Daniel 7:11 “the beast.”

[CTK]

In Daniel 7:11 he writes that the beast will be slain…..

Who is this beast?

When was this beast slain?

Is this one of the 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2?

Why is this (if it is) so relevant in this chapter?

 

[Jay Ross]

In Daniel 7:11 he writes that the beast will be slain…..

Who is this beast?

A wicked fallen angel who rebelled with Satan

When was this beast slain?

The fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12 will be slain in around 20 years from now.

Is this one of the 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2?

No, the fourth beast is not one of the kingdoms referenced in Daniel 2's statue prophecy.

Why is this (if it is) so relevant in this chapter?

The reference to this chapter during the time of the reformation fathers and linking the Daniel 2 statue prophecy to the Daniel 7 prophecy was to demonise the RCC and its pope so that the reformation fathers could forge a chasm between themselves and the RCC so that they could break away from the control of the Pope and the RCC.

 

[Davy]

Dan 7:7
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
KJV

Not Rome, because the "ten horns" are not mentioned until the time of the end of this world. This means this 4th beast belongs to the very end, and is linked to the beast of Revelation 13:1-10, and Revelation 17:7, 17:12, and 17:16.

It represents the FINAL beast kingdom that is to appear at the very end of this world, in the days of Christ's future return. It is busy forming up in today's world.

 

[CTK]

Dan 7:7
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
KJV

Not Rome, because the "ten horns" are not mentioned until the time of the end of this world. This means this 4th beast belongs to the very end, and is linked to the beast of Revelation 13:1-10, and Revelation 17:7, 17:12, and 17:16.

It represents the FINAL beast kingdom that is to appear at the very end of this world, in the days of Christ's future return. It is busy forming up in today's world.

Thanks, but who was the kingdom that was ruling at the time of the Messiah?

Was this the same kingdom that was identified in chapter 2 as the fourth kingdom?

Was not the third kingdom in chapter’s 2, 7, 8, and 11 Greece?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings CTK,

Who is this beast?

The fourth beast is the Roman Empire.

When was this beast slain?

This is still future.

Is this one of the 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2?

Yes, the fourth kingdom, the legs of iron.

Why is this (if it is) so relevant in this chapter?

Both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 give an overview of the kingdoms of men from Daniel's time until their overthrow and replacement by the Kingdom of God upon the earth when Jesus returns to reign from Jerusalem upon the Temple Throne of David for the 1000 years. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 give the same overall picture with additional detail, and the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 also includes the development of the Papacy and the Papal States, and the Fourth Beast is especially developed in the Book of Revelation.

Thanks, but who was the kingdom that was ruling at the time of the Messiah?
Was this the same kingdom that was identified in chapter 2 as the fourth kingdom?
Was not the third kingdom in chapter’s 2, 7, 8, and 11 Greece?

Yes.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Davy]

Thanks, but who was the kingdom that was ruling at the time of the Messiah?

Was this the same kingdom that was identified in chapter 2 as the fourth kingdom?

Was not the third kingdom in chapter’s 2, 7, 8, and 11 Greece?

Your answer is written in Daniel 2:44, that "fourth kingdom" is represented as the final beast kingdom at the end of this world...

Dan 2:40-44
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
KJV

Ask yourself when those "days of these kings" will be when God will set up a Kingdom which shall never be destroyed, and will break in pieces and consume all those kingdoms.

 

[CTK]

Greetings CTK,

The fourth beast is the Roman Empire.

This is still future.

Yes, the fourth kingdom, the legs of iron.

Both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 give an overview of the kingdoms of men from Daniel's time until their overthrow and replacement by the Kingdom of God upon the earth when Jesus returns to reign from Jerusalem upon the Temple Throne of David for the 1000 years. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 give the same overall picture with additional detail, and the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 also includes the development of the Papacy and the Papal States, and the Fourth Beast is especially developed in the Book of Revelation.

Yes.

Kind regards
Trevor

Very nice and thank you! The only question I would like to ask you is for you tell explain your thoughts on when the 4th beast was or will be slain.

