The Relationship Between Israel and the Church
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One but in two parts. The rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel.
@Trekson Doesn’t answer my question. Do you believe the scarlet beast in the wilderness is the same as the beast (lion, bear, leopard combo) that comes out the sea? Or do you think they are different beasts whose heads represent the same thing?
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There is one coming - and it is climactic. You have ducked around the literal climactic detail of the inspired text. You have yet to show 1 single text to support all the main tenets of Premil. It's because it enjoys no corroboration.
- Where else in Scripture is a thousand years mentioned after the second coming?
- Where else in Scripture is Jesus shown to be on a millennial earth?
- Where else in Scripture is the binding of Satan?
- Where else in Scripture are the 2 future resurrections?
- Where else in Scripture are the 2 future judgments?
- Where else in Scripture is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
Where does it teach that in God's Book? You make it up as you go. You have zero biblical support. You have zero corroboration for any of your views. Amil is supported by multiple Scripture for all its main tenets. Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration. Multiple strong and repeated Scriptures on each tenet of that position proves that doctrine. Let us discuss some of the water-tight support Amil enjoys for its understanding of Rev 20.
Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).
Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.
Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).
The wicked, to a man, are immediately destroyed at Christ’s return, as in Noah and Lot’s day (Joel 2:1-3, Joel 2:10-11, Isaiah 13:6-12, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 3:12, Luke 17:27-30, I Thessalonians 5:2-4, II Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 2:5-9, Revelation 19:17-21 and Revelation 20:9).
There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).
Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.
There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).
Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).
The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).
1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.
This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
More apartheid. The reality is there are only two peoples in this world – the righteous and the unrighteous; those "in Adam" (the 1st birth) and those "in Christ" (2nd birth).
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
All of them lol.
We know that the first Future coming of Christ happened when God said, Let there be Light.
Then there is another future coming when he is revealed as the Tree of Life.
Then there is many times Christ came and made himself known whether through Jacob or Moses.
The there is the time Christ walked as a man upon earth, probably not much unlike walking in the garden in the cool of the day.
All of these at one point was a future event.
What makes you believe that there is a final future coming?
There is a new heaven and a new earth you have to consider that God is in the process of creating.
How many times will Christ have future comings in that new world?
I believe Christs future comings and goings may never fully be known to man. But I have a feeling it's eternal.
Just thinking..
Hugs
There is no both. That is what you have been wrongly taught.
God has only one people. There is one shepherd and one fold. He made one man out of two. Dispies are trying to make 2 men out of 1. Those who accept Christ are born again, become part of the body of Christ and possess eternal life. Those who reject Him are of their father the devil, are under the wrath of God and go to hell.
Race means nothing today. Jews and Gentiles that accept Christ are of their Heavenly Father. Any other gospel is a false gospel.
- Jesus accused Christ-rejecting Israel of being of their “father the devil” (John 8:44).
- He said they were of “the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9).
- Paul the Apostle said they are enemies of God (Romans 11:28).
- John said that those who reject Christ as Messiah are of “antichrist” (I John 2:22-23 ) and are under “the wrath of God” (John 3:36).
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That is not germain to the point.
They are grafted into Abraham. Gentiles and Jews are both known as branches in Romans 11, therefore neither is the root. That belongs to Abraham.
??? Gentiles are grafted into Abraham, who is the father of us all.
The Bible calls us "one new man". Remember . . . in Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. It doesn't seem that you are recognizing this.
I have no idea how you are connecting the dots on this. Jesus was also the descendant of Jacob.
At the end of the day, Gentiles are never considered part of Israel unless they've proselytized to Judaism. Being born again makes you part of the body of Christ, in which is neither Greek nor Jew.
You need to understand that in Christ is neither Greek nor Jew. There is a reason I keep repeating this. We are never called the spiritual children of Jacob (Israel) while we are in fact called the children of Abraham.
I'm not sure why this is so problematic for you, but that's what the Bible says.
Much love!
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
That is absolute nonsense and shows you have absolutely no understanding of Galatians 3:16 and many other scriptures, nor of who Christ is.
Your faith is in the flesh of fallen human beings. In Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision (in the lfesh) matters - but a new creation.
In Christ is also since Christ. The old is dead and did not remain in the resurrection of Christ. You cannot have any part of the old - which is of the flesh - in Christ, who alone according to the flesh is the elect - and God's elect people a.k.a Israel are all in Christ. The rest have been cut off from Israel though they still call themselves Israel just because they are the flesh seed of Jacob, not knowing any better (apparently neither do you).
You don't yourself understand what you are talking about, and then you tell others who do understand, to understand.The branches grafted in are equally branches with them, and both have the same root. Since that root is God's election of Abraham and his seed and his seed is Christ, all branches are the seed of Abraham - just as Paul said.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Your conversation with me about this is over, but not my conversation with you about it.
Jesus:
"This is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matthew 26:28).
There's only one new covenant - it's made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah only:
"Indeed, a time is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them," says the LORD." (Jeremiah 31:31-32).
The Gentiles who believe in Jesus are BRANCHES grafted INTO the Olive tree, and are BRANCHES as much as the remnant of Jews:
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As he saith also in Hosea, "I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved" (Romans 9:22-27)
Paul mentions that remnant in Romans 11, saying the Gentiles are grafted in as branches (of the seed of the house of Israel) among them.
The seed (descendants of Abraham) are the branches of the Olive tree, and Jesus is THE BRANCH.
The root is the calling and the election of Abraham and His seed - who is Christ, who said, "Before Abraham was, I AM.".
We do not have to be genetically descended from the same seed as the Jews to become branches of the Olive tree which is the house of Israel and the house of Judah - with whom alone the New Covenant is made. The house of Israel who Hosea spoke about were cut off and ceased being a nation before God in 722 BC. They were exiled and scattered among the nations and their descendants intermarried with Gentiles in the nations. Yet Hosea prophesied that the house of Israel would be restored to God and be reunited with Judah with one King over them.
As he saith also in Hosea, "I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Thank you for the conversation, which is now over.
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DavidTaylor
Member
Peter at Pentecost, as thousands were being added to the church, explained to ALL ISRAEL, when they can believe and how their partial hardening can be removed.
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Acts 2:36
That unity comes in Christ. There is only one people of God. I showed you the biblical evidence. You rejected it. The old covenant is gone forever. I showed you the biblical evidence. You rejected it.
- Jesus told His Jewish disciples in John 10:14-16 that there were “other sheep … which are not of this fold” which would be brought into His fold and they would “be one fold, and one shepherd,” talking about the NT overwhelmingly Gentile Church.
- The Bible says we (the redeemed of all nations and ethnic groups) have been grafted into 'an Israeli tree' (Romans 9-11).
- The Bible says we who were once aliens from the "citizenship of Israel" have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). He said He would make one spiritual man out of “twain.”
- The Bible says that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16).
- The Bible says we are 'Jews' and we are "the circumcision" today (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11).
- The Bible says we are "the children of Abraham" (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today.
- The Bible says we now reside and abide in "Jerusalem" and "Mount Zion" (Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10).
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Exactly. We amils get falsely accused of spiritualizing literal scripture (well, some amils do, but most don't) when the reality is that we are the literalists, not premils. They don't take any of the verses you referenced literally like we do. And there are many more scriptures which support amill if taken literally as well (John 5:28-29, Matthew 28:18, John 6:40 combined with John 12:48, etc.).
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