The "watch rapture view"

[The Light]

No, the gathering by angels (the rapture) happens at the 7th/last trump.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

From the two scriptures above we can be 100% sure that the gathering by the angels takes place at the 6th seal.

There is absolutely nothing at the 7th trumpet even remotely akin to a gathering by the angels. There is no proof whatsoever. It seems like you constantly deny what the Word says and then just make it say what you want.

I realize you will not agree with the scriptures which prove without question that the gathering by the angels takes place at the 6th seal which is the end of the age. However, if you ever decide to start using scripture to form an end times timeline this would be a good place to start.

 

[Davy]

The resurrection/rapture event will evacuate Christians from the earth before the person becomes the beast in Revelation.

Nope... afraid not. That pre-trib rapture idea is man's idea, not God's. It is nowhere written in God's Word. Instead, Jesus revealed just the opposite, that the time of His future 2nd coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation. So you can keep pushing that LIE all you want here, on purpose, but I myself or someone else who has studied their Bible will always point out that you are pushing a doctrine of men not written in The Bible, regardless of how popular it is, and regardless of how many FAKE timeline charts you make up.

The beast will rule from Jerusalem, but his army will be from the EU.

Revelation 11;2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Nope... wrong again. God gave the list of nations that will be aligned with the beast, and will come upon God's people at the end of this world. They are given in Ezekiel 38.

And they are:
1. Russia (chief prince of Meshech, from which comes the word 'Rus', an old name for Russia)
2. Libya (no explanation needed)
3. Iran-Iraq (area of old Persia)
4. Old Soviet satellites like Georgia (Gomer)
5. Ethiopia (actually modern Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, nations south of Egypt aligned with Russia.
6. Turkey (old area of Cappadocia), now in NATO, but it is a Muslim nation and will turn.

Now if you see ANY WESTERN nation in that above list of Ezekiel 38, then you need some serious eye glasses.

 

[Davy]

WHO... then actually are behind today's propaganda towards Western Nations being where the Revelation 13 beast will originate??

1.
Many have heard me say it again and again, the 'false Jews' of the "synagogue of Satan" that Lord Jesus identified in Rev.2:9 and Rev.3:9 are the primary suspects. They represent Satan's elect working for him here on earth, and they know it. These are not true Jews of the seed of Israel, but imposters who claim... to be Jews. They crept in among brother Judah long ago from pagan nations like the Amorites, Canaanites, Jebusites, etc. (See Judges 2 & 3) They represent the "tares" in Lord Jesus' parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13.

That "synagogue of Satan" has been a thorn in Israel's side throughout Israel's history, with the majority of the people of Israel not being aware of them. They caused Solomon to fall away by his allowing his many wives of those foreigners to bring in their idol worship among the children of Israel. They made up the scribes and Pharisees that followed Lord Jesus around trying to trap Him so they could have Him executed (and not all Pharisees were part of that working). The scribes of Israel were from a foreign people of the land of Canaan called Kenites. They were in charge of keeping copies of God's written Word from generation to generation and they weren't even of the seed of Israel (See 1 Chronicles 2:55)

These workers for Satan naturally do not want the world to know what they have planned for JERUSALEM at the end of this world with their one-world beast system of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. It doesn't matter where... they work from, New York, Brussels, Rome, London, Paris, Frankfort, Lebanon, Iran, Russia, or even Israel, their PLAN is for JERUSALEM. They only use... the power of Western nations to aid in their PLAN. But their PLAN belongs to them and Satan which is outside... the Western Nations.

Russia is top dog in their PLAN, even though they work hard to hide it. Western Socialists work with Communist Russia and the rest of the Communist nations in the PLAN for "one world government." When the United Nations charter was formed, the Communist Russians agreed only if its main plan was a "one world government" (from ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen's 1958 book The Naked Communist).

2.
The next group of suspects are those leaders who work for them which hide... in Christian organized denominations. Moscow has Christian summits every once in a while to teach those so-called Christian pastors and leaders pacifist and disarmament policy and take it back to their Church denominations. One of Communism's long-range strategies against the Christian West is to push Social religion instead of Revealed religion from The Bible (again per Skousen, and 1960's ex-KGB colonel and defector Anatoliy Golitsyn). Thus World Socialism hiding in secret in the Christian Church is the second major suspect.

