Water Baptism--Literal or Symbolic?

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Randy Kluth

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I agree.
Would you agree that a person should not be baptized until they understand what they're doing?
Yes, Water Baptism follows Salvation. One should understand that he has been Saved before undergoing the ritual that expresses this commitment publicly.
You'd have to explain more to be sure I don't misunderstand...
but I'm not sure a person has to understand the full gospel in order to be saved.
I certainly didn't when I had my salvation experience many years ago.
I learned AFTER salvation what the gospel was. Years later.
Humbly, I must admit I don't understand it all either. I was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church. I see this more as a commitment and dedication made by the parents than a technical "baptism," though. I certainly didn't know anything as an infant!

When I mentioned "Full Gospel" I was referring in the back of my mind to Full Gospel adherants who often indicate that many nominal Christians don't really know what their Faith fully entails experientially. One can believe in something without fully experiencing what that belief suggests.

One might, for example, believe he is an eagle, and yet not have a clue what it is like to soar through the heavens! ;)

But more seriously, my own upbringing was what I call "churchianity," where all I knew were the 10 Commandments and church once a week. I didn't know much about the Holy Spirit or about the role He plays in bringing Jesus' teachings to life in my own spirit.

The Full Gospel, in this sense, means to me that Jesus did not come to advocate for the ritual of Water Baptism, but rather, for a Spirit Baptism, which transforms us inwardly, spiritually, together with the freedom from the Law that his New Covenant brings.
I do believe that we get the Holy Spirit, in some way or other, at spiritual birth.
I've said that I don't fully understand.
The Pentecostals and Charismatics emphasize spiritual gifts to show evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life. But this is unnecessary and sometimes over the top. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but some of the teaching is sometimes a bit wayward, and we should tread cautiously in the biblical sense.

The main evidence of Spiritual Rebirth is 1) a sense of the Holy Spirit with and in us, 2) the recognition of an inclination towards wanting to be like Jesus in terms of righteousness, and 3) a sensitivity to the need to avoid things that we are inclined to do wrong, such as harboring hatred, jealousy, envy, etc.

Spiritual Gifts is simply recognizing our own particular traits, and then recognizing how God enhances our abilities through things like spiritual discernment, whether discerning our own abilities or discerning the needs of others. This is a supernatural enhancement, operating in conjunction with divine revelation.

But we can't make this happen. We may, however underappreciate the things in us that are actually very important to God--even if it is a matter of being congenial or kind.
It seems to me that at baptism the Holy Spirit actually come to live IN us....
He indwells the believer.
Unbelievers can have a consciousness of God, and even a limited relationship with Him. But when we promise ourselves to God in covenant, He chooses to endorse our commitment and confirm our commitment by choosing to have His Spirit live in us permanently, through thick and thin.

We should be aware of this, in particular when we are led to consciously turn away from various temptations and choose to do something good that may not always be so convenient. "God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him."
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who
once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
,
Peter is saying, quite explicitly, that cleansing water is not the purpose of Water Baptism. It is *symbolic* of an internal spiritual cleansing, which he called "an appeal to God for a good conscience."

Since the actual "appeal" takes place earlier, at the moment of commitment, it goes without saying that the act of Water Baptism is merely a confirmation of the original "appeal."

It is another subject entirely, but I will give you my thoughts on the "proclamation" that God's Spirit made in the days of Noah, since this is often very confusing. I think the Spirit proclaimed, through Noah, that judgment by water was coming to destroy sinful Mankind.

In the same way the Spirit comes within us, at Salvation, to convict us of the need to put off the ways of the flesh, ie life apart from God. And He convicts us to follow Jesus, which He impresses upon our conscience.

The evidence of the Spirit in our lives is primarily this conviction, this testimony or proclamation, this turning of our ways from ourselves to God. Instead of destroying us, though, as in the Flood, the Spirit comes into our lives to help us put to death our old ways of living independent of God.
Noah's family was brought safely through the waters in the ark.
Peter is speaking about being brought home safely.

