The Current War against Iran and Support for Israel is based on Catholic Counter Reformation Theology.

[dad]

But for Israel of the flesh, you only want to claim that part of God's promise for life, while ignoring the rest of His promise is death for Israel in unbelief!

When the remnant believe they are no longer Israel of the flesh.

 

[dad]

Israel of the flesh lost the land of promise, not because God reneged on His promise, but because Israel reneged, turning against God, serving other gods.

Lost it until God deals with them and brings the remnant to belief. Then they gain it all.

Now in your confusion you argue God will give Israel another chance, while the rest of the nations of the world who remain in unbelief, as Israel does, are condemned? When did God become a respecter of persons?

No. He only restores them after they get saved. That is not another chance for unbelieving rebels. They all die unless they repent.

 

[covenantee]

What qualifies as better. Both! (or just one)?

Hebrews 11:16 describes heaven as a better country.

What Scripture describes the land as a better country?

 

[dad]

Hebrews 11:16 describes heaven as a better country.

Of course it is. Nevertheless Jesus is coming to earth to rule and nations will be here. How is He wrong in restoring the believers who are Jews to the promised land!?

All this, and heaven too!

 

[covenantee]

Of course it is. Nevertheless Jesus is coming to earth to rule and nations will be here. How is He wrong in restoring the believers who are Jews to the promised land!?

All this, and heaven too!

What Scripture describes the land as a better country?

 

[dad]

What Scripture describes the land as a better country?

Heaven is a better country than earth. Yet God is coming back here. And He is restoring believing Jews here as well.

 

[covenantee]

Heaven is a better country than earth.

Glad you agree.

 

[dad]

Glad you agree.

Of course. That is my home. Apparently we also will be spending some time on earth in the millennium to help rule the world.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Heaven is a better country than earth. Yet God is coming back here. And He is restoring believing Jews here as well.

God will not return to dwell permanently on this present sin-cursed earth as it exists today. Scripture teaches that when Christ returns for His people, believers will meet Him in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 teaches that the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then believers who are alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and from that moment we will always be with Him.

The Bible also explains that the current heavens and earth will not continue forever. They will be replaced by an entirely new creation.

2 Peter 3:10–13 says the heavens will pass away and the earth and its works will be burned up. Believers are therefore looking for a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness dwells.


Revelation 21:1 also confirms this when John says he saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

Because of this, the ultimate promise for God’s people is not a temporary piece of earthly land in this present world, but the New Heaven and the New Earth prepared by God.

Hebrews 11:13–16 explains that even the patriarchs understood this. They considered themselves strangers and pilgrims on the earth and were seeking a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Not heavenly one "AND" earthly land in the Middle East as you think!

You need to remember that the promise of salvation is therefore not based on nationality or ethnicity, but on faith in Christ, anywhere on Earth, Jews and Gentiles. As it is written:


Galatians 3:28–29 teaches that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, for all believers are one in Christ Jesus. Those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

For this reason, God’s plan of salvation is through Christ for all who believe, not through the restoration of a particular ethnic nation to a specific land.

Selah!

 

[dad]

God will not return to dwell permanently on this present sin-cursed earth as it exists today. Scripture teaches that when Christ returns for His people, believers will meet Him in the air.

And then, later He returns with us to the planet. Feet landing on the Mt of Olives.

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 teaches that the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then believers who are alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and from that moment we will always be with Him.

With Him also when He returns TO earth of course.

The Bible also explains that the current heavens and earth will not continue forever. They will be replaced by an entirely new creation.

After the 1000 years are over.

2 Peter 3:10–13 says the heavens will pass away and the earth and its works will be burned up. Believers are therefore looking for a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness dwells.


Revelation 21:1 also confirms this when John says he saw a new heaven and a new earth, because the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

That is specified as after the 1000 years.

Because of this, the ultimate promise for God’s people is not a temporary piece of earthly land in this present world, but the New Heaven and the New Earth prepared by God.

