The Current War against Iran and Support for Israel is based on Catholic Counter Reformation Theology.

[Spiritual Israelite]

<SIGH>

Exactly my response to all the times when you repeatedly insisted that Judas was saved. You can be every bit as frustrating to deal with as you think I am. Believe me.

Right. See above. <smile>

Is it too much to ask for you to exegete Romans 7:9-11 for me? It doesn't seem like you really want to deal with that Paul wrote there.

That's exactly what I say to you, SI. Although I don't mean it in the mean-spiritedness you do.

I am not intending to be mean-spirited. I just expect better of you, so I'm annoyed that you don't know better than to fall for the false teaching of Calvinism. It's disappointing and irritating to witness.

Oh, my.

Seriously? That's your response to my saying that "Dead is dead" is a non-answer? Are you somehow not aware that there are multiple definitions of the word "dead"? With that being the case, saying "dead is dead" is just silly. What does that mean? Are you not willing to be clear about anything? You think being vague by saying things like "dead is dead" is a convincing argument?

I mean I could say a lot more, but will repeat what I've said before, very simply, to your simple question: It means not being able to bring oneself ~ even though he or she is capable of it, woodenly speaking; he or she has willingly exchanged the truth for a lie, as Paul says in Romans 1 ~ and for that reason not able to bring oneself to repentance and belief. And summed up by Jesus in His very simple statement to Nicodemus, that "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Ugh. So much for a simple answer to a simple question. You're all over the place here. You say being dead in sins "means not being able to bring oneself ~ even though he or she is capable of it, woodenly speaking". What does that even mean? Not able to bring oneself to repentance and belief, but capable of it? This is complete nonsense. How do you expect me to take this seriously? I can't do it.

No, that is not what dead in sins means. Being dead in sins means that someone is separated from God because of their sin. Death is separation. Physical death results in the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. Eternal death (the second death) results in eternal separation from God (2 Thess 1:9). Jesus said that sinners are sick. If sinners were dead in the way you think they are then they could not also be sick because to be spiritually sick does not make someone unable to bring oneself to repentance and belief in the Great Physician (Jesus) any more than being physically sick makes someone unable to acknowledg they are sick and that they can't heal themselves while seeking healing from a physician.

Sure. But if they are dead in their sin, they will not. Yes, they could. Yes, they are capable. But they will not. They have (willingly) exchanged the truth for a lie.


Sure. But they may still ~ continue to ~ regard it as foolishness.


Are you now suggesting that when they hear they can do no other than to... uh, call on the physician? Hey, James tells us not to be hearers only but doers of the Word. Why would he say this, I wonder? <smile>


They do. And we all would, if not for this new heart, this new spirit that we've been given. <smile> But for the grace of God, there go I...

Okay, that's enough. <chuckles>

Grace and peace.

 

[PinSeeker]

......

Not even reading any more, here SI. No disrespect intended. No need to keep going through... or at least trying to... the same things over and over and over again. And to endure... <sigh> ...the disrespect, and anger, and mean-spiritedness, and bitterness, which are all totally uncalled for, and wrongheaded... "stuff" ... <smile> ...coming from you time and time again. So, I'm out. I really, really hope you're a nicer, calmer, more level-headed, conversational person in person, especially in Christian circles. Grace and peace to you.

 

[dad]

It does... if, dad, if, you mean 'pedigree' not in the sense of ethnicity, but rather through the promise, through the child of the promise, Isaac.

The point being we are saved by our choice in coming to Jesus, not who our parents are

Well yeah, me too. Israel is not everyone... and not even all those who are ethnically Jewish. Is this not what I have said? It is...

In the normal sense, Israel is a certain people. It was always really only the believers. When the Messiah came, it became, of course about belief in Him

No, the lesser pointed to... foreshadowed... the greater. In the same sense as all the elements of the law, like concerning murder and adultery, are really far greater than just the lesser thing, which is what Jesus said in all his "but I tell you" statements in the Sermon on the Mount.

The land promised was actually real. Specific borders and cities. It was not a 'lesson' we learned from, such as the disobedience of the freed slaves from Egypt etc etc. reality can be our friend if we let it.

Right, we are that city, the City of God, and we will inhabit the whole earth, which will be without sin... completely made new by God.

So when Jesus went to prepare a place for us in heaven, you think He really meany that He was up there tinkering with saints? Not a real place? No real city with the precise dimensions He laid out?
When we see Paul talking about it, should we wave it away as fiction?

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly

Are we to think that the angels are not really angels as well? That God is not really living? That joyful 'really' means sad? That heaven really means the moon?

This is, dad, an absolute contradiction. Yes, everything about salvation depends on God, and not what we do, just as you said. But in the second sentence, you totally refute what you literally just said., which is really that salvation depends solely on our decision, that God gives us salvation based solely on our decision, which is a work, to come to him.

Rather than contradict God when He says that we need to believe in Jesus and receive Him, we should accept it. The belief is not what saves us, it is Jesus, and our part is to come to Jesus and believe. He saves us. But we must choose to come to Him first. He does nnot force Himself on people, that is why He has us preach the gospel. Not pick them out of a hat.

Uh, right; I agree... <smile> But you and SI are both in effect saying that we decide to be made new, and that God's decision to make us new is based on our decision, which is a work... which is putting the cart before the horse.

The choice we make is not work, it is what God requires from us. Works are what we do after. Not before. Cart, meet horse again.

LOL! I agree! LOL! But, nor do we make a decision to be born again before we are born again. <smile> Dead is dead, dad. By nature, we are dead in our sin.

Yes we decide to be born again, or not. We do not do the miracle required to be born of the spirit. God does, but only after we ask. THEN we receive. Seek, then we find etc. First we come to Him, then we are not cast out.

I did. <smile> I asked you to back up what you said (if you can) with Scripture. This speaks volumes...

See above. Rinse, repeat.

Well, if you mean individuals in those nations or people groups, there is not one not able to be saved. With God all things are possible...

That is vague. It could mean (maybe to a Calvinist) God is able to select anyone from those groups or etc. Rather than 'The people in those nations could receive eternal life if they wanted to come to Jesus'

Uhhhh... <chuckles> ...those not appointed for salvation. By saying "those appointed for salvation" in Acts 13:48, dad, as Luke does, is to say implicitly, there were those there who were not appointed for salvation. But we cannot know who is and is not appointed; God is the Appointer... <smile>

I like the Children's version translation

When the non-Jewish people heard Paul say this, they were happy. They gave honor to the message of the Lord. And many of the people believed the message. They were the ones chosen to have life forever

Or the GWT
The people who were not Jews were pleased with what they heard and praised the Lord’s word. Everyone who had been prepared for everlasting life believed

But in any version, it spells out who the message of salvation was to!

26 “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

In case anyone was thick, and missed that, it again spells it out a few verses later

39 and by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the Law of Moses.

Then, the verse before 48 says this

47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, ‘I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest bring salvation unto the ends of the earth.’”

If, as you seem to say, certain people already were pre programmed to have salvation, and others destined for hell fire, then how is it that we need to preach the good news to all?

Hmmm... the words that you use here are troubling, like, "respecter of persons" (all of God's creation was originally, before the Fall of Adam and Eve, "very good") and "privileged minority"... God chose those of all His creation for His own glory. Everything He does is for His own glory.

That would not include pre destining most people to hell. He died for us so that all who believe can be saved. If it was all pre jiggered, why would Jesus need to suffer horribly and die??