He says that baptism/water now saves....
for a good conscsience before God...
not the removal of dirt from the body,,,
but it makes an appeal to God so we could appear before Him
with a good conscience.

It is NOT only a symbol.
Click to expand...
I disagree. If the waters of Baptism are not meant to be literal, then that is the normal way of determining symbolism. And we *know* that the waters of Baptism were not to be taken literally because Peter comes right out and says that!

But when He said that the waters of Baptism "save us" he is not talking about our paying the redemptive price for our Salvation, since only Christ could do that. So, Peter was speaking, as I said, by a literary figure that Baptism *indirectly* saves us, in the same way "walking down an aisle to the altar" saves us. It would not be the specific walk down to the altar that directly saves us, but it would *indirectly* save us by becoming the environment and circumstances in which we properly make confession and accept Christ's redemptive work on our behalf, choosing to repent of going our own way and choosing to live by Christ as our Way from henceforth.
Unless you could show how the above is incorrect....
I have to go by what Peter taught.
I'm trying!
 

ScottA

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Water Baptism--Literal or Symbolic?​

I see you are following up on a previous conversation, but addressing the Title question (above):

Let every Christian understand--nothing in this world is "literal".

As it is written, everything is "created" as an "image" of form--all this is revelation, not reality.
God is real, and has neither form nor existence like the things of this world. Even Christ who is "God with us", was a mere "image" by form, only for a time--that is, as we are inclined to see things. Is God then less than mankind or this world? No, heaven forbid--but more--but more in a way most cannot even imagine.

So...water baptism, is just another "image" revealing by form, that which has no form as we know it. It is the image of being washed clean of sin, whether by immersion or by word or the laying on of hands. But those are not that "one baptism" of Christ which the scriptures speak of. That "one baptism" is yes, only symbolized by water, symbolizing the Spirit which is unseen (in this world).

And this is also the case with many things that are written.
 
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Randy Kluth

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I see you are following up on a previous conversation, but addressing the Title question (above):

Let every Christian understand--nothing in this world is "literal".

As it is written, everything is "created" as an "image" of form--all this is revelation, not reality.
God is real, and has neither form nor existence like the things of this world. Even Christ who is "God with us", was a mere "image" by form, only for a time--that is, as we are inclined to see things. Is God then less than mankind or this world? No, heaven forbid--but more--but more in a way most cannot even imagine.

So...water baptism, is just another "image" revealing by form, that which has no form as we know it. It is the image of being washed clean of sin, whether by immersion or by word or the laying on of hands. But those is not that "one baptism" of Christ which the scriptures speak of. That "one baptism" is yes, only symbolized by water, symbolizing the Spirit which is unseen (in this world).

And this is also the case with many things that are written.
Thanks Scott. What you're saying is a bit "heady," but inasmuch as it relates to the subject I think you're right.

I think a number of scholastic Christians from the past viewed the things of this world as "analogies" of the infinite God, since the infinite God can only represent God in a "lower" way than as He is in His infinite Being. Perhaps this is what you're saying?

On the other hand, we can say that when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us the Son was truly God Incarnate and not just an "analogy" of God. Jesus said the Father was "greater" than himself as Son for a reason--not to deny his Deity, but rather, to point out the distance between the infinite and the finite world.

Thanks again, but correct me if I have you wrong?
 

ScottA

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Thanks Scott. What you're saying is a bit "heady," but inasmuch as it relates to the subject I think you're right.

I think a number of scholastic Christians from the past viewed the things of this world as "analogies" of the infinite God, since the infinite God can only represent God in a "lower" way than as He is in His infinite Being. Perhaps this is what you're saying?

On the other hand, we can say that when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us the Son was truly God Incarnate and not just an "analogy" of God. Jesus said the Father was "greater" than himself as Son for a reason--not to deny his Deity, but rather, to point out the distance between the infinite and the finite world.

Thanks again, but correct me if I have you wrong?
Yes, that is what I am saying.

As for "God incarnate", what is incarnate but a word to describe what we consider "real" rather than defining Jesus the man as "image" and God as spirit, as the scriptures say?