His purpose for the return and rule and 1000 years is precisely to come to earth and rule, restore saved Israel etc

Hebrews 11:13–16 explains that even the patriarchs understood this. They considered themselves strangers and pilgrims on the earth and were seeking a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Not heavenly one "AND" earthly land in the Middle East as you think!

With Jesus there in the Millennium it will be pretty heavenly. But we ALSO have New Jerusalem to live in. If angels can cross the universe before Daniel finished praying, did you imagine we could not commute??

You need to remember that the promise of salvation is therefore not based on nationality or ethnicity, but on faith in Christ, anywhere on Earth, Jews and Gentiles. As it is written:

Of course not. However the promise of land to saved Jews isn't going away. They do not get restored because they are Jews. But because they are saved Jews.

Galatians 3:28–29 teaches that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, for all believers are one in Christ Jesus. Those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

In Christ we are all one. That does not mean identical rewards of course. We will be one with the saved remnant, but they will get that land! Ha. The thing is, we also will be ruling from Jerusalem with Jesus, so we will be spending time there also. One big happy family

For this reason, God’s plan of salvation is through Christ for all who believe, not through the restoration of a particular ethnic nation to a specific land.

Selah!

Yes and when the remnant believe they are IN!

 

[grafted branch]

To Israel believers He promised lands and restoration. Salvation too! It is not one or the other. His promises are like icing on the cake of salvation.

Would you encourage believers to become Israel believers so they can receive the promises made to Israel? Are you planning on becoming a Jew yourself so you can get the icing on the cake of salvation?

 

[dad]

Would you encourage believers to become Israel believers so they can receive the promises made to Israel?

You kidding!? I have no big wish for dirt in the mid east. But I see no reason why Christians could not live there if they desired (as well as their home in New Jerusalem)

 

[grafted branch]

You kidding!? I have no big wish for dirt in the mid east. But I see no reason why Christians could not live there if they desired (as well as their home in New Jerusalem)

The only promises made to Israel isn’t just the dirt, is it? What about being ruled with a rod of iron, Israel isn’t going to be ruled with the rod of iron, it’s the Gentile nations. Wouldn’t it be beneficial to escape the rod of iron by converting to be a Jew right now?

 

[dad]

The only promises made to Israel isn’t just the dirt, is it? What about being ruled with a rod of iron, Israel isn’t going to be ruled with the rod of iron, it’s the Gentile nations. Wouldn’t it be beneficial to escape the rod of iron by converting to be a Jew right now?

After they are believers, they will have all rights His children have. Why would I want to be part of Israel? The rod of iron thingie is about ruling nations on earth during the 1000 years. Nothing to do with us being ruled that way as believers. We do the ruling with Jesus! That includes the saved remnant. (they are co rulers with us and Jesus)

 

[grafted branch]

After they are believers, they will have all rights His children have. Why would I want to be part of Israel? The rod of iron thingie is about ruling nations on earth during the 1000 years. Nothing to do with us being ruled that way as believers. We do the ruling with Jesus! That includes the saved remnant. (they are co rulers with us and Jesus)

What about the promises made in Jeremiah 31:35-36?

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.



The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is given in Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

In the new heaven new earth the Genesis 1:14 ordinances are not being obeyed by the sun and moon, as seen in Isaiah 60:20.

Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

What this apparently means is that at some point Israel ceases to be a nation forever. There really can’t be any eternal promises made to the nation of Israel when it ceases once new heaven new earth come, right?

If you agree, then Ezekiel 37:25-26 gives us an eternal promise about being in the promised land, which doesn’t make sense when the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise gets fulfilled.



Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

 

[PinSeeker]

So God drew specific boundaries for nothing? He really meant the whole world? He later specified He would gather from all the world to those specific boundaries the saved Israel. Once again God was way off and wrong?

Your idea of Israel, dad, who Israel is, who makes up God's Israel is far, far too small. You will be offended at that, but that's not my intention at all. There is no Jew or Gentile; we are all one in Christ Jesus.

No. It was an exact boundary and territory on earth.

