Nonsense.
Without the cross, the death penalty for all of humankind wouldn't be paid in full.
Hell as the default for humankind?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Without the cross, the death penalty for all of humankind wouldn't be paid in full.
That's a very limited reading of the text.
The error is in your understanding, not scripture.
I see. Since it disagrees with what you believe,
it can't possibly mean what it plainly says?
What is wrong is that you don't seem to understand the nature of God--his holiness and justice--nor the nature of sin and just how sinful sin is.
Welcome to the forum.
Yes, I suppose sin is quite sinful. - LOL
You are providing the standard apologetic to whitewash what the church has taught us about God.
Somehow His "wrath" (unhinged fury) outweighs His mercy.
Was this God's perfect plan for humankind?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.
Your response shows that you don't understand the nature of sin and just how sinful sin is in comparison to God's holiness.
To say that 'His "wrath"' is 'unhinged fury,' is a strawman that shows you don't understand the nature of God. God is perfectly just, which means that he must punish all who have sinned and rebelled against him. His wrath is that punishment. You essentially want an unjust God, but that wouldn't be God at all; certainly not a good God.
Yet, God is also perfectly loving and merciful, so he provided a way to avoid his wrath. He took the wrath that we deserve upon himself in Christ, imputing Christ's righteousness to those who put their faith in him and his work on the cross.
Those who go to hell are those who refuse his free gift. They don't want to let Christ be Lord in this life, so they will reap that in eternity.
Yes. If you don't think it's a perfect plan or even a good one, what do you suggest would be?
No, not exactly. You have no idea what I believe, and no interest in finding out. That's not why you're here. You have a narrative, an agenda, and more than likely some pathological need to bring everyone over to your way of thinking. What you don't have, is the same merciful and loving Spirit that you claim would prevent God from damning certain souls to hell. Its a bit ironic.
St. SteVen said:
Was this God's perfect plan for humankind?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.
God's perfect plan for humankind?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- In the end each one is responsible for their actions.
- Judgement (evaluation) leads to restoration and redemption.
Was this God's perfect plan for humankind?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.
How about this?
God's perfect plan for humankind?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- In the end each one is responsible for their actions.
- Judgement (evaluation) leads to restoration and redemption.
No.
I want a God who is in the redemption business, not the punishment business.
Jesus taught us that loving our enemies is godly behavior.
What should He do with His own enemies?
First, your point "In the end each one is responsible for their actions" is precisely why people end up in hell. Second, where is the justice in your last point, that "Judgement (evaluation) leads to restoration and redemption."
You seem to want all mercy and love without justice, but that isn't loving. The free gift they have rejected is infinite love and mercy and grace; it is Christ himself. So, why should those who reject God and Christ in this life end up in heaven when that is never what they wanted? Is God now to force them or coerce them, which would be unjust and unloving?
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Do you really think that people are going to start loving God even more when he removes his grace completely from them, when they don't love him at all now and even prefer evil while his common grace is upon them?
He is in the redemption business; that is precisely what Jesus's death and resurrection accomplished. And, in the end, people will receive justice based on their actions.
Pour out his wrath, as he repeatedly states he will do. Do you think he should just "love them" and let them go unpunished? That isn't actually loving at all.
Here are some interesting quotes from Paul Washer that are worth pondering, all from The Gospel’s Power and Message:
"In the broad spectrum of the Scriptures, divine wrath refers to God’s holy displeasure and righteous indignation directed towards the sinner and his sin. In considering the wrath of God, it is important to understand that it is not an uncontrollable, irrational, or selfish emotion, but His wrath is the result of His holiness, righteousness, and love.
It is also a necessary element of His government. Because of who God is, He must react adversely to sin. God is holy. Therefore, evil repulses Him, and He breaks fellowship with the wicked. God is love and zealously loves all that is good. Such intense love for righteousness manifests itself in an equally intense hatred of all that is evil. Thus, the love of God does not negate the wrath of God; rather, it confirms or guarantees it. God is righteous. Therefore, He must judge wickedness and condemn it. If man is an object of God’s anger, it is because he has chosen to challenge God’s sovereignty, violate His holy will, and expose himself to judgment."
"However, in the Scriptures, the hatred of God is just as much a reality as His love. According to the Scriptures, there are things that a holy and loving God hates, abhors, detests, and even loathes. Furthermore, that hatred is oftentimes directed toward fallen men.
...
While the love of God is a reality that goes beyond comprehension, it is important to see that the love of God is the very reason for His hatred. We should not say that God is love and therefore He cannot hate, but rather, God is love and therefore He must hate.
...
In the same way, if God loves with the greatest intensity all that is upright and good, then He must with equal intensity hate all that is perverse and evil.