There is a general call of the Gospel, general in the sense that it goes out to all, and there is an inward call by the Spirit, which is not general, not given to all but only God's elect.

For God to use someone, they need to believe. To receive. To come to Jesus. Then, some have different callings. For example we all have different gifts. Paul had a call to especially reach Gentiles. Some maybe have a call to teach...etc. First, we need to be saved. He calls all to be saved!

And this is God's purpose of election, as Paul says of Jacob and Esau, using them as examples, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad⁠ ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him Who calls..."

He knows what we will choose! All are sinners before that. God chooses those who choose Him. Or, in prophesy, such as Jacob and his brother, those He knows will choose Him.

We are all naturally "doomed,"... "by nature children of wrath." Completely undeserving of God's grace. All of us. No exceptions.

Yet you seem to suggest that God only selected some folks, (some exceptions) that would be swept along on a privileged magic carpet ride while most people were hopelessly doomed to hell.

"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
'It' - meaning salvation. That was what Jesus died to give us.

 

[PinSeeker]

.....

Now, you, dad, I'll continue to respond to... <smile> For now, at least... <smile> Not a warning or anything, just sayin'... <smile> But I don't have as much patience as the Lord... yet. So, again, just sayin'... <smile> I'll get back to you soon.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not even reading any more, here SI. No disrespect intended. No need to keep going through... or at least trying to... the same things over and over and over again. And to endure... <sigh> ...the disrespect, and anger, and mean-spiritedness, and bitterness, which are all totally uncalled for, and wrongheaded... "stuff" ... <smile> ...coming from you time and time again. So, I'm out. I really, really hope you're a nicer, calmer, more level-headed, conversational person in person, especially in Christian circles. Grace and peace to you.

If all you're going to do is say things like "dead is dead" in response to my arguments, then that's a sure sign that you're not willing to make any effort to address my points in any amount of detail, anyway. I'm sorry that you're so overly sensitive when being rebuked for your lack of clarity and lack of honesty in your treatment of some scriptures such as Romans 7:9-11 that clearly disprove your belief that people are born dead in their sins (What sins are they dead in at birth?). Maybe some day you will take a more honest look at this topic and discover the truth like you did when you took a closer look at the topic of whether Judas was saved after betraying Jesus or not.

 

[PinSeeker]

If all you're going to do is say things like "dead is dead" in response to my arguments, then that's a sure sign that you're not willing to make any effort to address my points in any amount of detail, anyway.

Even though I did. <smile> More than once. No, what it's "a sign" of, SI, is your absolute recalcitrance.

I'm sorry...

No you're not. No need anyway. You're just... yeah, recalcitrant is a pretty good word for you. It's just very poor. And that's in addition to your... well, online, anyway... demeanor: just a disrespect for, anger and mean-spiritedness and bitterness toward anyone who disagrees with you. It's very poor. And you know it.

...you're so overly sensitive when being rebuked for your lack of clarity and lack of honesty...

<eye roll> Yeah, more of the same. Lack of honesty, to you, is disagreeing with you, and providing reasons why. Interesting.

Oh, uh, "overly sensitive"... LOL! Just kind of incredulous, really, that you're that way. But so it is, I guess...

...such as Romans 7:9-11 that clearly disprove your belief that people are born dead in their sins...

In... your opinion. Yeah, that's cool, hold to what you want, but again, King David said it of himself, and it's true of all of us, regardless whether you accept it or not. It's the natural human condition... our heart is naturally sinful, absolutely inclined toward sin. That is the condition of our heart from birth, even conception. Just like David. And this is what John Calvin's "total depravity" is. Not that we are not capable of doing good things, but that everything we do, even the really good things, are tainted with sin; nothing we do, even good things is sinless. This is what necessitates Jesus's sacrifice and our need of salvation itself and of course being born again of the Spirit... to have His righteousness imputed, or credited to us. Paul, in Romans 7:9-11, SI, as I have said many times, says that learning the law made him acutely aware of his sin and his need of a savior, even Jesus, and this is not just a one-time thing, it is ongoing in this life. And it does the same thing for all of us, driving those of us who have been born again ~ like Paul was on the road to Demascus ~ it shows us our need for Jesus and continually drives us back to Him. And in verse 9 in particular...

"I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died"

He died to sin and was made alive to God. This is what happens when we are born again of the Spirit, SI. Paul says the same thing, but in a different way, just previously in Romans 6:6, where he says:

• "We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."

And he says the same thing in Galatians 2:20:

• "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me... the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me."

... and 5:24...

• "those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

And the greatest statement, I think, is what he then says in Galatians 6:14...

• "But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

You are dead (pun intended) wrong about Romans 7:9-11. Dead wrong. That doesn't make you a "bad person" or a "bad Christian" or unintelligent, or anything like that. Just... on at least this one thing... dead wrong.

And, as I've said before, that's really the core problem with Arminianism, is that they just will not bring themselves to accept ~ can't, in that sense ~ the naturally terrible condition of the human heart. They just cannot. If they did, then the rest of the dominoes would fall.

(What sins are they dead in at birth?).

It's not about specific sins, SI. Which I've said over and over again. Yeah again, absolute recalcitrance.

Maybe some day you will take a more honest look at this topic...

<eye roll> I was actually, once, some time ago, exactly where you (and all Arminians) are on it, SI. I was once there.

Okay, now I'm done. <smile> At least for now. <smile>

Grace and peace to you. Especially grace. <smile>

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Even though I did. <smile> More than once.

Nope. You are very delusional if you think saying "dead is dead" is a legitimate way of describing what being dead in sins means.

No, what it's "a sign" of, SI, is your absolute recalcitrance.

LOL. Keep pretending as if you know me. You think you are God. You are not.

No you're not. No need anyway. You're just... yeah, recalcitrant is a pretty good word for you.

LOL.

recalcitrant (adjective): having an obstinately uncooperative attitude, especially toward authority or discipline

As if you have any authority over me? Of course you do not. I have no obligation to bow down to you.

It's just very poor. And that's in addition to your... well, online, anyway... demeanor: just a disrespect for, anger and mean-spiritedness and bitterness toward anyone who disagrees with you. It's very poor. And you know it.

No, I don't know it. I call it out when people blatantly twist scripture and won't apologize for it. You probably think that Jesus was disrespectful and mean-spirited when talking to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23.

<eye roll> Yeah, more of the same. Lack of honesty, to you, is disagreeing with you, and providing reasons why. Interesting.

No, it's the lack of being willing to look honestly at what scripture is saying. Such as the way you handle Romans 7:9-11.

Oh, uh, "overly sensitive"... LOL! Just kind of incredulous, really, that you're that way. But so it is, I guess...

Yes, you are overly sensitive. that is very clear. Interesting that you find that to be funny.

In... your opinion. Yeah, that's cool, hold to what you want, but again, King David said it of himself, and it's true of all of us, regardless whether you accept it or not.

What is true of all of us is that we are born with a naturally tendency to eventually sin. That doesn't mean we're born dead in sin. That is ridiculous. You will not accept what Paul clearly said which is that sin killed him when he found out what it is. It didn't kill him at birth, it killed him when he came to find out what sin is.

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

You say Paul was dead in sins from birth, which makes it impossible for him to have ever been "alive once without the law". To you, he was never alive without the law. He said he died "when the commandment came". You say he was dead at birth. You are blatantly contradicting what Paul said. This is why I say you are dishonest with scripture. Paul said sin killed him (made him dead in his sins). You say being born killed him. I'm going to side with Paul over you every time.

