Yes, Water Baptism follows Salvation. One should understand that he has been Saved before undergoing the ritual that expresses this commitment publicly.I agree.
Would you agree that a person should not be baptized until they understand what they're doing?
Humbly, I must admit I don't understand it all either. I was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church. I see this more as a commitment and dedication made by the parents than a technical "baptism," though. I certainly didn't know anything as an infant!You'd have to explain more to be sure I don't misunderstand...
but I'm not sure a person has to understand the full gospel in order to be saved.
I certainly didn't when I had my salvation experience many years ago.
I learned AFTER salvation what the gospel was. Years later.
When I mentioned "Full Gospel" I was referring in the back of my mind to Full Gospel adherants who often indicate that many nominal Christians don't really know what their Faith fully entails experientially. One can believe in something without fully experiencing what that belief suggests.
One might, for example, believe he is an eagle, and yet not have a clue what it is like to soar through the heavens! ;)
But more seriously, my own upbringing was what I call "churchianity," where all I knew were the 10 Commandments and church once a week. I didn't know much about the Holy Spirit or about the role He plays in bringing Jesus' teachings to life in my own spirit.
The Full Gospel, in this sense, means to me that Jesus did not come to advocate for the ritual of Water Baptism, but rather, for a Spirit Baptism, which transforms us inwardly, spiritually, together with the freedom from the Law that his New Covenant brings.
The Pentecostals and Charismatics emphasize spiritual gifts to show evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life. But this is unnecessary and sometimes over the top. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but some of the teaching is sometimes a bit wayward, and we should tread cautiously in the biblical sense.I do believe that we get the Holy Spirit, in some way or other, at spiritual birth.
I've said that I don't fully understand.
The main evidence of Spiritual Rebirth is 1) a sense of the Holy Spirit with and in us, 2) the recognition of an inclination towards wanting to be like Jesus in terms of righteousness, and 3) a sensitivity to the need to avoid things that we are inclined to do wrong, such as harboring hatred, jealousy, envy, etc.
Spiritual Gifts is simply recognizing our own particular traits, and then recognizing how God enhances our abilities through things like spiritual discernment, whether discerning our own abilities or discerning the needs of others. This is a supernatural enhancement, operating in conjunction with divine revelation.
But we can't make this happen. We may, however underappreciate the things in us that are actually very important to God--even if it is a matter of being congenial or kind.
Unbelievers can have a consciousness of God, and even a limited relationship with Him. But when we promise ourselves to God in covenant, He chooses to endorse our commitment and confirm our commitment by choosing to have His Spirit live in us permanently, through thick and thin.It seems to me that at baptism the Holy Spirit actually come to live IN us....
He indwells the believer.
We should be aware of this, in particular when we are led to consciously turn away from various temptations and choose to do something good that may not always be so convenient. "God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him."
Peter is saying, quite explicitly, that cleansing water is not the purpose of Water Baptism. It is *symbolic* of an internal spiritual cleansing, which he called "an appeal to God for a good conscience."1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Since the actual "appeal" takes place earlier, at the moment of commitment, it goes without saying that the act of Water Baptism is merely a confirmation of the original "appeal."
It is another subject entirely, but I will give you my thoughts on the "proclamation" that God's Spirit made in the days of Noah, since this is often very confusing. I think the Spirit proclaimed, through Noah, that judgment by water was coming to destroy sinful Mankind.
In the same way the Spirit comes within us, at Salvation, to convict us of the need to put off the ways of the flesh, ie life apart from God. And He convicts us to follow Jesus, which He impresses upon our conscience.
The evidence of the Spirit in our lives is primarily this conviction, this testimony or proclamation, this turning of our ways from ourselves to God. Instead of destroying us, though, as in the Flood, the Spirit comes into our lives to help us put to death our old ways of living independent of God.
I disagree. If the waters of Baptism are not meant to be literal, then that is the normal way of determining symbolism. And we *know* that the waters of Baptism were not to be taken literally because Peter comes right out and says that!Noah's family was brought safely through the waters in the ark.
Peter is speaking about being brought home safely.
He says that baptism/water now saves....
for a good conscsience before God...
not the removal of dirt from the body,,,
but it makes an appeal to God so we could appear before Him
with a good conscience.
It is NOT only a symbol.
Click to expand...
But when He said that the waters of Baptism "save us" he is not talking about our paying the redemptive price for our Salvation, since only Christ could do that. So, Peter was speaking, as I said, by a literary figure that Baptism *indirectly* saves us, in the same way "walking down an aisle to the altar" saves us. It would not be the specific walk down to the altar that directly saves us, but it would *indirectly* save us by becoming the environment and circumstances in which we properly make confession and accept Christ's redemptive work on our behalf, choosing to repent of going our own way and choosing to live by Christ as our Way from henceforth.
I'm trying!Unless you could show how the above is incorrect....
I have to go by what Peter taught.