3.
Satan's elect behind the Greater Mysteries of the secret initiate fraternities who think it is their duty to rule the world, and have been working their PLAN in secret towards the one-world beast government for centuries. They control all walks of modern life in ALL... nations, and meet in secret. The main political document by them leaked back in the 1800's was their Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which is an outline of Protocols from a secret meeting about their long-range PLAN for one world government and setting up their... "king of the world" (Satan on earth sitting in a new temple in JERUSALEM at the END). A copy of it was entered into the British Museum in 1903.

4.
The DECEIVED who unknowingly work for the above groups. These can represent whole Christian congregations that have been tricked to follow the one-world socialism boat, and supporting all religions of the world (world religious ecumenicalism). The deceived controlling these so-called churches are allowing representatives from other religions to come in among Christian congregations and put on a show of pagan worship. Some Buddhists would even chant mantras in front of the communion table of Christ! (picture in a Chicago newspaper in the 1980's).

JESUS WARNED US:
The first warning Lord Jesus gave His faithful disciples about the END was to not allow any man to deceive us (Matt.24). That's all I'm trying to do brethren, warn against their deceptions, because there are very few Christian Churches left today that will give these warnings like the above. Those subjects are religious and political taboo in Church organizational systems controlled by Christ's enemies. Those have even made it a law in some states that a Christian pastor cannot recommend to the congregation who to vote for in an election, which of course in the U.S. is a violation of the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

 

[ewq1938]

From the two scriptures above we can be 100% sure that the gathering by the angels takes place at the 6th seal.

Nope.

In the OD Christ described the events of the 7th trump.
The 6th seal describes events of the 7th trump.

The 7th trump is the only time when the events actually happen. These two and other passages all speak of the coming of Christ and what happens which is the 7th and last trumpet of Rev.

 

[ewq1938]

The resurrection/rapture event will evacuate Christians from the earth before the person becomes the beast in Revelation.

Paul said it happens AFTER the beast is revealed not before.

 

[Davy]

Nope.

In the OD Christ described the events of the 7th trump.
The 6th seal describes events of the 7th trump.

The 7th trump is the only time when the events actually happen. These two and other passages all speak of the coming of Christ and what happens which is the 7th and last trumpet of Rev.

Very true, because the object of the SEALS being given in Revelation 6 is about Jesus 'revealing' knowledge of the main SIGNS of the END, opening one SEAL at a time.

The action is actually what the Trumpets represent, just like how Trumpets were used to signal the start of a battle, and the moves of armies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree that Rev 14:19 is talking about the same event as Rev 19:15. So in that regard I was incorrect.

Mistakes happen, but I do think this shows that you are too quick to just automatically disagree with me without really thinking very hard about what we're talking about. Slow down and give these things more thought.

But the point is, that the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is not the coming of Jesus when He returns on white horses in Revelation 19.

LOL. What? You just said that Revelation 14:19 is talking about the same event as Revelation 19:15. Now, you're saying something which contradicts that by saying they're not talking about the same coming of Jesus. Make up your mind. Do you think that Revelation 14:14-20 and Revelation 19:11-21 are the same event or not?

The righteous are gathered from the earth at the 6th seal, and the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God which will begin when the 7th seal is opened.

The gathering of the righteous occurs right before the wrath of God occurs, as Revelation 14:14-20 shows.

When the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God, they are not cast straight into Armageddon.

What does that even mean?

They are cast into the first trumpet/vial, followed by trumpets/vials two thru 6, before the great winepress occurs at Armageddon.

Cast into the first trumpet/vial? Huh? I can't make any sense of anything you're saying. I don't want to waste any more time trying to decipher your nonsense. I've already spent way too much time doing that in the past. I need try harder to remember that discussing these things with you is a complete waste of time. That's on me.

 

[The Light]

Nope.

In the OD Christ described the events of the 7th trump.

There is nothing about any of the trumpets or vials of God wrath in the OD including the 7th trumpet. The OD talks about the great tribulation and the gathering that occurs at the end of the great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins which is the trumpets and vials.

