Are we saved by certainty, or by faith? - the mystery of salvation

[Angelina]

@pompadour @lforrest, @Heart2Soul @rockytopva @Josho @ewq1938 @Rita @Debp

Gnostics generally believe the Old Testament God is distinct from the New Testament God. They identify the Old Testament Creator (Yahweh) as a flawed or malevolent subordinate deity known as the Demiurge, whereas the New Testament features the "True God" or supreme spiritual being.

So let me make this very clear so you all know. We on CyB will tolerate atheists, agnostics, other faiths, and even unbelievers, as there is a space created for them here. However, we do not tolerate Gnostics because there is only one God, and we may have different views about what that one God looks like; for trinitarians, it translates into the Father, his Son, and the Holy Spirit.

However, Gnostics have similarities to the teachings of the Nicolatians, which God hated. Revelation 2:6-18.

 

[mailmandan]

@shepherdsword, the difference is the basis of the assurance of adherents of other religions. Others rely on being "good people," whereas our assurance as Christians is the finished work--suffering, death, resurrection--of Jesus Christ, not our own good works.

Assurance of salvation is found ONLY in Jesus Christ. 1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[Davy]

BEWARE brethren. This thread is about World Socialism, not... True Christianity.

True Christianity is simple. FAITH on Jesus Christ, The Gospel, is a simple matter. There is NO NEED to try and turn the idea of FAITH on Jesus Christ into some SOCIALIST PHILOSOPHY as has been done in this Thread.

FAITH on Jesus Christ means believing The Gospel of Jesus Christ which is ONLY defined by God's written Word. Don't allow that to be replaced by any other thing, like man's SOCIALIST DOCTRINES.

 

[bro.tan]

Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.

Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. People you must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. And it’s strange that most people who consider themselves “once saved always saved” are the same ones that tell you that God’s commandments were nailed to the cross. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY.

(v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that once you are quote “saved” that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Like I said earlier that just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.

Also Paul says in Colossians 1: 23 if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So what happen if you do not continue in the faith, because you are not grounded and your hope of the gospel is not strong. A person might give up. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

 

[St. SteVen]

Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.

That is a popular misuse of scripture if you consider the context. (end times scenario)
Which also creates a terrible apologetic about salvation by works.

 

[bro.tan]

That is a popular misuse of scripture if you consider the context. (end times scenario)
Which also creates a terrible apologetic about salvation by works.

Paul said in (Gal. 6) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it? Brothers and sisters you must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.

In judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

 

[Gottservant]

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

Praise God for the mystery of our Salvation, right?

 

[soberxp]

Faith is not required to believe a certainty.

How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?

All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

]

We are saved by Jesus Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Faith is not required to believe a certainty.
How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?
All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.
Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

We are saved by Jesus Christ.

How?

 

[soberxp]

St. SteVen said:
Faith is not required to believe a certainty.
How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?
All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.
Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

We are saved by Jesus Christ.

How?

Because Jesus Christ is the good sheepherder for sheep(saint) and goats(believers and unbelievers).

 

[St. SteVen]

We are saved by Jesus Christ.

Because Jesus Christ is the good sheepherder for sheep(saint) and goats(believers and unbelievers).

"How?" not "Why?"

 

[soberxp]

"How?" not "Why?"

Hebrews 2:5
For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Here are the scripture passages mentioned above, listed in English (English Standard Version, ESV, unless otherwise noted for clarity).

---

**1. Psalm 2:9 (ESV)**
> "You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

---

**2. Revelation 2:26–27 (ESV)**
> "The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father."

---

**3. Revelation 12:5 (ESV)**
> "She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne."

---

**4. Revelation 19:15 (ESV)**
> "From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty."

---


- **Psalm 2:9 (KJV)** – “Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”
- **Revelation 2:26–27 (KJV)** – “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”
- **Revelation 12:5 (KJV)** – “And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
- **Revelation 19:15 (KJV)** – “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”


**Why does the Bible use an “iron rod” to represent authority? Is it because shepherds carried iron rods?**

The “iron rod” in the Bible (e.g., Psalm 2, Revelation 2:27, 12:5, 19:15) symbolizes **absolute power, righteous judgment, and unbreakable authority**. Its imagery is indeed related to a shepherd’s staff, but it goes much deeper. In ancient times, a shepherd’s rod was used to guide, protect, and defend the flock. However, the “iron rod” specifically represents the **Messiah’s kingly scepter** — a symbol of ruling the nations with justice and shattering all opposition. So, while it draws from the shepherd’s rod, its meaning is elevated to divine, unyielding authority and judgment.

 

[St. SteVen]

**Why does the Bible use an “iron rod” to represent authority? Is it because shepherds carried iron rods?**

Doubtful.

 

[soberxp]

Doubtful.

I don't know if you've noticed.A very strange thing.Even the people who wrote the Bible have a lot of hatred in their hearts.They want something to die out completely.But Even the angels Just say to Satan:"May the Lord rebuke you."

So do you prefer to believe in the attitude of the author of the Bible or do you prefer to believe it?The angel's attitude as reported in their mouths.

 

[soberxp]

Or angels can't sympathize with human feelings at all.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I found it helpful to understand "faith" as "trust" rather than "belief". Trust in a Person, rather than belief in, say, a theological construct.

How does "trust" interact with "certainty"?

From what I have read about faith it is a substance. That substance is hope and the evidence is the hope in things not seen. So without faith there is no substance made from the hope of things not yet seen. By faith I can be certain that God's promises are for anyone who receives them before they see them happen in their life. The Covenant Blessings are sealed to believers who have the faith (substance made from hope) to receive them.

 

[Lambano]

From what I have read about faith it is a substance. That substance is hope and the evidence is the hope in things not seen. So without faith there is no substance made from the hope of things not yet seen. By faith I can be certain that God's promises are for anyone who receives them before they see them happen in their life. The Covenant Blessings are sealed to believers who have the faith (substance made from hope) to receive them.

Does "substance" then imply that faith should result in concrete action?

 

[Lambano]

From what I have read about faith it is a substance.

The Greek word translated "substance" is "hypostasis", a word which should be familiar to anyone who knows the Nicene formulation of the Trinity: Three hypostases, one ousia. A hypostasis is a particular instantiation of a thing. So faith is the instantiation of the thing hoped for.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Does "substance" then imply that faith should result in concrete action?

Faith does require action. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[Davy]

Faith is not required to believe a certainty.

How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?

All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

]

If we ain't saved by our works, then ask yourself what's left?? And we ain't... saved by our works, but our good works do follow us to heaven.