It's the natural human condition... our heart is naturally sinful, absolutely inclined toward sin.

But, we don't actually sin right from birth. So, it's ludicrous to say that we are born dead in sins. Are we born in such a way that we will eventually sin if we live long enough to do so? Sure. But, that's very different than being born dead in sins. If we were born dead in sins then every baby and young child who dies would go to hell. Where do you think that babies and young children go when they die?

That is the condition of our heart from birth, even conception. Just like David. And this is what John Calvin's "total depravity" is.

His understanding of total depravity is like yours. He taught that people are born dead in their sins. Paul taught otherwise.

Not that we are not capable of doing good things, but that everything we do, even the really good things, are tainted with sin; nothing we do, even good things is sinless.

LOL. That is utterly ludicrous. How can something good be tainted with sin? Nonsense. Is repenting a good thing to do? Yes. Does God command all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30)? Yes. So, when someone repents is that tainted with sin? Of course not.

This is what necessitates Jesus's sacrifice and our need of salvation itself and of course being born again of the Spirit... to have His righteousness imputed, or credited to us.

You remove all responsibility from man with your doctrine. If a random person came to you to ask you what he or she had to do to be saved, you could not answer them the way Paul and Silas answered the jailer who asked them that question (Acts 16:30-31). You couldn't honestly tell that person that what they need to do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. You don't believe every person can do that. You would need to tell them that there is nothing that they do to be saved except hope that some day God gives them repentance and faith unto salvation.

Paul, in Romans 7:9-11, SI, as I have said many times, says that learning the law made him acutely aware of his sin and his need of a savior, even Jesus, and this is not just a one-time thing, it is ongoing in this life.

He did not just say that it made him aware of his sin. This is why I say you are dishonest with scripture. He specifically said that sin killed him. He specifically said that he was alive without the law but when the commandment of the law came, that is when he died (became dead in sins). In your view he was never alive without the law (alive before becoming aware of his sin) because you think he was dead in sins from birth. You are not at all addressing what the text actually indicates.

And it does the same thing for all of us, driving those of us who have been born again ~ like Paul was on the road to Demascus ~ it shows us our need for Jesus and continually drives us back to Him. And in verse 9 in particular...

"I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died"

He died to sin and was made alive to God.

You are taking that verse completely out of context. He wasn't saying that he died to sin there. He is talking about a time before he was saved. If he was talking about dying to sin there, then in what sense do you think he was alive apart from the law? What you are saying is that he was alive apart from the law and then the commandment of the law came and he then became alive and dead to sin. That makes no sense. In that verse he is saying that he was formerly alive apart from the law, but then he died when the commandment came. That means he became dead in sins once he was aware of what sin is. Which makes sense. How can someone be dead in sins who doesn't even know what sin is? Explain that.

Think about what you're saying here. Paul said in Romans 7:11 "sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.". Your understanding of what he said is that sin deceived him and made him dead to sin. That clearly makes no sense. Sin made him dead to sin? Obviously not. This is why I say you don't look at the text honestly.

This is what happens when we are born again of the Spirit, SI. Paul says the same thing, but in a different way, just previously in Romans 6:6, where he says:

• "We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."

Nope. You are mixing up unrelated verses that have completely different contexts. Please address what the text in Romans 7:9-11 actually says.

 

[PinSeeker]

Nope. You are very delusional if you think saying "dead is dead" is a legitimate way of describing what being dead in sins means.

It's not a description, per se, of what being dead in sin means, and was not meant that way; it's just a statement that if someone is dead, he or she is dead, and therefore ~ and this has to be understood in the proper context, which is not hard, but you will probably not do, not because you can't but because of your... recalcitrance ~ incapable of doing anything. And Paul says that before we are born again of the Spirit, we are dead in our sin, just like the rest of mankind, all of whom have not been born again, is now. It is what it is. At any given moment, a person is either still dead in sin... or born again of the Spirit, raised in Christ, and alive to God. There is no ambiguity.

Keep pretending as if you know me.

I, along with pretty much everybody on this board, SI, know how you are on this board. We all see it in just about every post you make, so there's no "pretending." On this board, you are who you are. Like I say, in person, you may be a really nice person, and I think probably you are. But here... yeah not so much.

You think you are God.

Oh my goodness. <eye roll>

recalcitrant (adjective): having an obstinately uncooperative attitude, especially toward authority or discipline

As if you have any authority over me? Of course you do not. I have no obligation to bow down to you.

Of course not. The definition said 'especially,' SI, not 'exclusively.' A person can have an obstinately uncooperative attitude toward anyone, regardless of whether there is authority there or not, and in the case of you and me there is not. Again, my goodness.

What is true of all of us is that we are born with a naturally tendency to eventually sin.

But you think it's possible to do something, anything, that doesn't have some element of sin, however small, mixed in... to be perfect and absolutely holy in that something/anything. That's precisely the problem. Even our belief in Jesus is not perfect; so there is some element, however small, of not believing God... not completely believing and trusting in God. In this life, we can never be completely free of sin in anything we do. Like Paul says in Galatians 5:9, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump." And that's the proper concept of total depravity.

That doesn't mean we're born dead in sin.

Okay, yes it does; we disagree. But yes, if anyone born (after Adam and Eve) without the proclivity to sin ~ knowing good and evil, as Adam and Eve acquired that knowledge, which is merely a cognitive knowledge of the difference between good and evil ~ we would never sin and would never have sinned and would not be inclined to sin or tempted to do so, and there would never have been nor now be any need for a Savior.

You will not accept what Paul clearly said which is that sin killed him when he found out what it is.

No, I don't accept what you think he "clearly said." Which I clearly posted in my last post.

How can something good be tainted with sin? Nonsense.

Hmmm... Well let me ask you a question... rhetorical, just to make a point. I mean you'll ignore or dismiss it, but it is what it is: Even when you do something good, SI, whatever that is, is there not at least some little tiny part of you that, well, feels good about yourself, so prideful, even in the smallest way about doing that good thing? I mean there is. We can't help it. We cannot be as humble, as selfless, as... well, 100 percent in the fruit (singular) of the Spirit ~ love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control ~ as Jesus was.

You remove all responsibility from man with your doctrine.

No, I just don't... misplace it. Or think we are capable of perfectly meeting that responsibility without the indwelling Spirit of God.

If a random person came to you to ask you what he or she had to do to be saved, you could not answer them the way Paul and Silas answered the jailer who asked them that question (Acts 16:30-31). You couldn't honestly tell that person that what they need to do is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. You don't believe every person can do that. You would need to tell them that there is nothing that they do to be saved except hope that some day God gives them repentance and faith unto salvation.


He did not just say that it made him aware of his sin. This is why I say you are dishonest with scripture. He specifically said that sin killed him. He specifically said that he was alive without the law but when the commandment of the law came, that is when he died (became dead in sins). In your view he was never alive without the law (alive before becoming aware of his sin) because you think he was dead in sins from birth. You are not at all addressing what the text actually indicates.


You are taking that verse completely out of context. He wasn't saying that he died to sin there. He is talking about a time before he was saved. If he was talking about dying to sin there, then in what sense do you think he was alive apart from the law? What you are saying is that he was alive apart from the law and then the commandment of the law came and he then became alive and dead to sin. That makes no sense. In that verse he is saying that he was formerly alive apart from the law, but then he died when the commandment came. That means he became dead in sins once he was aware of what sin is. Which makes sense. How can someone be dead in sins who doesn't even know what sin is? Explain that.

