers of God's Light to the world. Which btw is how Lucifer is defined. Satan can never have been the bearer of light or shining one since from creation he was and has always been a murderer and liar.
5. From the visions of John in the Revelation and even in the Psalms it seems spirit beings called angels of God are spiritual residents of God in heaven always???

 

[WPM]

1. Angels of God are spirit, humans are flesh & blood
2. Not really according to how translators have translated MESSENGERS of God as angels. There is much confusion in Scripture because the translators' biases have been inserted into Holy Writ, sometimes translating angelos spirit angels of God, spirit angels of Satan, as well as human messengers.
3. To my knowledge the Bible does not explicitly say. We read only that spirit beings as angels of God are His messengers seen in heaven, which is the realm of God, and we also read that angels of God are spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation.
4. The Bible does not give us information about when angels of God were created. One thing I can say with absolute confidence is that angel are not stars singing for joy at creation. In fact we have good reason to believe angels not only in Job but also in Rev 12 symbolize man created to be messengers of God's Light to the world. Which btw is how Lucifer is defined. Satan can never have been the bearer of light or shining one since from creation he was and has always been a murderer and liar.
5. From the visions of John in the Revelation and even in the Psalms it seems spirit beings called angels of God are spiritual residents of God in heaven always???

Why did you place 3 questions marks after the last answer?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you think Ezekiel 28 refers to Adam, as TribulationSigns claims? Where does scripture indicate that Adam ever claimed to be a god or that Adam was the anointed cherub who covers or that he was ever condemned by God the way Ezekiel 28 describes? Scripture never speaks of Adam in that way. Why are you so quick to defend someone like TribulationSigns who foolishly denies the existence of spirit beings called angels and demons/devils?

Nothing but the sound of crickets in response to this post. Not surprising.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is Satan or was he ever called anointed cherub?

Yes, in Ezekiel 28:14. If that isn't referring to Satan, then who is it referring to? Do you actually think a human being, as in the human king of Tyre, would be called the anointed cherub who protects the holy mountain of God? That's nonsense. Not quite as nonsensical as TribulationSigns claiming that the king of Tyre is Adam, but nonsensical nonetheless.

How was the serpent in the paradise of God?

Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

How or when did Satan protect the holy mountain of God?

Since Satan was from the beginning a murderer and liar when does Scripture tell us Satan was created perfect in his ways from the day he was created (whenever was that?) until iniquity was found in him?

Scripture teaches that everything God created before sin occurred, which had to include Satan, was very good (Genesis 1:31). Your claim that Satan was created to be a murderer from the moment he was created blatantly contradicts that fact. Why do you not care that you believe something that blatantly contradicts the fact that everything God created was very good?

Do you take every verse as literally as you take the one that says Satan was a murderer from the beginning? Is that really saying he was a murderer from the moment he himself was created or is it saying he was a murderer from the beginning of his interactions with human beings? I believe it's the latter. It can't mean the former because everything God created was very good. A fact that you deny by claiming that Satan was created very bad instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You just make stuff up??? Isn't it you who denies real angels of God, trying desperately to prove Satan was before he sinned created to be an angel of God?

You should be embarrassed for saying nonsense like this. Never has WPM indicated whatsoever that he "denies real angels of God". Ridiculous comment!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your last series of posts are watertight in IMHO. Great questions Paul.
I hope they are adequately addressed.

If you've read the rest of the thread, then, based on the previous discussion, you know they won't be adequately addressed. Not even close.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible shows us there are both spirit messengers of God called angels, and there are spirit messengers of Satan called demons.

Hey @TribulationSigns, what are your thoughts on what rwb said here?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you continue to duck around my questions? What is more, I have already addressed and rebutted your argument above and you have already avoided my rebuttal.

The phase "the beginning" typically refers to the beginning of creation and earth. Just like the regeneration when Jesus comes refers to "the end" of creation and earth as we know it. Every solid theologian I know believes that Satan rebelled and fell before the beginning of creation and earth. He was a leader of the angelic host in. heaven.

The beginning

We see a reference to the beginning of time in Isaiah 41:4: “Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh]? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.”

Isaiah 41:4 corresponds with what is taught in Revelation 22:6 and

Revelation 22:13. It presents the same great truth. This word indeed describes the commencement of time.

As for the New Testament word for “the beginning,” the word archē is employed throughout to describe the creation week. We see Jesus employing it in Matthew 19:4: “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.”

So, these three original words ably describe the beginning of human existence, time and creation as we know it.