But as "analogies" go (which is a rather good way to look at it), consider that in addition to "image" God has also defined Christ as the "Word"...which if you consider it, has no form as a man has form. By that greater definition (from God), has He not as much as said, He has merely written Jesus into the story? Is He not the Word (something of no form) made manifest? Could it be that simple? Yes--of course!

"Heady" for sure--for He is the Head.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Yes, that is what I am saying.

As for "God incarnate", what is incarnate but a word to describe what we consider "real" rather than defining Jesus the man as "image" and God as spirit, as the scriptures say?

But as "analogies" go (which is a rather good way to look at it), consider that in addition to "image" God has also defined Christ as the "Word"...which if you consider it, has no form as a man has form. By that greater definition (from God), has He not as much as said, He has merely written Jesus into the story? Is He not the Word (something of no form) made manifest? Could it be that simple? Yes--of course!

"Heady" for sure--for He is the Head.
Yes, I think the great mystery is that something infinite can express itself in a lesser form and still be that infinite Person. This discussion has given rise to a lot of Trinitarian discussion. But I won't go there now. ;)
 
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ScottA

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Yes, I think the great mystery is that something infinite can express itself in a lesser form and still be that infinite Person. This discussion has given rise to a lot of Trinitarian discussion. But I won't go there now.
Hallelujah!

No more shall it be said that "light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it!"
 

bro.tan

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"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." (Luke 7:29-30).

People, if you are in a position to be baptized in the name of Jesus, why reject the counsel of God? Rejecting God's counsel will get you eternal life in the burning flames (lake of fire) with the scribes and Pharisees.

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, Ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5: 20).
 

Randy Kluth

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"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." (Luke 7:29-30).

People, if you are in a position to be baptized in the name of Jesus, why reject the counsel of God? Rejecting God's counsel will get you eternal life in the burning flames (lake of fire) with the scribes and Pharisees.

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, Ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5: 20).
Luke 7.29 (All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

The ministry of John the Baptist was to Israel, to call them to repentance. The Pharisees and experts in the Law rejected John's call to repentance, continuing in their religious zealotry and legalism without offering their hearts, in worship, to God. They retained hostility that resulted in their calling for the death of Messiah.

This was not a rejection of a *baptismal formula,* but rather, rejection of God's prophetic voice to them. It was a rejection of the call to repent, and an insistence on going their own way. They may well have accepted various baptismal rites--they just rejected John's prophetic voice as it applied to them.

We do not have John the Baptist's ministry today--it is now the NT era. Neither does Jesus command all of his followers to be water baptized--his primary call was to a "Spirit Baptism," which is an inward conversion. He did command his Apostles to go out into all the world to convert, teach, and baptize.

Beyond that there is little emphasis on water baptism as a sacrament--the church picked that up. And it is okay with me.
 

bro.tan

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Luke 7.29 (All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus’ words, acknowledged that God’s way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30 But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

The ministry of John the Baptist was to Israel, to call them to repentance. The Pharisees and experts in the Law rejected John's call to repentance, continuing in their religious zealotry and legalism without offering their hearts, in worship, to God. They retained hostility that resulted in their calling for the death of Messiah.

This was not a rejection of a *baptismal formula,* but rather, rejection of God's prophetic voice to them. It was a rejection of the call to repent, and an insistence on going their own way. They may well have accepted various baptismal rites--they just rejected John's prophetic voice as it applied to them.

We do not have John the Baptist's ministry today--it is now the NT era. Neither does Jesus command all of his followers to be water baptized--his primary call was to a "Spirit Baptism," which is an inward conversion. He did command his Apostles to go out into all the world to convert, teach, and baptize.

Beyond that there is little emphasis on water baptism as a sacrament--the church picked that up. And it is okay with me.
Lets take a look in Act 8:35-39 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
 
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Lets take a look in Act 8:35-39 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
how did the eunuch know about baptism if the apostles taught faith alone?

thks
 
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Yes, Water Baptism follows Salvation. One should understand that he has been Saved before undergoing the ritual that expresses this commitment publicly.