Think about what you're saying here. Paul said in Romans 7:11 "sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.". Your understanding of what he said is that sin deceived him and made him dead to sin. That clearly makes no sense. Sin made him dead to sin? Obviously not. This is why I say you don't look at the text honestly. You are mixing up unrelated verses that have completely different contexts. Please address what the text in Romans 7:9-11 actually says.

<eye roll>

Let's just stop, SI. We disagree. Fine. You can't do it, can you? <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you. Again, especially grace. <chuckles>

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not a description, per se, of what being dead in sin means, and was not meant that way; it's just a statement that if someone is dead, he or she is dead, and therefore ~ and this has to be understood in the proper context, which is not hard, but you will probably not do, not because you can't but because of your... recalcitrance ~ incapable of doing anything.

Stop being a hypocrite and deal with your own recalcitrance.

And Paul says that before we are born again of the Spirit, we are dead in our sin, just like the rest of mankind, all of whom have not been born again, is now. It is what it is. At any given moment, a person is either still dead in sin... or born again of the Spirit, raised in Christ, and alive to God. There is no ambiguity.

There you go again. It is what it is. That says nothing. That is not an explanation for what it means to be dead in sin. Being dead in sin does not equate to being unable to do anything, including being unable to repent and put one's faith in Jesus Christ. Paul said that no one, including all who are dead in sin, have any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him. So, clearly, being dead in sin does not prevent someone from doing what God wants and expects them to do. When a person physically dies, his or her soul and spirit separate from his or her body. When Jesus comes again and judges all people, unbelievers will then be separated from God forever (2 Thess 1:9, Matthew 25:41, etc.). So, death results in separation. The word "dead" has nothing to do with what someone is capable or incapable of doing. I've told you this before already and you didn't address it. All you can say is "dead is dead" or "it is what it is". How can you think that's a reasonable argument?

I, along with pretty much everybody on this board, SI, know how you are on this board. We all see it in just about every post you make, so there's no "pretending." On this board, you are who you are. Like I say, in person, you may be a really nice person, and I think probably you are. But here... yeah not so much.

When I see people blatantly twist scripture, as occurs often on this forum, I'm not going to sugarcoat that. You are apparently here to try to make friends and not offend anyone. That's not why I'm here. It's not acceptable for anyone to blatantly twist scripture the way some here do, including you.

Of course not. The definition said 'especially,' SI, not 'exclusively.' A person can have an obstinately uncooperative attitude toward anyone, regardless of whether there is authority there or not, and in the case of you and me there is not. Again, my goodness.

My goodness yourself. Are you this annoying in person? I hope not.

But you think it's possible to do something, anything, that doesn't have some element of sin, however small, mixed in... to be perfect and absolutely holy in that something/anything. That's precisely the problem.

Come on. Please be serious. Being a sinner does not mean we do nothing but sin at all times. Goodness gracious. Sinners can occasionally do legitimately good things. That's a fact. But, it counts for nothing because it doesn't make up for our sins. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. That statement doesn't say that people don't actually do anything righteous, but it's as filthy rags in comparison to our sins. Only Christ's blood can cover our sins and make us counted as righteous.

Okay, yes it does; we disagree. But yes, if anyone born (after Adam and Eve) without the proclivity to sin ~ knowing good and evil, as Adam and Eve acquired that knowledge, which is merely a cognitive knowledge of the difference between good and evil ~ we would never sin and would never have sinned and would not be inclined to sin or tempted to do so, and there would never have been nor now be any need for a Savior.

Paul said in Romans 7:9 "I was alive once without the law" but "when the commandment came, sin revived and I died". You have yet to explain

No, I don't accept what you think he "clearly said." Which I clearly posted in my last post.

You have not addressed what the text actually says at all. You claim that Paul was talking about becoming dead to sin when that is not at all the context of Romans 7:9-11. But, will you take another look at the text honestly to see if that is what he was talking about? Of course not because you are afraid to do so because you are so prideful and unwilling to consider changing your beliefs regarding this topic. Look at what Paul said in Romans 7:11.

11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

It says that sin deceived him and killed him. You said he was talking about becoming dead to sin here. That would mean he was saying the sin made him dead to sin. Can you see how that makes no sense? He was talking here about his condition before he became saved when he was "without the law". In Romans 7:9, he said he was once alive without the law, so he's talking about the time before he was aware of the law of Moses. When he became aware of the law that is when he said sin, through the commandment (of the law), deceived him and killed him. It made him dead in his sins. Not dead to sin. He wasn't even saved yet at that point, so it did not make him dead to sin. Sin made him dead in sins. That is clearly what he was saying there. But, you won't even address this. You don't like that I say you're dishonest about this topic, but how can I came to any other conclusion whene you clearly are not willing to engage with me honestly in regards to what the text in Romans 7:9-11 actually says?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hmmm... Well let me ask you a question... rhetorical, just to make a point. I mean you'll ignore or dismiss it, but it is what it is: Even when you do something good, SI, whatever that is, is there not at least some little tiny part of you that, well, feels good about yourself, so prideful, even in the smallest way about doing that good thing?

Sometimes we all can do things without the right motives, but not always. Even unbelievers are occasionally able to understand what is right and want to do what is right, not for their own gain or their pride, but simply because it's the right thing to do. Your understanding of human beings has been tainted by Calvinism. You think human beings are all purely evil and their motives are evil at literally all times. Yes, some people can get to that point, but no one is born that way. Read Romans 1:18-32. Paul talks about how people become fools who exchange the truth for a lie. People are not born as fools who exchange the truth for a lie. Otherwise, we'd have an excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, but Paul said no one has any excuse for that (Romans 1:18-21). Yes, we are all sinners and our sins separate us from God. No doubt. None of us are righteous. None of us are good. But, that does not mean we are incapable of ever doing the right thing. You take it too far by coming to that conclusion.

I said this already before, but you haven't responded for some reason. I'll try again. Jesus calls sinners to repentance, right? That's what it says in Mark 2:16-17 and parallel passages. Do you think there are any sinners who He does not call to repentance? He didn't make any exceptions. So, I see no reason to conclude anything except that He calls all sinners to repentance. So, Jesus clearly believed that even people who are dead in their sins, who He also said are sick (Mark 2:16-17), are capable of choosing to do the right thing (repent, in this case). Why don't you?

I mean there is. We can't help it. We cannot be as humble, as selfless, as... well, 100 percent in the fruit (singular) of the Spirit ~ love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control ~ as Jesus was.

No, not 100% of the time, but is that what we're talking about here? No. We're talking about someone being capable of recognizing and acknowledging their lost, sinful state after becoming aware of that after hearing the gospel. Why would anyone not be able to recognize and acknowledge their lost, sinful state after hearing the gospel? It's not about people becoming 100% perfect in order to be saved, it's about people acknowledging that they can't save themselves and need Jesus to save them. Where does scripture teach that some people are not capable of doing that? Nowhere that I know. Incapable of being sinless? Sure. Incapable of confessing that they are sinners? No.

No, I just don't... misplace it. Or think we are capable of perfectly meeting that responsibility without the indwelling Spirit of God.

