THE BANNED PROPHET: EXAMINING WHY THE BOOK OF ENOCH WAS PURGED FROM THE CANON

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rwb

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Enoch is one of only two people in the Old Testament who were taken by God without dying (the other is Elijah).

If Enoch never died, why do we read that all the days of Enoch were 365 years? It seems to question whether or not Enoch for the first three hundred years of his life walked with God, until AFTER he begat Methuselah at 300 years of age???

Genesis 5:22 (KJV) And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:23 (KJV) And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

Genesis 5:24 (KJV) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

It seems that AFTER the birth of Methuselah, the character of Enoch resembled the moral character of God, that publicly he avowed faith in God. That, I believe, is what is meant in saying "Enoch walked with God" , and "God took him". IOW Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methuselah because through his character he was accepted (taken/took) by God, giving assurance that death of his body is not the end for Enoch and all who live according to the will of God who are accepted of Him.
 

rwb

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The Book of Enoch identifies the “Sons of God” in Genesis 6 as rebellious angels.

Most likely part of the reason the early church fathers rejected the writings of Enoch as being inspired by God. To include the writings of Enoch as belonging to the written Word of God forces contradiction into the Word. Because God tells us that angels of God are ALL ministering spirits sent forth to minister to heirs of salvation. According to the Bible, man, not angels were chosen to be sons of God.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
 
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rwb

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What might have happened if the Book of Enoch had made it into the final biblical canon:

Contradiction and confusion against the actual books that make up the Word of God that are recorded as coming to man by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for which the book of Enoch and other non-canonical books the early church fathers determined do not.
 

rwb

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No one is claiming Enoch himself sat down with papyrus in 300 BC. That’s a straw man. The point is that Jude; under inspiration of the Holy Spirit —

How do you prove the book of Enoch comes under inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Just because Jude wrote under the inspiration of God does not prove Enoch also wrote under inspiration of the Spirit. Jude being influenced by Enoch's writings does not prove the writings of Enoch came under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Jude 14 (KJV) And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
 

rwb

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And as for your claim about the canon, the church fathers didn’t reject Enoch because it was false. They quoted it, respected it, and preserved it. They excluded it from the canon mainly because of questions of liturgical use and apostolic connection, not because the content was deemed worthless. Even Tertullian argued it should be considered scripture.

But they also rejected the writings of Enoch as non-canonical, because of having not been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Wick Stick

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If Enoch never died, why do we read that all the days of Enoch were 365 years? It seems to question whether or not Enoch for the first three hundred years of his life walked with God, until AFTER he begat Methuselah at 300 years of age???

Genesis 5:22 (KJV) And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

Genesis 5:23 (KJV) And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

Genesis 5:24 (KJV) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

It seems that AFTER the birth of Methuselah, the character of Enoch resembled the moral character of God, that publicly he avowed faith in God. That, I believe, is what is meant in saying "Enoch walked with God" , and "God took him". IOW Enoch walked with God after the birth of Methuselah because through his character he was accepted (taken/took) by God, giving assurance that death of his body is not the end for Enoch and all who live according to the will of God who are accepted of Him.
That's a perfectly reasonable explanation of the verses.

Just one problem... it isn't how the Jews in the 1st century interpreted it. That isn't necessarily a deal-breaker, but it isn't a point in your favor.
 

Wick Stick

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But they [the early church] also rejected the writings of Enoch as non-canonical, because of having not been written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
The early church fathers didn't consider ANY books for canonicity AT ALL. That happened hundreds of years later.

As for Enoch, nobody in the Roman tradition appears to have been well-acquainted with it. The only people who write about it are those from African churches - Egypt, Carthage, etc.
 

rwb

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The early church fathers didn't consider ANY books for canonicity AT ALL. That happened hundreds of years later.

As for Enoch, nobody in the Roman tradition appears to have been well-acquainted with it. The only people who write about it are those from African churches - Egypt, Carthage, etc.

Yes, around the early first century after the advent of Christ is the appx date the early church fathers determined what books should be included in the Bible.

Numerous books, including apocryphal, pseudepigraphal, and Gnostic texts, were excluded from the Bible due to questions of authorship,
theological consistency, and widespread acceptance.

Overview of Excluded Books​

Throughout history, the Bible’s canon was shaped by criteria such as apostolic origin, widespread usage, and alignment with orthodox Christian theology. Books that did not meet these standards were left out, though many offer historical, cultural, or theological insights. These excluded texts fall into several categories:

Bible Hub+1

 
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Wick Stick

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Yes, around the early first century after the advent of Christ is the appx date the early church fathers determined what books should be included in the Bible.

