SETTLING THE FALSE THEORY OF REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY
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The English word “for ever” (or “forever”) means everlasting or eternal. It means something that never ends. It denotes endless, ceaseless, perpetual, undying, unbroken, unending, and interminable.
But was this exactly what God was promising Abraham in regard to the land of Canaan in Genesis 13:15? Is this literally what the Hebrew word means? Taking the English KJV translation at face value you might imagine this to mean that Abraham’s seed would possess the land of Canaan eternally (namely without end).
If one is to insist on this word referring to an unbroken uninterrupted unending duration (which is what the English word “for ever” means) then God broke His promise to Abraham’s seed. We would have to conclude that there is a question mark over the veracity of the Word of God. After all, history proves Abraham’s seed has not held its ancient land boundaries without end. Israel has been often removed from the land due to disobedience.
So, has God broken His Word?
We know God cannot lie or break His Word. Numbers 23:19 confirms: “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”
We can trust every promise in this Book.
Romans 3:4 states: “let God be true, but every man a liar.”
The veracity and fulfillment of every Word God speaks is beyond dispute. It will always happen.
Isaiah 46:9-11 makes clear, “My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure ... yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.”
We know Scripture never contradicts Scripture. God is not taken by surprise. Before God created Abraham, Israel or gave one promise He knew Israel would disobey. He knew they would be exiled from the land.
Consequently, He never gave Abraham a false promise and then went back on His word when man failed. It is manifest that there has been no unending possession of Palestine. So, we already have strong grounds to question a literal eternal fulfilment.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Talmud
Talmud (Hebrew for "study" or "learning") is a central, foundational text of Rabbinic Judaism, serving as the primary compilation of Jewish oral law, tradition, and debates
My statement
"Most postribbers are antisemetic."
Antisemitic
Antisemitic refers to prejudice, hatred, discrimination, or hostility directed at Jewish people,
Tell a postribber all about it.
Tell them the 144,000 are ETHNIC JEWS.
The antisemitism starts.
"Haha there are no Jews."
" They are all bred out and died out"
"Those people in Israel are not Jews."
"Look at the tribes, there are no tribes anymore"
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I pray for those in Israel who are in Christ, or who are seeking.
I do not pray for antichrists in Israel or anywhere else, who have chosen to deny Christ. 1 John 2:18;2:22;4:3 2 John 1:7
Here are the 144,000.
The Church of the Redeemed through all ages from beginning to end.
Immeasurably Grand and Glorious.
The Church and the 144,000
Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)
Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:
Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.
Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).
Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.
While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.
Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.
The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…
Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)
No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
What tribe are you of?
the 144,000 are firstfruits JEWS. As the bible clearly says.
You are claiming to be firstfruits?
The bible says JESUS IS THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE CHURCH.
So no, your blenderizing of Revelation is way way off.
You do realize changing the book of Revelation is forbidden?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
I don't need your misplaced configuring of a bible/world view.
That is your need.
Not mine
stevesonthebay
Active Member
I recall Paul referring back to Old Testament prophesies.
In Romans 9: 25-26 Paul quotes Hosea 2: 23 and 1:10 to explain how the Gentiles, who were not originally God's people, would be called "sons of the living God". As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved. And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.
Romans 11:26-29, citing Isaiah 59: 20-21; 27:9 and Jeremiah 31: 33-34 says,
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.’ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.irrevocable.
Romans 15: 9–12 refers to the OT to show that Gentiles were always intended to glorify God and hope in the Messiah
Psalm 18: 49: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name."
Deuteronomy 32: 43: "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
Isaiah 11: 10: "The root of Jesse will come... in him shall the Gentiles hope."
In Acts 13:47 Paul and Barnabas mention that they were commissioned to be a "light to the Gentiles" to bring salvation to the ends of the earth (Isaiah 49:6).
Paul quotes Deuteronomy 32:21 and Isaiah 65:1 in Romans 10:19–20 that God would make Israel jealous by reaching out to a nation that did not seek Him.
But I also think that part of the New Covenant is also referring to the restoration of the Isrealites to God in spirit and not just in the Old Testament worship.
I don't think the full meaning of Christs redemption will come until also there will be a awakening and reconciliation of the Jews to God in Christ. Not that all Jews will be the same and believe on Christ. There will still be the Orthodoxy and false teachings.
In some way the factions that teach Jewish Orthodixy are in some ways like the ancient tribes and other Jewish sects that came about by rejecting God and later Christ.
But the one great redemption and turn around is the Jews themselves. Which Jesus longed for. I think there at least has to be some sort of awakening of the Isrealites that will completely fullfill that all nations will come to Christ. This may even happen as the antiChrist sits on Christs throne. Perhaps because of.
In Romans 9: 25-26 Paul quotes Hosea 2: 23 and 1:10 to explain how the Gentiles, who were not originally God's people, would be called "sons of the living God". As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved. And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.
Romans 11:26-29, citing Isaiah 59: 20-21; 27:9 and Jeremiah 31: 33-34 says,
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.’ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.irrevocable.
Romans 15: 9–12 refers to the OT to show that Gentiles were always intended to glorify God and hope in the Messiah
Psalm 18: 49: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name."
Deuteronomy 32: 43: "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
Isaiah 11: 10: "The root of Jesse will come... in him shall the Gentiles hope."
In Acts 13:47 Paul and Barnabas mention that they were commissioned to be a "light to the Gentiles" to bring salvation to the ends of the earth (Isaiah 49:6).