Why is that? The responsibility is not to become perfect, sinless people. It's to confess that we are sinners and can't save ourselves and need Jesus to save us. Tell me why anyone is not capable of doing that? Again, Jesus called sinners to repentance. That means He expects sinners to repent. Where did He say that any sinners are not capable of doing so? Show me.

<eye roll>

Let's just stop, SI. We disagree. Fine. You can't do it, can you? <chuckles>

Are you uninterested in learning anything? I'm showing you the truth of this matter, but you want to stop. Why? LOL at you saying I cant stop when you know that you can't stop, either. I don't really want to, as long as you're willing to continue. You said you were done at least a couple times already, yet here you still are. LOL.

I am fine with agreeing to disagree, but I wish you would look at Romans 7:9-11 more honestly and address what it actually says first. That's all I ask. Then we cana be done. So far, you haven't done that. It seems like you just are intent on disagreeing without being willing to take a closer, objective look at the text and that is frustrating to witness.

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay, getting back to you, now; sorry for the delay...

The point being we are saved by our choice in coming to Jesus...

No, our choice is evidence, even to ourselves, that we have been born again of the Holy Spirit. God saves sinners. Salvation if of the Lord. We do not... cannot... save ourselves by doing anything, even choosing God, which we will never do unless we are born again of the Spirit and given this new spirit by God.

...not who our parents are...

Yeah, didn't say or insinuate that.

In the normal sense, Israel is a certain people.

In any sense, Israel is a certain people. <smile> But there are two very different senses. <smile> And, you're only... seeing, acknowledging... one of those senses. That's the issue.

It was always really only the believers.

Ah! Well I absolutely agree.

When the Messiah came, it became, of course about belief in Him

Not only when/after He came. Let me ask you this, dad...

Wait. Sidebar. You know what? Sorry. I'm not going to call you "dad" anymore. That has nothing to do with you, or disrespecting you in any way. You understand, I think, but I can't call anyone else 'dad' other than the man who was actually my father, who was "Dad" to me for... well, I'll just say a lot of years... <smile> He had his faults, but he was my Dad, and I still miss him terribly. And will probably never see him again...​

Okay, so... <smile> Question for you. You've read Leviticus, I'm sure, maybe many times. Who, oh man, Who ~ capital W,' a strong hint ~ is the Lamb ~ capital 'L,' another really strong hint ~ without blemish? I think you know the answer. So, therefore, Who were the Israelites of old really believing in by sacrificing these lambs without blemish? Were not those lambs what we call types and shadows of Christ, so that therefore they were putting their trust really in Christ Jesus, and not the actual lambs they were sacrificing?

The land promised was actually real.

Sure.

Specific borders and cities.

Sure. But in the true promise, there are no borders, and again, we are that city, the City of God.

It was not a 'lesson' we learned from, such as the disobedience of the freed slaves from Egypt etc etc.

Their having been brought out of slavery in Egypt is a foreshadowing of our ~ well, those of us who have been born again of the Spirit, which I'm assuming includes you ~ having been brought out of slavery to sin and set free in Christ, the larger truth that was always and always will be the greater reality.

reality can be our friend if we let it.

Yes. Absolutely. <smile>

So when Jesus went to prepare a place for us in heaven, you think He really meant that He was up there tinkering with saints? Not a real place?

No, I just don't understand it in the... limited... way you do, my friend. And I'm not saying you're limited, or lacking in intellegence, or anything like that. But it's just a limited (in at least two different ways... physically and spiritually) thinking on that.

No real city with the precise dimensions He laid out?

We are the City of God. And we are an exact, precise number (not just 144,000... <smile>).

When we see Paul talking about it, should we wave it away as fiction?

No. <smile>

Are we to think that the angels are not really angels as well? That God is not really living? That joyful 'really' means sad? That heaven really means the moon?

<chuckles> No. <smile>

Rather than contradict God when He says that we need to believe in Jesus and receive Him, we should accept it.

Rrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiight. <smile> Sure. I agree. <smile>

The belief is not what saves us...

Didn't you just say, in this very post, that it is? I mean, above, you said (and I quote), "we are saved by our choice in coming to Jesus." I'm not making that up... <smile>

...it is Jesus, and our part is to come to Jesus and believe. He saves us.

We have no part in conferring salvation upon ourselves. God saves. Salvation is of the Lord. Jesus is the... "vehicle," so to speak, through Whom, because of Whom we can be and are saved. He is our Mediator. And... well, no one can come to the Father except through Jesus, and no one can come to Jesus without having been drawn by God Himself, both of which Jesus Himself said.

In effect, what you're saying here is that He only saves us if ~ if ~ we "come to Jesus and believe." And that's backwards. If we do come to Jesus and believe, it is outward evidence, even to ourselves, that we have been saved... have been born again of the Spirit of God. And this is exactly what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5, that "According to His..." (God's, of course) "...great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." And this fits perfectly with what Paul says in Romans 9:15-18, that "For He..." God, of course) "...says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above...

But we must choose to come to Him first.

No, God must choose who is to be conformed to the image of His Son, which He did before the foundation of the world, according to His ~ not our ~ will, as Paul wrote in Ephesians 1:4-5, and we must be born again of the Spirit to enter or even see the Kingdom of God, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:3-8.

He does not force Himself on people...

No, but He does have mercy and compassion on people... certain people, His elect... and in so doing gives them a new spirit, puts His Spirit in them. And in so doing they are drawn by God (see above) and freely do so... Otherwise, they would not.

, that is why He has us preach the gospel.

Faith ~ God's assurance of things hoped for, the conviction by the Spirit, Who convicts (Hebrews 11:1) ~ comes by hearing, as Paul says in Romans 10:17.

Not pick them out of a hat.

What God does can certainly seem arbitrary to us, but that does not make it so. God has purpose in everything He does, and that one over-arching purpose is His own glory. And regarding His elect, as Paul says, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory⁠ ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" As Isaiah says, quoting God Himself, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways... as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

The choice we make is not work

That's not what I said, and you know it. The choice we make is something we do, and therefore a work. Come on, man.

Works are what we do after.

Agree with this, for sure. <smile>

Yes we decide to be born again, or not.

No, Nicodemus, we do not. <smile> Did you somehow say to your mother and father, before you came to be, "I would like to be born," and then they decided to... well... you know, do the thing...? <smile>

We do not do the miracle required to be born of the spirit. God does...

Right...

, but only after we ask.

Not right. At all. See above.

See above. Rinse, repeat.

Hmmm, yeah, so, right back to you... See above. Rinse, repeat. <smile>

That is vague.

Not at all.

It could mean (maybe to a Calvinist) God is able to select anyone from those groups or etc. Rather than 'The people in those nations could receive eternal life if they wanted to come to Jesus'

Hm. Okay, and it could mean both at the same time, and does.

I like the Children's version translation

When the non-Jewish people heard Paul say this, they were happy. They gave honor to the message of the Lord. And many of the people believed the message. They were the ones chosen to have life forever...

Hmmm... well that could be understood in two different ~ and valid ~ ways. But even though the ways are valid, they can still be contradictory, and not able to both be held to at the same time. In the last sentence, we could take it as written as either "They were the ones chosen then or as a result, to have life forever" or "They were the ones who were, or had been, chosen to have life forever." Because of the way it is written, both ways would be valid understandings, but they cannot both be true. And as Paul says (yet again), "chose us in him before the foundation of the world... according to the purpose of his will." So the latter understanding, that "They were the ones who were, or had been, chosen to have life forever," is the correct way to read that.