Numerous books, including apocryphal, pseudepigraphal, and Gnostic texts, were excluded from the Bible due to questions of authorship,
theological consistency, and widespread acceptance.

Overview of Excluded Books​

Throughout history, the Bible’s canon was shaped by criteria such as apostolic origin, widespread usage, and alignment with orthodox Christian theology. Books that did not meet these standards were left out, though many offer historical, cultural, or theological insights. These excluded texts fall into several categories:
Bible Hub+1
No. WRONG. SO WRONG.

AI is SO SO SO BAD at this.

No, the pre-Nicene church did not consider the issue of canonicity. The 1st-century church did NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT consider the idea of canonicity. Canonicity wasn't a thing in the 1st -century.

edit: Someone (@elonmusk) needs to update all the AIs to include the idea of anchronism. They don't seem to understand the idea that any certain argument might be falsified by reason of being proposed before the underlying logic existed.
 
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Heart2Soul

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I hate to be contradictory, but... archaeology knows about a LOT of writing from Moses' day and earlier.

We have Egyptian writing that's 2,000 years before Moses. We KNOW Moses was educated as a Prince of Egypt.

We have Amorite writing 400 years earlier than Moses. We KNOW Moses conquered two tribes of Amorites. We even have a chapter of the Bible that scholars think was an Amorite poem before it was a Hebrew one (the languages are similar).

As for the Kenites, the Bible specifically calls them scribes...

1Chronicles 2:55 And the families of the scribes which dwelt at Jabez; the Tirathites, the Shimeathites, [and] Suchathites. These [are] the Kenites that came of Hemath, the father of the house of Rechab.

So, no, I don't think everything was passed on orally. Moses definitely knew how to write, probably in more than one language. It's likely that he had a whole clan of scribes traveling with him in the Exodus.
I recently met a person who has a master's degree in theology. I took the opportunity to discuss with him about oral or written. He explained to me that God told Moses to write the laws and preserve them for many generations to come. However, the Jewish men had to learn the entire Torah and Talmud to pass along orally to their descendants. The oral ceased after the destruction of the 2nd temple. So the oral transmission was intended to accompany the written at the time Moses received the commandments on Mt. Sinai. Therefore, both existed simultaneously.
 

Heart2Soul

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Thank you, @Wick Stick for discussing with me about the Torah and how it was passed down. It made me search out the truth and I found it. :joyful:
 
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Wick Stick

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I recently met a person who has a master's degree in theology. I took the opportunity to discuss with him about oral or written. He explained to me that God told Moses to write the laws and preserve them for many generations to come. However, the Jewish men had to learn the entire Torah and Talmud to pass along orally to their descendants. The oral ceased after the destruction of the 2nd temple. So the oral transmission was intended to accompany the written at the time Moses received the commandments on Mt. Sinai. Therefore, both existed simultaneously.
Memorization of the entire Torah (or more commonly just the 613 Mitzvot of the Torah) is definitely an ancient Jewish practice. We should talk about the timing of that.

The Israelites of Moses' day installed a system of judges and clan leaders and tribal leaders to administrate justice. Those judges created the 613 Mitzvot (commandments).

The judges among the Jews in David's day definitely were memorizing the Mitzvot. We know because David writes about doing so himself in the Psalms. But they probably weren't doing this to pass down culture or history (the genre of history didn't exist yet), but rather as part of their administration of justice. Today we call this case law.

The Israelites and Jews apostatized under Solomon and his successors. The Bible tells us that the northern nation (Israel) completely abandoned God in favor of the Baals, until they were eventually destroyed by the Assyrians. Safe to say they weren't memorizing the Law.

In the southern nation (Judah), it gets a bit confusing. All the nobles (aka all the people who could read) were carried away to Babylon in the exile. The Prophets were written around this time, and they demonstrate knowledge of the Law, but... how do I say this? The Prophets don't endorse the Law. They call for the covenant of the Law to be done away with, in favor of a New Covenant (Jer 31).

Meanwhile, the people left behind in Judah lost the Book of the Law entirely for two centuries. It was re-discovered during the reign of King Josiah (6th century BC), according to the Bible. At that time, Josiah initiated a reform that brought all of Judah into a strict adherence to the Law. The Law at this time was probably just Deuteronomy, because Exodus didn't exist yet, Leviticus was a separate handbook for priests, and the material that would later become Genesis was a bunch of diverse scrolls that hadn't been combined and chronologically ordered yet.