Lesser Israel, yes. But greater Israel, God's true Israel, His household, knows no boundaries.

The promise of land is not to us.

It is. You said it, I think... all God's promises have their yes and amen in Christ.

The holy land is something promised to saved Israel.

When Jesus comes back, and after the final Judgment, this world... all of creation... will no longer be fallen, but restored, and... it's really kind of hard to fathom, because the fallen world is all we know right now... but yes, restored to its unfallen state, and we... and all of creation, will be made holy. God will have then made all things new. just as He said in Revelation 21:5.

For us, He made a city in heaven. That is our promised home.

Speaking of Revelation 21, verses 1-4 tell us that the holy city, new Jerusalem, will come down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. That's verse 2, dad. Heaven comes down to us. And, continuing on, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with us, and we will be His people, and God Himself will be with us as our God. He will wipe away every tear from our eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things will have passed away. So, we will not leave this planet; it will be our permanent dwelling place... with God Himself. And again... just as Jesus said... we, the meek, will inherit the earth, co-heirs with Christ. Read Revelation 21 again; I'm sure you have many times. We ~ we ~ are the city, the City of God, and... its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. As Augustine wrote in his great work, The City of God (which was written early in the fifth century, around 410 A.D.), this “city” is not a physical place, but rather a spiritual community., and includes the righteous of all ages (before and after Christ).

Says who? You made that up.

No, I didn't make anything up, dad. <chuckles>

God never said His precise boundaries were anything but what He said. Jesus and the apostles never said so either.

The children of Abraham, the saved nation of Israel is a specific group. With special promises. Not every nation, every tribe on earth. Them specifically. God is bring them back from all over the planet to that promised land after they are saved. He is not bring me. Not Japanese brethren, etc etc.

Yes, they learn the hard way. Even the trials and purgings help get it across to them. Whatever it takes.

Let's review the verses that made you think that Look at this one.

Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; ​

​

Notice the Jacob? That is referring to a certain people ​

Well, yes, but your idea of Jacob ~ Israel ~ is far, far too small. In Romans 2:28-29, Paul specifically defines who those "certain people" really are, who the Jews of God really are: "...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." And then in Romans 9, Paul talks about God "mak(ing) known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles..."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[dad]

What about the promises made in Jeremiah 31:35-36?

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

In other words, though they be dispersed and etc, God still will see that they will be a nation. The way He does that is a remnant being saved in the end. Then presto, in a day a nation is born, then restored.

The ordinances of the sun, moon, and stars is given in Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

In the new heaven new earth the Genesis 1:14 ordinances are not being obeyed by the sun and moon, as seen in Isaiah 60:20.

Says who? There will be no need of the sun, but who says it will not still be there?

Isaiah 60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

What this apparently means is that at some point Israel ceases to be a nation forever. There really can’t be any eternal promises made to the nation of Israel when it ceases once new heaven new earth come, right?

The verse you cited doesn't seem to be saying Israel will vanish to me. That is a passage about the 1000 years and how God will be their light etc.

If you agree, then Ezekiel 37:25-26 gives us an eternal promise about being in the promised land, which doesn’t make sense when the Jeremiah 31:35-36 promise gets fulfilled.

As mentioned above, there is no discrepancy

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

So this seems to be saying they will dwell there forever. If so, then that would mean the new earth includes the promised lands also.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And then, later He returns with us to the planet. Feet landing on the Mt of Olives.

With Him also when He returns TO earth of course.

After the 1000 years are over.

That is specified as after the 1000 years.

His purpose for the return and rule and 1000 years is precisely to come to earth and rule, restore saved Israel etc

With Jesus there in the Millennium it will be pretty heavenly. But we ALSO have New Jerusalem to live in. If angels can cross the universe before Daniel finished praying, did you imagine we could not commute??

Of course not. However the promise of land to saved Jews isn't going away. They do not get restored because they are Jews. But because they are saved Jews.