In case anyone was thick...

<chuckles>

and missed that, it again spells it out a few verses later

39 and by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the Law of Moses.

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in there ~ or in any like passage ~ about our making or not making a choice. Nothing. It is all about God... His purpose, and His actions.

If, as you seem to say, certain people already were pre programmed...

Not "pre-programmed." That's the Arminian characterization, but is just that, a... well, silly, really... characterization. A caricature, really.

...to have salvation, and others destined for hell fire...

God chose who He chose. He has mercy and compassion upon whom He chooses... elects to do so. And He doesn't choose others in this way. He is the Potter and we are the clay, and as such, endured with much patience those not chosen and makes known the riches of His glory those chosen. And as Creator, this is His prerogative. He is absolutely just to do so. He could have chosen not to extend his mercy and compassion to anybody, and He would have been absolutely just to do that. But there is grace. "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us..." (His elect) "...even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved.." (Ephesians 2:4-9).

He knows what we will choose!

Ah, yes, I... foresaw this... <smile> "Those whom He foreknew," as Paul says in Romans 8:29... Yes, I knew ~ because we always do, with Arminians ~ we would eventually land here. So, 'foreknew.' Let me ask you this. That 'those,' there... Well, sorry, I'm not asking, I'm saying; there is no other way to understand this. That 'those' is a limited group. If we understand God's foreknowing as a mere cognitive "seeing into the future and knowing beforehand," well, God knows everyone and everything beforehand. We all agree on that. But Paul is obviously referring not to everyone, but a specific group of people, a subset of the whole of humanity. I think you can take it from there, but the unavoidable implication is that God does not foreknow ~ actually did not foreknow ~ everyone. So His foreknowing, as referred to by Paul there, cannot ~ cannot ~ be a mere cognitive knowing beforehand. This foreknowing is synonymous with fore-loving. His elect He fore-loved, which is what he says just a couple of sentences later, using Jacob and Esau as examples... representatives, really:

"...though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad⁠ ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls⁠ ~ (Rebecca) was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'" (Romans 9:11-13).

God chooses those who choose Him.

So again you're saying, in effect, that God's will depends on our will, and turning Paul's statement that "...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16) upside down. You don't mean to, I know, but you are.

Or, in prophesy, such as Jacob and his brother, those He knows will choose Him.

See above.

Yet you seem to suggest that God only selected some folks...

His elect, yes. See above.

...that would be swept along on a privileged magic carpet ride while most people were hopelessly doomed to hell.

<eye roll>

"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
'It' - meaning salvation.

The 'it' is obviously referring to His purpose of election, so, His electing some and not all... those to whom He gives His mercy and compassion.

That was what Jesus died to give us.

Right, but regarding all of humanity, made it possible for us to have. He made a way, and is the one through Whom anyone can be reconciled to God. But only certain ones will be... God's elect. All of them will, after being born again of the Spirit, then freely and willingly call on the name of the Lord. This is the 'whosoever,' and they will be saved.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

@Spiritual Israelite

Bless your heart. <smile>

But really and truly: Bless your heart. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite

Bless your heart. <smile>

But really and truly: Bless your heart. Grace and peace to you.

Bless your heart, also. And grace and peace to you, also. And may you one day decide to look at the following text honestly and objectively instead of making it say what you want it to say.

(ESV) Romans 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

(PinSeeker Version) Romans 7:9 I was once never alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive died and I died to sin. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to sin for me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me died and through it killed me made me dead to sin.

 

[PinSeeker]

Bless your heart, also. And grace and peace to you, also. And may you one day decide to look at the following text honestly and objectively instead of making it say what you want it to say.

You continue to think I take that passage out of context, when I clearly demonstrated, in Post 306 that it is you who... inadvertently, I guess, although that possibly may not actually be the case... do just that. Plus you have called me a liar numerous times, which is certainly not the case. Not only does Paul clearly communicate the correct understanding of what he's saying there in Romans 6 and 7, but also in Galatians 2, 5, and 6. You are dead wrong. Now, you can (and will) say that I'm wrong about it, and surely will, and I have no problem with that, other than the fact that you are wrong in saying that. But what you cannot with any credibility at all do is say that I am not "following text honestly" ~ that's absolutely laughable ~ or that I am lying ~ that's also laughable ~ or that I am "not looking at it objectively" ~ which is not only laughable but ridiculous and stupid ~ or "making say what I want it to say" ~ that's ridiculous, as the text plainly says what I am saying, again, not only in Romans 6 and 7, and Galatians 2, 5, and 6, and you can add Ephesians 2, and Peter's words in 1 Peter 1. You are dead wrong about Romans 7:9-11.

(ESV) Romans 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

(PinSeeker Version) Romans 7:9 I was once never alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive died and I died to sin. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to sin for me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me died and through it killed me made me dead to sin.

The record proves the ridiculousness of this. What you will not understand is what Paul means when he says, particularly, "sin came alive"... and also "and I died" and "it killed me" there. It should be obvious, though, with a little thinking, because he goes on to say, regarding sin, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Now, what I could do ~ if I was as mean-spirited as you ~ is rephrase that in the manner that you implicitly are... in the same manner as you falsely are my words in your little quote here. But I'll spare you of that; we'll call it grace. But you are... dead wrong. Pun intended. At the very least, was sin itself not alive, even in him, before his Demascus Road experience? Of course it was. With his conversion to Christ, his born-again experience, he became dead to sin and alive to Christ/God... or, as he says in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me... the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me." This is true of all of us who have been born again of the Spirit of the Living God.

Now, I think this response to have been necessary, but spending any more time with you on this is ridiculous, because you're continued assertions about me are absolutely ridiculous and totally uncalled for. And again, the record clearly shows it. Truly, I hope you're a better person that what you've showed here. Grace and peace to you. The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.

 

[dad]

No, our choice is evidence, even to ourselves, that we have been born again of the Holy Spirit.

Evidence because we choose Him and He came through. Not evidence of some weird special deal some were destined to make like it or lump it.

God saves sinners. Salvation if of the Lord. We do not... cannot... save ourselves by doing anything, even choosing God, which we will never do unless we are born again of the Spirit and given this new spirit by God.

We must ask and receive. That is our part. Of course it is all God that then steps in and saves us.

In any sense, Israel is a certain people. <smile> But there are two very different senses. <smile> And, you're only... seeing, acknowledging... one of those senses. That's the issue.

The sense the prophesy we are discussing is the actual point. That prophesy is about a saved Israel in the end that God then protects and brings to a certain land. Now if you want to call all believers 'Israel', fine. In that sense, 'Israel' will not be inheriting real estate in the middle east that we are carted off to.

Not only when/after He came. Let me ask you this, dad...

Wait. Sidebar. You know what? Sorry. I'm not going to call you "dad" anymore. That has nothing to do with you, or disrespecting you in any way. You understand, I think, but I can't call anyone else 'dad' other than the man who was actually my father, who was "Dad" to me for... well, I'll just say a lot of years... <smile> He had his faults, but he was my Dad, and I still miss him terribly. And will probably never see him again...​

There are lots of dads in the world. But if you are hung up on the name, use some other one.

Okay, so... <smile> Question for you. You've read Leviticus, I'm sure, maybe many times. Who, oh man, Who ~ capital W,' a strong hint ~ is the Lamb ~ capital 'L,' another really strong hint ~ without blemish? I think you know the answer. So, therefore, Who were the Israelites of old really believing in by sacrificing these lambs without blemish?