Now, we agree the 4th beast kingdom is indeed Rome but wasn’t Rome slain? Thanks

 

[CTK]

Your answer is written in Daniel 2:44, that "fourth kingdom" is represented as the final beast kingdom at the end of this world...

Dan 2:40-44
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
KJV

Ask yourself when those "days of these kings" will be when God will set up a Kingdom which shall never be destroyed, and will break in pieces and consume all those kingdoms.

But you really did not answer the question. What kingdom was ruling at the time of the Messiah?

And you are correct, “in the days of these kings,” do in fact represent the kings mentioned in chapter’s 2 and 7 - in the “days of the kings” revealed in the metal man image.

It is during this 4 kingdom prophesy we will see the arrival of the Messiah and He will “set up” His earthly kingdom at the cross.

His kingdom will never be destroyed and will grow like a mountain until His return.

But the most important issue here is to once again ask you the identity of the 4th kingdom. It seems you are / maybe basing that answer solely on your thought that the 10 horns are future based….

So, for now, if you do not mind, return to chapter 2 and tell me who the 4th kingdom is and then we can move to chapter 7 when God takes those same 4 kingdoms but changes their symbols and identifies events that help us understand His prophetic plan.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again CTK,

Now, we agree the 4th beast kingdom is indeed Rome but wasn’t Rome slain?

The fourth beast was initially the Pagan Roman Empire, and this was replaced by the Corrupt Christian Empire under Constantine and the Fourth Kingdom underwent many changes and today is represented by Western Europe and the many different countries.

The only question I would like to ask you is for you tell explain your thoughts on when the 4th beast was or will be slain.

Daniel 2:44 indicates that it will be destroyed or replaced at the return of Jesus when Jesus sets up his Kingdom upon the earth. Daniel 7 and Revelation 17 give more specific detail as to why the people and territory of the fourth beast especially those under the influence of the Papacy receives greater judgement than those of the previous beasts. My personal hope is that the King of Denmark and Mary Queen of Denmark who is an Australian and is now a Lutheran will submit to Christ when he returns, while many of the ruling authorities of the mainly RCC countries will oppose Christ at his coming.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Marty fox]

In Daniel 7:11 he writes that the beast will be slain…..

Who is this beast?

When was this beast slain?

Is this one of the 4 kingdoms identified in chapter 2?

Why is this (if it is) so relevant in this chapter?

Hello brother,

I see the beast as a demonic being influencing Greece and it’s leaders mainly Antiochus Epehanies in the book of Daniel

This beast was slain when Greece was defeated by the Roman empire

Yes this beast is the fourth kingdom in chapter two

Do you mean chapter two or chapter four?

 

[CTK]

Greetings again CTK,

The fourth beast was initially the Pagan Roman Empire, and this was replaced by the Corrupt Christian Empire under Constantine and the Fourth Kingdom underwent many changes and today is represented by Western Europe and the many different countries.

Daniel 2:44 indicates that it will be destroyed or replaced at the return of Jesus when Jesus sets up his Kingdom upon the earth. Daniel 7 and Revelation 17 give more specific detail as to why the people and territory of the fourth beast especially those under the influence of the Papacy receives greater judgement than those of the previous beasts. My personal hope is that the King of Denmark and Mary Queen of Denmark who is an Australian and is now a Lutheran will submit to Christ when he returns, while many of the ruling authorities of the mainly RCC countries will oppose Christ at his coming.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thank you again. I find we are so close in our interpretations… nice to find!

But I would like to continue since we do have some different views (which is fine of course).

Regarding the 4th kingdom, you are indeed correct- pagan Rome is the 4th kingdom and was present at the time of the Messiah. They did not conquer Greece in the traditional manner but they did become the most dominant kingdom at the time. But I would like to ask if you might be willing to discuss chapter 2 before we return to chapter 7 and address the initial questions posed regarding 7:11.

I would ask that you might consider to view chapter 2 in a very different way (and this different way will also be found in chapter 7, 8, and 11).

God has set up chapter 2 in two separate categories:
Verses 31-35 represents the “Dream sequence” which provides the big picture of the prophecy in chapter 2.
Specifically, it gives us the 4 and ONLY 4 kingdoms that will be found not only in chapter 2 but throughout chapter 12. No more, no less. Thus, chapter 2 is God’s blueprint for His entire prophecy in Daniel (also, this will be the same for Revelation).