Humbly, I must admit I don't understand it all either. I was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church. I see this more as a commitment and dedication made by the parents than a technical "baptism," though. I certainly didn't know anything as an infant!

When I mentioned "Full Gospel" I was referring in the back of my mind to Full Gospel adherants who often indicate that many nominal Christians don't really know what their Faith fully entails experientially. One can believe in something without fully experiencing what that belief suggests.

One might, for example, believe he is an eagle, and yet not have a clue what it is like to soar through the heavens! ;)

But more seriously, my own upbringing was what I call "churchianity," where all I knew were the 10 Commandments and church once a week. I didn't know much about the Holy Spirit or about the role He plays in bringing Jesus' teachings to life in my own spirit.

The Full Gospel, in this sense, means to me that Jesus did not come to advocate for the ritual of Water Baptism, but rather, for a Spirit Baptism, which transforms us inwardly, spiritually, together with the freedom from the Law that his New Covenant brings.

The Pentecostals and Charismatics emphasize spiritual gifts to show evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life. But this is unnecessary and sometimes over the top. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but some of the teaching is sometimes a bit wayward, and we should tread cautiously in the biblical sense.

The main evidence of Spiritual Rebirth is 1) a sense of the Holy Spirit with and in us, 2) the recognition of an inclination towards wanting to be like Jesus in terms of righteousness, and 3) a sensitivity to the need to avoid things that we are inclined to do wrong, such as harboring hatred, jealousy, envy, etc.

Spiritual Gifts is simply recognizing our own particular traits, and then recognizing how God enhances our abilities through things like spiritual discernment, whether discerning our own abilities or discerning the needs of others. This is a supernatural enhancement, operating in conjunction with divine revelation.

But we can't make this happen. We may, however underappreciate the things in us that are actually very important to God--even if it is a matter of being congenial or kind.

Unbelievers can have a consciousness of God, and even a limited relationship with Him. But when we promise ourselves to God in covenant, He chooses to endorse our commitment and confirm our commitment by choosing to have His Spirit live in us permanently, through thick and thin.

We should be aware of this, in particular when we are led to consciously turn away from various temptations and choose to do something good that may not always be so convenient. "God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him."

Peter is saying, quite explicitly, that cleansing water is not the purpose of Water Baptism. It is *symbolic* of an internal spiritual cleansing, which he called "an appeal to God for a good conscience."

Since the actual "appeal" takes place earlier, at the moment of commitment, it goes without saying that the act of Water Baptism is merely a confirmation of the original "appeal."

It is another subject entirely, but I will give you my thoughts on the "proclamation" that God's Spirit made in the days of Noah, since this is often very confusing. I think the Spirit proclaimed, through Noah, that judgment by water was coming to destroy sinful Mankind.

In the same way the Spirit comes within us, at Salvation, to convict us of the need to put off the ways of the flesh, ie life apart from God. And He convicts us to follow Jesus, which He impresses upon our conscience.

The evidence of the Spirit in our lives is primarily this conviction, this testimony or proclamation, this turning of our ways from ourselves to God. Instead of destroying us, though, as in the Flood, the Spirit comes into our lives to help us put to death our old ways of living independent of God.

I disagree. If the waters of Baptism are not meant to be literal, then that is the normal way of determining symbolism. And we *know* that the waters of Baptism were not to be taken literally because Peter comes right out and says that!

But when He said that the waters of Baptism "save us" he is not talking about our paying the redemptive price for our Salvation, since only Christ could do that. So, Peter was speaking, as I said, by a literary figure that Baptism *indirectly* saves us, in the same way "walking down an aisle to the altar" saves us. It would not be the specific walk down to the altar that directly saves us, but it would *indirectly* save us by becoming the environment and circumstances in which we properly make confession and accept Christ's redemptive work on our behalf, choosing to repent of going our own way and choosing to live by Christ as our Way from henceforth.

I'm trying!
how can you speak of salvation?

how do we have salvation here and now?

((endure to the end shall be saved))

mk 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

mt 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

mt 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

heb 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

heb 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

thanks