Jesus. People then were saved believing He would come, we are saved believing He did come

Sure. But in the true promise, there are no borders, and again, we are that city, the City of God.

Yes, the true promise talks of the precise promised land on earth. That is the promise in the promise we are talking about

Their having been brought out of slavery in Egypt is a foreshadowing of our ~ well, those of us who have been born again of the Spirit, which I'm assuming includes you ~ having been brought out of slavery to sin and set free in Christ, the larger truth that was always and always will be the greater reality.

That changes nothing. Just because we glean some lessons from the old testament does not mean it was not true

No, I just don't understand it in the... limited... way you do, my friend.

God is true and all His promises will happen. One cannot imagine one has some better limits.

And I'm not saying you're limited, or lacking in intellegence, or anything like that. But it's just a limited (in at least two different ways... physically and spiritually) thinking on that.

As is God. Limited by His word. He cannot lie.

We are the City of God. And we are an exact, precise number (not just 144,000... <smile>).

We can be called the city of God in a sense. But we are not Jerusalem or New Jerusalem, or Chicago. He is not a city!Nor are we animals and actually sheep in that sense. We are people. Like Jesus became a real man.

Didn't you just say, in this very post, that it is? I mean, above, you said (and I quote), "we are saved by our choice in coming to Jesus." I'm not making that up... <smile>

Jesus saves us. Only if we choose. Therefore our choice is required for salvation. It is wrong to take out of context 'we are saved by our choice in coming to Jesus' to try and make it mean the choice itself, rather than (obviously) Jesus saves us.

We have no part in conferring salvation upon ourselves. God saves.

Yes of course we have a part. We need to believe. Receive. If we don't then we do not receive eternal life. That does not in any way mean we save ourselves. It means our part is important. Unless we choose and come to Him, there is no salvation.

Salvation is of the Lord. Jesus is the... "vehicle," so to speak, through Whom, because of Whom we can be and are saved.

Of course it is just God that saves us and can save us. Part of the 'deal' is that we ask. Believe. THEN He works. There is no salvation unless we receive Christ.

He is our Mediator. And... well, no one can come to the Father except through Jesus,

And no one can be whisked to Him on some special privileged magic carpet that does not choose Jesus.

and no one can come to Jesus without having been drawn by God Himself, both of which Jesus Himself said.

Since He calls all to repentance that means all people on earth. Many are called. Few answer that call.

In effect, what you're saying here is that He only saves us if ~ if ~ we "come to Jesus and believe."

Bingo

And that's backwards. If we do come to Jesus and believe, it is outward evidence, even to ourselves, that we have been saved...

No. It is a necessary step in the plan of salvation set up by God. He that believes not does not have eternal life. No special respecting of persons involved there. No select few that have a magic ticket to heaven already, and whether they ask/believe/receive or not, in they go.

have been born again of the Spirit of God. And this is exactly what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5, that "According to His..." (God's, of course) "...great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable,

Yes, as soon as we come to Him! First. Cart meet horse again.

undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

AFTER we are saved He guards it and us, of course. It is not that some few are guarded and saved without coming to Jesus first. THEN we get guarded.

And this fits perfectly with what Paul says in Romans 9:15-18, that "For He..." God, of course) "...says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.'

Right, whosoever comes to Him, That is who He wills to save.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy.

'It' being salvation. That is all God. Once we ask, we receive. It is not shoved down throats.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."

Right He raised up some hotshot that rejected His spirit, to show His power in still being able to deliver His people from they little tin pot dictator. This is news?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You continue to think I take that passage out of context, when I clearly demonstrated, in Post 306 that it is you who... inadvertently, I guess, although that possibly may not actually be the case... do just that. Plus you have called me a liar numerous times, which is certainly not the case. Not only does Paul clearly communicate the correct understanding of what he's saying there in Romans 6 and 7, but also in Galatians 2, 5, and 6. You are dead wrong.

If I'm dead wrong, then do something to prove it. Exegete the text for me like I've done. I've explained exactly how I understand the passage. You? Not so much. Explain how Paul was alive apart from the law. What does that mean? And explain how he died "when the commandment came". Explain how sin deceived Paul and killed him through the commandment. Nothing you have said so far explains these things.

Romans 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Now, you can (and will) say that I'm wrong about it, and surely will, and I have no problem with that, other than the fact that you are wrong in saying that.

LOL. And, yet, you are completely incapable of proving that, as you've shown by your weak commentary on the passage in question.

But what you cannot with any credibility at all do is say that I am not "following text honestly" ~ that's absolutely laughable ~ or that I am lying ~ that's also laughable ~ or that I am "not looking at it objectively" ~ which is not only laughable but ridiculous and stupid ~ or "making say what I want it to say"

How are you being honest with the text when Paul said he was previously alive apart from the law and then he later died when the commandment came. In what sense do you think he died when the commandment came? He said in verse 11 that sin killed him. It should be clear that he was speaking on the context of becoming dead in sin. Not at birth, but "when the commandment came". When he became aware of what sin was, in other words. How can someone be dead in sins with God's wrath on them before they ever even sin? That makes no sense. That would mean babies and young children who die have God's wrath on them and He would send them to hell. Think about all of this more carefully, so that your doctrine doesn't send dead babies and young children to hell.

~ that's ridiculous, as the text plainly says what I am saying

If that's the case, then show it. You can't even bring yourself to quote the passage. How exactly does it agree with what you're saying? Show me.

, again, not only in Romans 6 and 7, and Galatians 2, 5, and 6, and you can add Ephesians 2, and Peter's words in 1 Peter 1. You are dead wrong about Romans 7:9-11.

No, you are dead wrong about Romans 7:9-11. You are doing absolutely NOTHING to prove otherwise. I, on the other hand, am actually quoting the text and explaining how I understand every part of it. You? Not at all. You just say I'm dead wrong without doing anything at all to back that up from the text itself. What a joke.

The record proves the ridiculousness of this. What you will not understand is what Paul means when he says, particularly, "sin came alive"... and also "and I died" and "it killed me" there. It should be obvious, though, with a little thinking, because he goes on to say, regarding sin, "it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

What is your point here? Good job quoting scripture, but tell me how that scripture supports your point? How can you not discern that he was speaking of himself prior to being saved up to verse 13 and then he talked about the inner struggle within himself after being saved in verses 14 to 25? What you quoted there does not explain how sin came alive and how he died at that point BEFORE he was saved. He became aware of his lost, sinful state because of the law and that is when he became dead in sins. He didn't say he died in the sense of being dead in sins when he was born, he said he died when he became aware of the law and that sin killed him through the law. Why do you keep avoiding that?

Now, what I could do ~ if I was as mean-spirited as you ~ is rephrase that in the manner that you implicitly are... in the same manner as you falsely are my words in your little quote here.

How is it mean-spirited to illustrate how you understand the passage, based on what you've said? As I've said, you are overly sensitive. That's on you. I came up with a way to show how ridiculous your interpretation of the passage is, and you don't like it. Too bad.

But I'll spare you of that; we'll call it grace. But you are... dead wrong. Pun intended.

You keep saying that while doing literally nothing to back up that claim. You're all talk. Exegete the passage and break it down for me to show what each part of it is saying. You know, the way I did?

At the very least, was sin itself not alive, even in him, before his Demascus Road experience? Of course it was.