So, within these few verses God provides the 4 kingdoms (only) and then only 2 events or actions (remember, this is the big picture where everything in the later chapters will take place).

The two action are verses 34 and 35. Despite EVERYONE’S contention, 34 represents the first coming of Jesus while 35 represents His return (harvest).

Verse 34 represents the cross where He comes to separate the clay from the iron (ONLY). Not to destroy- and that is exactly what He did accomplish.

So, the 4th kingdom is NOT constructed of iron and clay. It is only constructed of iron, no different than the previous 3 METAL kingdoms. Iron kingdom of Rome - and Rome would never share their kingdom with anyone!!!!

So, who is the clay? The clay symbolizes the nation of Israel who are held captive within these few verses iron kingdom of Rome. The book of Daniel is not a history book, it is complete prophetic story of God’s plan of restoration for His people and His city and, of course, for all mankind. He is telling His story through these 4 kingdoms as His people move to / from Babylon back to Jerusalem over the many years.

I will stop here and await your response.

 

[CTK]

Hello brother,

I see the beast as a demonic being influencing Greece and it’s leaders mainly Antiochus Epehanies in the book of Daniel

This beast was slain when Greece was defeated by the Roman empire

Yes this beast is the fourth kingdom in chapter two

Do you mean chapter two or chapter four?

Thanks .. the 4th beast is the same in both chapters…

 

[Marty fox]

Thanks .. the 4th beast is the same in both chapters…

Yes they are

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again CTK,

But I would like to ask if you might be willing to discuss chapter 2 before we return to chapter 7 and address the initial questions posed regarding 7:11.
I would ask that you might consider to view chapter 2 in a very different way (and this different way will also be found in chapter 7, 8, and 11).

Yes, I will try to understand your perspective.

So, within these few verses God provides the 4 kingdoms (only) and then only 2 events or actions (remember, this is the big picture where everything in the later chapters will take place).
The two action are verses 34 and 35. Despite EVERYONE’S contention, 34 represents the first coming of Jesus while 35 represents His return (harvest).

Daniel 2:34–35 (KJV): 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
No, I believe that v34 and v35 is the sequence of events related to the second coming when the fourth kingdom is destroyed, replaced, by the Kingdom of God.

So, the 4th kingdom is NOT constructed of iron and clay.

It is only the feet that have clay and I understand that this speaks of the later absorption of the various Vandal tribes and this resulted in the subdivision of the Roman Empire or territory into 10 kingdoms or nations..

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CTK]

Greetings again CTK,

Yes, I will try to understand your perspective.

Daniel 2:34–35 (KJV): 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
No, I believe that v34 and v35 is the sequence of events related to the second coming when the fourth kingdom is destroyed, replaced, by the Kingdom of God.

It is only the feet that have clay and I understand that this speaks of the later absorption of the various Vandal tribes and this resulted in the subdivision of the Roman Empire or territory into 10 kingdoms or nations..

Kind regards
Trevor

I do understand that this is indeed one of the many interpretations found in the community today.

But I have found that unless 34 is interpreted as His first coming and He came, not to destroy, as many Jews expected (destroying Rome in a military like manner and freeing Israel from their oppression), but to spirituality separate the clay, His people, from Rome.

Now, I did not yet get to the second section of verses in chapter 2 - they are identified as “Interpretation Sequence” verse - verses 40-45.

In this section, they reveal what will happen AFTER the Stone (34) strikes the feet. Thus, these verse do not come after 35 but reveal what takes place between 34 and 35 (not chronological). This is exactly how chapter 7, 8, and 11 are also presented which is why Daniel has been, and continues to be so misinterpreted.

Almost everyone attempts to interpret these chapters in a strictly chronological manner, and because they do not follow the historical records, everyone contends they must not have taken place yet and are thus still to occur - even now.

Without treating 34 as His first coming, there is absolutely no way to interpret 40-45 (well 40 is easy, but 41-45 are not).