A century later, the exiles in Babylon and Persia would return to the Holy Land, rebuild the temple, and canonize the Pentateuch into something resembling what we see today.

So, short-story-made-long... the idea that the Oral Law was handed down from Moses until New Testament times isn't true. There wasn't an unbroken chain of people during that time. The entire thing was lost for two centuries!

The practice of memorizing and transmitting the Law orally probably starts with Ezra, in the 5th century BC, which makes sense because he's the one who put the Pentateuch together.
 
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NayborBear

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If GOD wanted the book of Enoch in the Bible we have today, it would be in there.
The ALL powerful ALL knowing GOD has the ability to influence His chosen holy men to include the books He wants & 66 it is :)
And THEN? there's THIS!:
Just to dethrone those that think/believe that if God wanted the book of Enoch to be included? It would have been! RIGHT?!!

WRONG!!!

Genesis 6:
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not ALWAYS strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

During the time of the "canonization?"
Which I believe was HEAVILY influenced by Constantine. There was MUCH (putting it more mildly than it actually was) conflict between Christians and pagans!
This book of Enoch (to put it bluntly) could NOT be included because Enoch didn't just go around simply calling a spade a spade?
HE CALLED 'EM OUT BY NAME!!! So ALL around him would not just KNOW of their treachery! They would ALSO be able to CALL 'EM OUT BY NAME!!

Which diametrically opposed Constantine's plans for "World Peace!"
So one's thinking/believing that politics DIDN'T play a heavy role in (at least) SOME of the records to be included or not? (see Gen. 6:3 above)
Are cruising in some luxury liner on a river in Egypt!
For the unlearned or Biblically illiterate ones?
The river in Egypt? DA-NILE! :vgood:

My hope to the OP of this thread?
Please :Ohpleze: STOP pryw to AI!!
 

NayborBear

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Origin of Evil: Enoch attributes the origin of sin to fallen angels (Watchers) interbreeding with humans, whereas the canonical Bible focuses on the fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis.
Well? One thing AI can't take into account are "slices of eternity past" where there was at least another "Heaven and Earth (everlasting) BEFORE the Genesis record/s.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth IS the High Priest of the Most High God after the order of Melchizedek!
Which is oh SO true!

Yet? He isn't the only priest of this order! And in time, others shall also come cognizant of this
Psalm 45:7 (speaking of the coming Jesus of Nazareth)
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
 

Heart2Soul

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Memorization of the entire Torah (or more commonly just the 613 Mitzvot of the Torah) is definitely an ancient Jewish practice. We should talk about the timing of that.

The Israelites of Moses' day installed a system of judges and clan leaders and tribal leaders to administrate justice. Those judges created the 613 Mitzvot (commandments).

The judges among the Jews in David's day definitely were memorizing the Mitzvot. We know because David writes about doing so himself in the Psalms. But they probably weren't doing this to pass down culture or history (the genre of history didn't exist yet), but rather as part of their administration of justice. Today we call this case law.

The Israelites and Jews apostatized under Solomon and his successors. The Bible tells us that the northern nation (Israel) completely abandoned God in favor of the Baals, until they were eventually destroyed by the Assyrians. Safe to say they weren't memorizing the Law.

In the southern nation (Judah), it gets a bit confusing. All the nobles (aka all the people who could read) were carried away to Babylon in the exile. The Prophets were written around this time, and they demonstrate knowledge of the Law, but... how do I say this? The Prophets don't endorse the Law. They call for the covenant of the Law to be done away with, in favor of a New Covenant (Jer 31).

Meanwhile, the people left behind in Judah lost the Book of the Law entirely for two centuries. It was re-discovered during the reign of King Josiah (6th century BC), according to the Bible. At that time, Josiah initiated a reform that brought all of Judah into a strict adherence to the Law. The Law at this time was probably just Deuteronomy, because Exodus didn't exist yet, Leviticus was a separate handbook for priests, and the material that would later become Genesis was a bunch of diverse scrolls that hadn't been combined and chronologically ordered yet.

A century later, the exiles in Babylon and Persia would return to the Holy Land, rebuild the temple, and canonize the Pentateuch into something resembling what we see today.

So, short-story-made-long... the idea that the Oral Law was handed down from Moses until New Testament times isn't true. There wasn't an unbroken chain of people during that time. The entire thing was lost for two centuries!

The practice of memorizing and transmitting the Law orally probably starts with Ezra, in the 5th century BC, which makes sense because he's the one who put the Pentateuch together.
Interesting study! I love learning new things about the history of the bible.