...
We must understand that it is impossible to separate the sin from the sinner. God does not punish sin, but He punishes the one who commits it. It is not sin that is condemned to hell but the man who practices it. For this reason, the psalmist declared: “The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.” (Psalm 5:5) And also, “The LORD is in His holy temple, the LORD’s throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men. The LORD tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals; fire and brimstone and a burning wind shall be the portion of their cup. For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness.” (Psalm 11:4-7)
"What does it mean when the Scriptures declare that God hates sinners? First, Webster’s Dictionary defines hate as a feeling of extreme enmity toward someone, to regard another with active hostility, or to have a strong aversion toward another: to detest, loathe, abhor, or abominate. Although these are hard words, Scripture uses most, if not all of these to describe God’s relationship to sin and the sinner. Secondly, we must understand that God’s hatred exists in perfect harmony with His other attributes. Unlike man, God’s hatred is holy, just, and a result of His love. Thirdly, we must understand that God’s hatred is not a denial of His love. Psalm 5:5 is not a denial of John 3:16 or Matthew 5:44–45. Although God’s wrath abides upon the sinner, although He is angry with the wicked every day, and although He hates all who do iniquity, His love is of such a nature that He is able to love those who are the very objects of His hatred and work on their behalf for their salvation."
What is justice except the human desire for revenge. (a sin)
Forgiveness is a virtue. Mercy is an acceptable form of justice.
It doesn't have to mean without accountability.
You should rethink these statements in light of what God himself says:
Deu 10:18 He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing
Deu 32:4 “The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Job 34:12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.
Psa 9:7 But the LORD sits enthroned forever; he has established his throne for justice,
Psa 33:5 He loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of the steadfast love of the LORD.
Psa 37:28 For the LORD loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psa 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne; steadfast love and faithfulness go before you.
Psa 97:2 Clouds and thick darkness are all around him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.
Etc. That is a very small sample of hundreds of verses that speak of justice. If justice is “the human desire for revenge. (a sin),” then you’re calling God a sinner and the very foundation of his throne sinful. You’re saying that he is much less than God and much closer to being human.
Clearly justice is a godly virtue. But mercy is not “an acceptable form of justice,” because it isn’t justice at all. Justice is about getting what one deserves, both for the perpetrators of injustice and its victims. You just want God to let things go, which is unloving and unjust for those on the receiving end of sin and evil.
Bob
Well-Known Member
Pardon: we are interrupting the dialog in progress for an aside—separate discussion of “What is Justice?”
Corrective justice: basically, redressing wrongs, making amends for damages.
Retributive justice: assigning the offender punitive damages proportional to the crime. As opposed to revenge, retribution is not personal, but is directed only at wrongdoing.
We agree personal revenge is forbidden by God, whereas retributive justice is reserved for tribes, communities, societies, . . . (see Matthew 18: 15-17; also 1 Corinthians 5).
So: can we say God carries out retributive justice on each of us upon death?
My understanding of the Evangelical belief is that God does Not grade on a curve: you either pass (Jesus as your savior) or you fail, utterly. (In contrast, the Jewish belief is that He does grade on a curve, with His own scales of justice.)
Strange, but you seem to be viewed as some sort of Christian Socrates, corrupting weak Christians with heretical ideas. If virtual hemlock were available, . . . .
Blessings.
How so? Again, you stated: "What is justice except the human desire for revenge. (a sin)". But that makes God a sinner because "he has established his throne for justice," "He loves righteousness and justice," and "righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne."
They contradict, and so refute, your position.
That might be your view, but that is not the biblical view.
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
2Th 1:5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
When either we die or Christ returns, we face judgement based on whether or not we have allowed Christ to be Lord, through repentance and faith in him and his atoning work. That determines where one ends up for eternity.
There are other definitions of justice, such as restorative justice, which seems to be what @St. SteVen is arguing for. One of the goals of which is to try and restore the offender to the community; that is not the biblical idea of justice. The biblical idea of justice is based on who God is--his holiness, righteousness, love, and equity. That means everyone who doesn't accept his free gift by faith, will spend eternity apart from him.
My use of the word justice there was in reference to the Christian definition of God's justice.
The Christian understanding is that we are not to take revenge because God is planning to do that.
Sinful for us but not for Him?
Countless billions have gone to the afterlife without having ever even heard of Christ.
They don't need a second chance, they need a first chance. And they will have it.
Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Christ as Lord.
So, the penalty for refusing a free gift (free = no strings attached) is to spend eternity apart from Him, which means burning in the lake of fire?
And this is a manifestation of God's holiness, righteousness, love, and equity?
What does one have to do to become a tyrant, if this is acceptable behavior?