In these verses we find the separation of the “pottery clay” v. The “ceramic or miry clay.” The pottery clay represents the Jews who accepted Jesus as their Messiah while the ceramic clay represents those who rejected Him.
Let me know your thoughts and if you can see this… thanks

 

[Douggg]

The fourth beast is the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire in the end time has been manifested as the EU (European Union). The EEC (the European Economic Community), the predecessor of the EU (European Union), was created by the treaty of Rome in 1957.

 

[Davy]

But you really did not answer the question. What kingdom was ruling at the time of the Messiah?

I did answer your question. You are simply confusing that number "fourth" with the order of the kingdoms with the Roman empire as the 4th one. Because of that, some Bible scholars point to the concept of a 'revived Roman empire' with the final beast.

 

[Davy]

It is during this 4 kingdom prophesy we will see the arrival of the Messiah and He will “set up” His earthly kingdom at the cross.

His kingdom will never be destroyed and will grow like a mountain until His return.

No, that is trying to apply that Daniel 2:44 prophecy being only about Christ's 1st coming, when it is pointing to the very END of this world when those "ten kings" will manifest per Revelation 13 and Revelation 17. When Jesus comes to destroy it that will be the very end of this present world, and we are not there yet.

Christ's literal physical Kingdom did not come yet at the cross. He even said so Himself (John 18:36).

What is... here, that came at the cross, is His Kingdom of The Spirit through His many-membered body, His Church. That's why He said the Kingdom is "within you", because right now it is of The Spirit as we are "born again" of The Spirit.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again CTK,

This is exactly how chapter 7, 8, and 11 are also presented which is why Daniel has been, and continues to be so misinterpreted.
Almost everyone attempts to interpret these chapters in a strictly chronological manner, and because they do not follow the historical records, everyone contends they must not have taken place yet and are thus still to occur - even now.

I am sorry, but I cannot follow or accept your reasoning here. I have a fairly thorough understanding of Daniel 7 and 8 with a thorough assessment of the 1260 days and the 2300 evening/mornings, and I assume Daniel 11 is mostly fulfilled except I have a thorough assessment of Daniel 11:40-45. As such I may differ from those that consider ALL or MOST is future.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Davy]

But the most important issue here is to once again ask you the identity of the 4th kingdom. It seems you are / maybe basing that answer solely on your thought that the 10 horns are future based….

I am not going to stroke the doctrines of men you are wanting to accept about that Daniel 2 & 7 fourth kingdom. I will stay with what The Word of God says about it.

And God's Word shows the "ten horns" of that kingdom are "ten kings", and that they manifest concurrently for "one hour" with the beast, meaning the beast king.

Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV

We know for certain that above 14th verse cannot be about the time of Christ's 1st coming, because at His 1st coming He came meek as a Lamb to be sacrificed for the remission of sins of those who would believe on Him. Lord Jesus did not have war with His enemies at His 1st coming, as that war is a future event to occur at His 2nd coming per Revelation 19.

Daniel 7 reiterates the same... order of events about those "ten horns" appearing at the END of this world and Jesus destroys them at His 2nd coming...

Dan 7:7-14
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The "little horn" represents the beast king concept covered in the Revelation 17 Chapter, which is for the END of this world. He is the one those ten kings will have power with for "one hour" at the end, as they will give their power to him.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.

These above and next verses cover the time when those ten horns are destroyed by Christ's future coming, and God takes power over all the earth establishing His literal physical Kingdom upon the earth with Jesus ruling the nations with His "rod of iron".

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

The above verse is an actual reference to Revelation 20 at the time right after Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the nations with His "rod of iron." That is when the books are opened, and the nations are judged out of those books.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Like Revelation 13 & 17 reveals, the idea of the 'beast' of Revelation is in two concepts, a beast kingdom, and its beast king. The above is pointing to the "little horn" as the beast king at the END that will be slain, his body destroyed and given to the flame, i.e. cast into the future "lake of fire" at the end of Revelation 20.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

The above verse backs up in time a little bit, and happens at the start of Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the wicked. Those are the kings of Isaiah 24:21-22 that are cast into the pit along with Satan at Christ's coming, and are visited after many days (i.e., after the Millennium).

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
KJV

The above establishing of God's Kingdom is about Christ's 2nd coming, NOT the cross.