The 6th seal describes events of the 7th trump.

Absolutely not. Each seal stands on its own. The 6th seal is a harvest at the end of the great tribulation. Christians are in heaven for the marriage supper. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7. The 7th seal is opened and the ONE YEAR wrath of God begins. Wrath ends at the 7th trumpet/7th vial.

The 7th trump is the only time when the events actually happen.

None of the seals are opened. John has vision of the seals. When each seal is actually opened the event will occur. If any seals were opened you would know who the rider on the white horse is.

These two and other passages all speak of the coming of Christ and what happens which is the 7th and last trumpet of Rev.

Christ comes for the Church before the great tribulation. Christ returns immediately after the tribulation of those days for the second fold. There are two folds. All go to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude of Rev 7. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened. We will be in heaven.....that is, those that are watching as instructed, as we are not appointed to wrath.

 

[The Light]

Mistakes happen, but I do think this shows that you are too quick to just automatically disagree with me without really thinking very hard about what we're talking about. Slow down and give these things more thought.

We are so far apart in what we believe that it makes communication difficult

LOL. What? You just said that Revelation 14:19 is talking about the same event as Revelation 19:15. Now, you're saying something which contradicts that by saying they're not talking about the same coming of Jesus. Make up your mind. Do you think that Revelation 14:14-20 and Revelation 19:11-21 are the same event or not?

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14:14 when Jesus remains on a cloud and sends His angels to gather the elect is not when Jesus comes on white horses in Revelation 19. However, after Jesus comes those that remain are cast into the wrath of God. At the end of wrath is when Jesus comes for Armageddon which is Rev 19:11-21

So at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation, Jesus returns for a harvest, which is the second coming. All believers are taken to heaven for the marriage supper and remain in heaven during the 7th seal ONE YEAR wrath of God. At the 7th trumpet Jesus returns on white horses with the armies of heaven. After that Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives, the second advent.

The gathering of the righteous occurs right before the wrath of God occurs, as Revelation 14:14-20 shows.

Correct. However, Revelation 14:14-19 occurs at the 6th seal.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

When the unrighteous are cast into wrath of God, they are cast into the 7th seal, 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is the 7th trumpet/ 7th vial of the wrath of God.

Revelation 19
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

What does that even mean?

"When the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God, they are not cast straight into Armageddon." What I am saying here is the end result of being cast into the wrath of God will be Armageddon. However, when they are cast into the wrath of God they are not cast directly into Armageddon, they are cast into the ONE YEAR 7th seal wrath of God which contains all the trumpets and vials.

Cast into the first trumpet/vial? Huh? I can't make any sense of anything you're saying. I don't want to waste any more time trying to decipher your nonsense. I've already spent way too much time doing that in the past. I need try harder to remember that discussing these things with you is a complete waste of time. That's on me.

Your error is thinking that the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel. The trumpets and vials are parallel, meaning that the trumpets and vials occur in the same timeframe which is the 7th seal wrath of God. But seals are not parallel. Understanding that the seals happen in order proves that they cannot be parallel.

At the 6th seal, the great tribulation is over, and Jesus returns for a harvest. All go to heaven for the marriage and are in heaven during the 7th seal wrath of God. Whereas you want to make the 6th seal the same thing as the 7th trumpet, which it is not.

The great tribulation is when the dragon is killing Christians and Jews. It is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. Wrath is when God is taking vengeance on an evil unbelieving world. The great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same. Therefore the 6th seal cannot be parallel to the 7th trumpet.

 

[Douggg]

Nope... afraid not. That pre-trib rapture idea is man's idea, not God's. It is nowhere written in God's Word. Instead, Jesus revealed just the opposite, that the time of His future 2nd coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation. So you can keep pushing that LIE all you want here, on purpose, but I myself or someone else who has studied their Bible will always point out that you are pushing a doctrine of men not written in The Bible, regardless of how popular it is, and regardless of how many FAKE timeline charts you make up.

I did not say pre-trib, but before the 42 months reign of the beast.

Jesus did not reveal that the rapture will take place after the great tribulation.

 

[Davy]

I did not say pre-trib, but before the 42 months reign of the beast.