Paul quotes Deuteronomy 32:21 and Isaiah 65:1 in Romans 10:19–20 that God would make Israel jealous by reaching out to a nation that did not seek Him.
But I also think that part of the New Covenant is also referring to the restoration of the Isrealites to God in spirit and not just in the Old Testament worship.
I don't think the full meaning of Christs redemption will come until also there will be a awakening and reconciliation of the Jews to God in Christ. Not that all Jews will be the same and believe on Christ. There will still be the Orthodoxy and false teachings.
In some way the factions that teach Jewish Orthodixy are in some ways like the ancient tribes and other Jewish sects that came about by rejecting God and later Christ.
But the one great redemption and turn around is the Jews themselves. Which Jesus longed for. I think there at least has to be some sort of awakening of the Isrealites that will completely fullfill that all nations will come to Christ. This may even happen as the antiChrist sits on Christs throne. Perhaps because of.
What Apostle Paul said in Romans 11:25-32 is the main hinge-point. God put that "spirit of stupor" upon them so The Gospel would also go to the Gentiles. And like Paul said, when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, that blindness will be removed, then they will be able to make their choice.
But what my subject of this Thread is about, is how some have coined the term 'Replacement Theology' to represent a false belief that Christ's Church replaced God's chosen Israel, just because once Jerusalem and the 2nd temple were destroyed with the majority of unbelieving Jews scattered, the early Church wrongly believed God was done with Israel. The next part is this...
The majority of the northern ten tribes of Israel, along with Gentiles, made up the majority of the founders of the early Christian Church in the Christian West. It fulfilled the Genesis 35 prophecy that Jacob's seed would become "a company of nations", and the Genesis 48 prophecy that Ephraim's seed would become "a multitude of nations", and that his brother Manasseh also would be "great". What that means is that God's true Israel directly involves Christ's Church, Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 even called it the "commonwealth of Israel" that the believing Gentiles were graffed into. Then the next part is...
... that when Jesus returns at His only future coming, His 2nd coming, He will bring all the saints with Him to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem to reign over all nations. And Jesus will there be king of Israel, His faithful elect Church reigning there with Him. And since that is written Bible prophecy, it strikes out Darby's false Dispensationalist theories about a separate Christian Church with Jesus, and an Israel of Jews only. This matter you mentioned yourself.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Calling it several names is meaningless when they both point to a rabbit trail.A simple question.
But unsurprisingly still too difficult for you to answer.
If you can not answer my 3 previous questions, that are beyond simple, and then accuse me of stupidity,....well that is really dumb.
Maybe you are unable to answer any easy questions?
Just too difficult for you?
Insert mocking imogie here.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Trolling me.
I report what is there.
( the things you dance around like a clown)
Go play jr.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
What a waste of sentences.
1) you have no clue as to what is meant in romans 9, 10, and 11.
No clue.
No clue, of the FUTURE REDEMPTION of the Jews.
Look at the components you leave out.
1) the time of the Gentiles completed
2) the fullness of the Gentiles.
3) the illustration in the book of Ruth...( no clue at all)
4) the PURPOSE of the 7 yr trib.(ahem..."JACOBS TROUBLE")
5) THE FACT that ONLY 144,000 are sealed (faceplant)
6 ) The fact, that they are ETHNIC jews.
7 ) the fact,that if they are ALREADY believers, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, (which is about the only thing you got right due to your "omission prism" blocking understanding), then heaven must be really confused, by resealing 144,000 of those believers ...( hello....already sealed)..
8)....and this is HUGE...look at your BIGGEST OMISSION of your reframed bible ...."FIRSTFUITS"
Now i wonder why you leave it out?
A MAJOR COMPONENT, conveniently MISSING.
9) you left out that ONLY 144,000 sealed saints escape the sting of the flying scorpions
You did all that "explaining away", of the bible for nothing. Tons of omission. Tons of it.
Hello...JESUS IS THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE CHURCH.
So in your made up deal of omission, you have reframed the church as firstfruits, and God resealing only 144,000 Christians, and God forgetting that Jesus is the firstfruits of the church.
Your doctrine is so inept and weak.
You, by your own modifications have heaven sealing already sealed Church members.
To top it off, you think God does not have 2 covenants, and he never intended romans 9, 10, and 11, to mean what it says.
If the bible is correct, your deal is so messed up, it is a invented travesty.
Nobody with respect for Gods word, would even begin to mangle it all up like that.
Citing inspired Scripture is a waste of sentences?
What other wisdom do you have for us today?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He thinks coherent arguments using scripture to back them up is a waste of sentences. And he responds to it with his normal incoherent gibberish. Someone can't be any more delusional than that.Citing inspired Scripture is a waste of sentences?
What other wisdom do you have for us today?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You slander post-tribs by saying they hate Jews. No, they do not. Just because someone has a different understanding of God's plans for the Jews than you do doesn't mean they are against the Jews. Post-tribs understand that God sent His Son to die for the sins of all Jews in order to provide salvation for them, so how is that a case of hating the Jewish people? I'm post-trib and want all people, including all Jews, to be saved. Does that mean I hate Jewish people?
Explain why the list of tribes in Revelation has differences from the list of tribes given in the Old Testament. Just because some people see that and understand there is a reason for that doesn't mean someone hates the Jews. Just because someone understands that scripture speaks of spiritual Israelites and Jews and that God's people are all believers, including Jewish and Gentile believers, doesn't mean that someone hates the Jews.
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