Heaven and earth created at the beginning

So, according to Scripture, what happened at the beginning?

• It was the beginning of natural creation.
• It was the beginning of human life.
• It was the beginning of time.

Genesis 1:1 tells us: “In the beginning [Heb. rê'shı̂yth] God created the heaven and the earth.”

I want you to see something very important here: the beginning is often identified in Scripture with creation. You will notice that throughout the Word of God. We will be highlighting that as we progress in our studies.

Natural creation commenced at the beginning.

In Isaiah 40:21 we learn: “Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh]? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?”

What is this telling us? The exact same thing, only in different terms. This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that to know “from the beginning” is to know from “the foundations of the earth.” These are synonymous realities.

Solomon places both occurrences together in Proverbs 8:23 in his succinct statement: “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh], or ever the earth was.”

This word rô'sh takes us back to the start, when the earth was created, the genesis of man and creation began, which saw the origin of life as we know it and the commencement of time.

Believers through the years have little difficulty with grasping this great truth. This is not just restricted to the Old Testament pages. We find it throughout the New Testament.

Believers through the years have little difficulty with grasping this great truth. This is not just restricted to the Old Testament pages. We find it throughout the New Testament. For example, Hebrews 1:10-12 reinforces this thought, only in greater detail, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning [Gr. archē] hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”

Here we see the duration of this current earth and the whole span of time outlined from the beginning till the end. This corresponds with the current creation around us. It describes the forming of the earth (which was originally perfect), followed by the gradual decay after the Fall (because of the bondage of corruption), and its final replacement at the end to a new glorified eternal incorrupt status.

The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning “end.” They are the antithesis of each other. The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished. Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” [Gr. telos] to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of this age and of time.

Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”

This corrupt earth is not going to last forever. It has an expiration date. You will discover that it is the glorious return of Jesus Christ.

Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events.

Exactly. So, when Jesus said that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, He was not saying that Satan was a murderer from the moment he was created, as rwb falsely believes. He was saying that Satan was a murderer from the beginning of the creation of man or from the beginning of his interactions with man. He had already fallen and rebelled against God before that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your questions have been repeatedly answered, but since you don't like the answers, you give no biblical rebuttal and instead misquote, or take what is said out of context to make it appear I don't believe in spirits of God called angels or spirits of Satan called demons.

In fairness to WPM, your constant approvals of posts made by TribulationSigns where he denied the existence of spirits of God called angels and spirits of Satan called demons, must have made him think you agreed with him about that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The question regarding the existence of Satan I believe stems from these verses:

Genesis 1:2 (KJV) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This refers to physical darkness that is explicitly related to the night time in contrast to the physical light that is explicitly related to the day time. You have been shown this and have refused to accept the correction of your misinterpretation of this verse.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Darkness throughout the Bible is used metaphorically as misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness.

Why do you act as if every reference to darkness in scripture is metaphorical? Is this referring to metaphorical darkness over the land of Egypt...

Exodus 10:21 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, darkness which may even be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. 23 They did not see one another; nor did anyone rise from his place for three days. But all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.

Is the following referring to metaphorical darkness occurring at night when the sun goes down and "all the beasts of the forest creep about"?

Psalm 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons; The sun knows its going down. 20 You make darkness, and it is night, In which all the beasts of the forest creep about.

Is the following referring to metaphorical darkness over all the land when Jesus was being crucified?

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Why/when did God create the darkness? Because it seems to already exist when God formed the light. Why does God tell us darkness and evil are created by Him?

Again, the darkness God created is contrasted with the physical light that God created. You are badly misinterpreting Genesis 1. Very badly.

 

[rwb]

It doesn't say that. You impute that into the narrative. Everything God created was very good, including Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve did good before God or they could not have been in a right relationship with Him.

I'm not interested in your opinions! If you want me to take you seriously, and you believe I've imputed something unbiblical into the narrative, prove what you allege through the Word of God.

 

[rwb]

So, who is this describing?

A fallen man! Symbolizing fallen humanity!

 

[rwb]

In fairness to WPM, your constant approvals of posts made by TribulationSigns where he denied the existence of spirits of God called angels and spirits of Satan called demons, must have made him think you agreed with him about that.

That is you & WPM reading into or even twisting/mischaracterizing what TS has said ignoring ALL that he has said. I don't read his post as him denying the existence of spirits of God and spirits of Satan. What he says, and I agree is that man spiritually becomes the children of the spirit that indwells them. When we are indwelt with the Spirit of Christ we are children/sons of God. When we are indwelt with the spirit of evil we are children/sons of the evil one.