Yes, of course it was. Sin was alive in him once he became aware of what sin was thorugh the law. That is what killed him in the sense of him becoming dead in sins. That's what he is saying in Romans 7:9-11. He was not born dead in sins. If you want to keep believing that, then you need to acknowledge that your belief demands that babies and young children are dead in sins with God's wrath on them and, if they die, they go to hell. Are you willing to acknowledge the implications of your beliefs?

With his conversion to Christ, his born-again experience, he became dead to sin and alive to Christ/God... or, as he says in Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me... the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me." This is true of all of us who have been born again of the Spirit of the Living God.

Yes, he became dead to sin at that point, but that is NOT what Romans 7:9-11 is about. Just read the text!

Romans 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

If when he said "I died" in verse 9 and when he said sin killed him in verse 11 means he was saying he died to sin, then verse 11 would be saying that sin deceived him and made him dead to sin. Tell me how that makes any sense at all?

Now, I think this response to have been necessary, but spending any more time with you on this is ridiculous, because you're continued assertions about me are absolutely ridiculous and totally uncalled for.

No, they are quite accurate. You just won't admit it because you are very prideful. I suggest dealing with your pride issue before taking so much time telling me how mean-spirited I am.

And again, the record clearly shows it. Truly, I hope you're a better person that what you've showed here. Grace and peace to you. The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.

Your holier than thou act does not fool me. There is nothing wrong with rebuking someone for blatantly twisting God's word.

 

[PinSeeker]

@dad
@Spiritual Israelite
Well. Bless both your hearts, then. Heads of stone… But yeah, really, in all seriousness, bless both your hearts. Okay, just a couple of things:

 

[PinSeeker]

@dad

Now if you want to call all believers 'Israel', fine. In that sense, 'Israel' will not be inheriting real estate in the middle east...

...but the whole earth, exactly as Jesus says in Matthew 5:5. And yes, we, together, are God's Israel, the household of God. That's exactly what I have been saying, several times over now, the reason being that is exactly as Scripture says Yes, in the greater sense. Good for you (finally). Maybe you're not so stone-headed after all. <smile> However...

...we choose Him and He came through... We must ask and receive. That is our part. Of course it is all God that then steps in and saves us...we are saved by our choice in coming to Jesus... Only if we choose. Therefore our choice is required for salvation... part of the 'deal' is that we ask. Believe. THEN He works.... as soon as we come to Him... whosoever comes to Him, That is who He wills to save

In saying these things, here are the Scriptures (again) that you're turning on their head... refuting... stating the opposite of (and this is not an exhaustive list):

• Genesis 12:1 ~ in the call of Abram (later Abraham), there is nothing there regarding his having believed in God... or even known who He was/is, but when God told him to go, he obeyed... and this is exactly the case with all Jesus's the disciples, when He said to each of them, "Follow me." To that point, Jesus later says to them, in John 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..."
• Ezekiel 11:19-20 ~ God says, "I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God."
• Ezekiel 36:26-27 ~ same as above; God again says, "I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God."
• Matthew 19:26, Luke 18:27 ~ these are accounts by Mark and Luke of the same event; the disciples ask Him, "Who then can be saved?" To which Jesus looks at them (pointedly), and says, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" (Matthew), "What is impossible with man is possible with God" (Luke).
• John 1:11-13 ~ "He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (This receiving is of the Father, Who gives them to Jesus and Jesus to them.
• John 3:3-8 ~ "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
• John 6:37-40 ~ "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
• John 8:43-47 ~ "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
• John 10:25-30 ~ "I told you, and you do not believe... you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."
• Romans 8:28-30 ~ "...God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."
• Romans 9:14-19 ~ "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."
• Ephesians 1:3-6, 11-14 ~ "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace... In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."
• Ephesians 2:1-10 ~ "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience⁠ ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
• 1 Peter 1:3-5 ~ "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
• 1 John 4:19 ~ "We love because He first loved us."

Right He raised up some hotshot that rejected His spirit, to show His power in still being able to deliver His people from they little tin pot dictator. This is news?

Goodness gracious. Yeah. A head of stone. Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

@Spiritual Israelite

If I'm dead wrong, then do something to prove it.

You mean as if I haven't?

Yeah, a head of stone. <shrug> I mean, to your satisfaction, no, which I get, and acknowledged, but that's all you can really say.

I've explained exactly how I understand the passage.

Yes you have. <smile>

you are dead wrong about Romans 7:9-11.

Okay, we think the very same of each other. Cool.

You are doing absolutely NOTHING to prove otherwise...

Well, anymore, after this, because I have, at least three times now. But yeah, you're certainly welcome to your (stone-headed) opinion; far be it from me to deprive you of that... as if I could do so anyway...

...tell me how that scripture supports your point?

Why do something over and over again, thinking you might change your mind, but knowing the outcome ~ your continuing in your stone-headedness and insults ~ which is all you have ~ will be the same? Isn't that the definition of insanity? Again, I have, but sooner or later you just have to kind of throw your hands up and walk away. Not to compare myself to Jesus, but that's exactly what He did; it's what God does, too, really, in giving unbelievers over to their own selfish passions, and enduring them with great patience, and even giving them a great measure of grace (but not the particular grace of salvation), even though they don't acknowledge it.

How can you not discern that he was speaking of himself prior to being saved up to verse 13 and then he talked about the inner struggle within himself after being saved in verses 14 to 25?

Of course I "discern" that; it's what I have said several times now. But that's not the issue, Spiritual Israelite. The issue has always been, regarding verses 9 through 11... you saying that in those particular verses Paul said of himself that he "became dead in his sin," which is exactly the opposite of what he was saying there, and in saying that you were/are both contradicting yourself... <wide eyes> ...and making Paul out to contradict himself both here in Romans 7 and in Ephesians 2, when he says, of salvation itself (substituting 'we' here for 'you' because it's true of all of us who have been saved/born again), "(we) were dead in the trespasses and sins in which (we) once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience⁠ ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace (we) have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him..." And this is all in your futile effort to disprove John Calvin's concept of "total depravity" and that we are not born dead in sin.

which is patently false. And here it is again:

He became aware of his lost, sinful state because of the law and that is when he became dead in sins.

Maybe the problem, Spiritual Israelite, is how you state that. Maybe you're really thinking correctly but just stating things poorly. He did not "become dead in sins" (nor do any of us). What he's saying of himself ~ and also saying of all those in Christ, here and elsewhere, particularly Ephesians 2 ~ is that he (and they) was (were) formerly dead in his (their) sin, but now are dead to sin, and alive together with Christ, which is precisely what He says in Ephesians 2:5-8 ~, "...even when we were dead in our trespasses/sin, (God) made us alive together with Christ⁠... by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God."

He didn't say he died in the sense of being dead in sins when he was born, he said he died when he became aware of the law and that sin killed him through the law.

There is no state previous to being dead in sin. This is our natural state. As he says, "The natural person..." ~ ~ "...does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 1:14). We are born in our natural state, Spiritual Israelite ~ how anyone can think differently than that is just incredible, really ~ there is nothing... no state of man... previous to that, but only non-existence, having not been conceived or born. Now, there are some people out there who believe in a pre-existence, but I think you and I both agree that's... well, just nutty. <smile>

You might continue to deny thist, and if so, fair enough, but it is what it is.

I've... "done nothing to back up" my "claim." Wow. I mean that too is just a stone-headed thing to say.

Grace and peace to you.