Jesus did not reveal that the rapture will take place after the great tribulation.

View attachment 80361

Right! Pull my OTHER LEG and it PLAYS JINGLE BELLS!

 

[Douggg]

Right! Pull my OTHER LEG and it PLAYS JINGLE BELLS!

Turn your eyes upon Jesus,
Look full in His wonderful face,
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim,
In the light of His glory and grace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We are so far apart in what we believe that it makes communication difficult

If not impossible. So be it. So, let's not waste any more time trying to discuss these things because of that.

Your error is thinking that the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel.

Nope. Your error is not recognizing that they are parallel. Look at the description of the seventh trumpet. Clearly, nothing will happen after that in real time. That is when Jesus returns and then the judgment will occur.

 

[Douggg]

Nope. Your error is not recognizing that they are parallel. Look at the description of the seventh trumpet. Clearly, nothing will happen after that in real time. That is when Jesus returns and then the judgment will occur.

The seventh trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. The third woe is in Revelation 12:12 of Satan having great wrath knowing that his time is short. Revelation 12:14 that short time is a time, times, half time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The seventh trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. The third woe is in Revelation 12:12 of Satan having great wrath knowing that his time is short. Revelation 12:14 that short time is a time, times, half time.

The seventh trumpet announces that it's the time for the dead to be judged and the description of the dead being judged is found in Revelation 20:11-15.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Douggg]

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Go to Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Now, if you look at Revelation 11:15 there are voices in heaven rejoicing, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The reasons for the rejoicing is that when Satan is cast down to earth in Revelation 12:12, it begins the ending of Satan's influence over the kingdoms (nations) of this world.

Next, look at who is rejoicing in Revelation 11:65-17. It is the 24 elders seated before God.

In Revelation 11:18, the 24 elders knowing that Satan's time was coming to a close summarized everything that will happen after Jesus returns to this earth.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

When the seventh angel sounds, it will signal Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Go to Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Now, if you look at Revelation 11:15 there are voices in heaven rejoicing, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The reasons for the rejoicing is that when Satan is cast down to earth in Revelation 12:12, it begins the ending of Satan's influence over the kingdoms (nations) of this world.

Next, look at who is rejoicing in Revelation 11:65-17. It is the 24 elders seated before God.

In Revelation 11:18, the 24 elders knowing that Satan's time was coming to a close summarized everything that will happen after Jesus returns to this earth.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

When the seventh angel sounds, it will signal Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9.

Go to Revelation 20:11-15 where the dead are described as being judged. John indicated that the time for the dead to be judged will be when the seventh trumpet sounds. Therefore, the seventh trumpet will sound and the dead will be judged after the thousand years and Satan's little season are finished.

 

[ewq1938]

The seventh trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth. The third woe is in Revelation 12:12 of Satan having great wrath knowing that his time is short.

The third woe is found in Rev 11, not Rev 12.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In Rev 12 we are shown the past, which goes forward in time up to just before the trib starts. The 3rd woe/7th trump is no where in Rev 12. The 6th trump is mentioned but is also not in Rev 12. Someone "saying" the word WOE is not a woe trump.

 

[Douggg]

Go to Revelation 20:11-15 where the dead are described as being judged.

Yes, I agree. Judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.

John indicated that the time for the dead to be judged will be when the seventh trumpet sounds.

You are making the wrong conclusion. The seventh trumpet sounding takes place during the great tribulation, correct ?

Let's look at Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The judging of the dead is not a woe to the inhabiters of the earth. A woe to the inhabiters of the earth is a woe to living people at the time of the woe.

 

[Douggg]

The third woe is found in Rev 11, not Rev 12.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

In Rev 12 we are shown the past, which goes forward in time up to just before the trib starts. The 3rd woe/7th trump is no where in Rev 12. The 6th trump is mentioned but is also not in Rev 12. Someone "saying" the word WOE is not a woe trump.

John in Revelation 11:14 is speaking to the readers of Revelation. Like you and I. John is saying that we, the readers of Revelation, are going to soon find out what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be - if we keep reading.

So we keep reading and quickly find out that the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be Satan cast down to earth having great wrath knowing that his remaining time is short.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.