In Christ we are all one. That does not mean identical rewards of course. We will be one with the saved remnant, but they will get that land! Ha. The thing is, we also will be ruling from Jerusalem with Jesus, so we will be spending time there also. One big happy family

Yes and when the remnant believe they are IN!

Your entire explanation is speculative and not clearly supported by Scripture.

The Bible teaches that when Christ returns, the saints are gathered to meet Him in the air, not that we continue down to establish a kingdom on this present sin-cursed earth. The gathering is described as believers being caught up to meet the Lord, which shows a removal from the earth rather than a descent to rule on it.

After the final judgment, Scripture teaches that the present heaven and earth pass away and are replaced with the New Heaven and New Earth. That means the current world order—including the present political land boundaries of Israel—does not continue. So you believe that God promised the “saved Jews” a specific piece of land. However, that idea comes from dispensational premillennial doctrine, which teaches a supposed 1,000-year earthly kingdom. This view misinterprets Scripture, particularly the passage about Christ’s feet standing on the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14. The text is being taken literally in a way that ignores the broader biblical teaching about the New Heaven and New Earth rather than a restored earthly kingdom tied to a specific land.

The promise of the inheritance is not a small strip of land in the Middle East. The promise becomes the entire New Creation. In Christ there is no separate earthly land promise for one ethnic group, because all believers are one in Christ and share the same inheritance.

So the idea that saved Jews will receive a specific piece of land called Israel during a thousand-year earthly kingdom is an interpretation built on speculation, not a clear teaching of Scripture. The final promise is not an earthly geopolitical kingdom but the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem, where all the redeemed dwell with God forever.

 

[dad]

Your entire explanation is speculative and not clearly supported by Scripture.

Such as?

The Bible teaches that when Christ returns, the saints are gathered to meet Him in the air,

It also teaches His feet will land on a mountain here. That tells us it is two events. One in the asir where we go up. The other from the air when we come down

not that we continue down to establish a kingdom on this present sin-cursed earth.

He establishes His kingdom here. 'Thy kingdom come -- on earth as it is in heaven'

The gathering is described as believers being caught up to meet the Lord, which shows a removal from the earth rather than a descent to rule on it.

Correct. That is the event where we go up.

After the final judgment, Scripture teaches that the present heaven and earth pass away and are replaced with the New Heaven and New Earth.

It also says that is after the 1000 years

That means the current world order—including the present political land boundaries of Israel—does not continue.

Right, the promised land is a lot bigger than current boundaries of secular Isrrael

So you believe that God promised the “saved Jews” a specific piece of land.

Correct. The promised land.

However, that idea comes from dispensational premillennial doctrine, which teaches a supposed 1,000-year earthly kingdom.

No it comes from Scripture. The boundaries are given. The time when the remnant are saved and restored is given etc

This view misinterprets Scripture, particularly the passage about Christ’s feet standing on the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14. The text is being taken literally in a way that ignores the broader biblical teaching about the New Heaven and New Earth rather than a restored earthly kingdom tied to a specific land.

No it is not. It all happens. The new earth is 1000 plus years after Jesus returns to the earth

The promise of the inheritance is not a small strip of land in the Middle East.

It is precisely promised actually, for the remnant.

The promise becomes the entire New Creation. In Christ there is no separate earthly land promise for one ethnic group, because all believers are one in Christ and share the same inheritance.

No. The new earth is long after He returns to earth.

So the idea that saved Jews will receive a specific piece of land called Israel during a thousand-year earthly kingdom is an interpretation built on speculation,

No it is purest bible prophesy. Specific. Detailed.

not a clear teaching of Scripture. The final promise is not an earthly geopolitical kingdom but the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem, where all the redeemed dwell with God forever.

Crystal clear. The new earth is after the 1000 years. No possible doubt it is stated explicitly

 

[grafted branch]

Says who? There will be no need of the sun, but who says it will not still be there?

Are you suggesting that in Genesis 1:14, this “And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven” is an ordinance but this “to divide the day from the night and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years” is not an ordinance?

Ordinance <2706> choq Statute, decree, ordinance, law, regulation