Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[Trekson]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

 

[rebuilder 454]

At catholic.com they give a list of 9 or 10 church fathers that believed in transubstantiation of the bread and wine

In foxes book of martyrs the catholics burned Christians for not worshipping the bread and wine.

The church fathers also falsely believed in the erroneous post trib rapture.
Irenaous wrote against heresies because so much error was present.
The catholics hail him as supporting their bread deity deal.

Men, with limited revelation getting things wrong, end times dynamics included..

 

[Zao is life]

Men, with limited revelation getting things wrong, end times dynamics included..

You can safely include yourself in that list. The Lord will know you did not include yourself in that list without warrant.

 

[SavedInHim]

At catholic.com they give a list of 9 or 10 church fathers that believed in transubstantiation of the bread and wine

In foxes book of martyrs the catholics burned Christians for not worshipping the bread and wine.

The church fathers also falsely believed in the erroneous post trib rapture.
Irenaous wrote against heresies because so much error was present.
The catholics hail him as supporting their bread deity deal.

Men, with limited revelation getting things wrong, end times dynamics included..

Depends on which "fathers" you're talking about. Those that Trekson listed are before the time when Rome took over. I have confidence in them.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Depends on which "fathers" you're talking about. Those that Trekson listed are before the time when Rome took over. I have confidence in them.

All of those listed were before Rome took over.
Doctrine is not dependant on anyone's infallibility.
Hundreds of mens trusted Doctrines have been ruined by the bible.
Those you trust is what birthed catholicism.
That is why the catholics also place them just under God himself, and justify their falsehoods.
Peter was in error before he was straightened out.
Paul was in error before he was straightened out.
The church fathers were in error concerning the rapture.
Men with limited revelation, now continuing their false assumptions through unwise modern men.
Trusting men over the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Tell me it ain't so.
Today, at this late hour, pushing aside the bible, to place men, and their error , ahead of it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

QUOTE
"Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively."

Ahem....so does the pretrib rapture doctrine.

How ridiculous to think he first appears anywhere except the start of the trib.
But it gets worse, because he appears to anyone with an ounce of discernment BEFORE he ever takes power .

Thanks for that affirmation that even those flawed men pointed to a pretrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

QUOTE
"Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110."

Yes the PRETRIB rapture teaches EXACTLY THAT.

TY for another pretrib rapture confirmation.

 

[SavedInHim]

All of those listed were before Rome took over.
Doctrine is not dependant on anyone's infallibility.
Hundreds of mens trusted Doctrines have been ruined by the bible.
Those you trust is what birthed catholicism.
That is why the catholics also place them just under God himself, and justify their falsehoods.
Peter was in error before he was straightened out.
Paul was in error before he was straightened out.
The church fathers were in error concerning the rapture.
Men with limited revelation, now continuing their false assumptions through unwise modern men.
Trusting men over the bible.

You don't seem to know or understand history. You're spouting nonsense.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

QUOTE
"The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

....then he should clarify that the AC kills ALL REFUSING THE MARK, and it says in Rev "power is given The AC to overcome the saints."
....so the "enduring to the end" is those left behind ones beheaded.
No postrib rapture in the bible, as Jesus taught a pretrib rapture.

So, again, trusting conjecture of dead men is dangerous.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You don't seem to know or understand history. You're spouting nonsense.

Trolling with false claims about me is spouting nonsense.

I am reporting what is there

You know, what you misrepresented.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

QUOTE
"Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli"

He got most of it right in his commentary

I guess if we allow for his limited revelation we can give him a B-.

But then again, him referring to "the oppression of the time of the AC," can mean "at the start of the trib" or even be looking forward to the future acts of the AC. (hmmmm...a pretrib rapture)

 

[Trekson]

QUOTE
"Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively."

Ahem....so does the pretrib rapture doctrine.

How ridiculous to think he first appears anywhere except the start of the trib.
But it gets worse, because he appears to anyone with an ounce of discernment BEFORE he ever takes power .

Thanks for that affirmation that even those flawed men pointed to a pretrib rapture.

You have to really stretch it to find pretrib there! I don't think it ridiculous at all. He needs time to build his rep, so to speak. He's not going to pop up out of nowhere and say Hi. I'm your messiah, worship me! He'll be on the scene for a while before the 70th week starts.

 

[Trekson]

QUOTE
"Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110."

Yes the PRETRIB rapture teaches EXACTLY THAT.

TY for another pretrib rapture confirmation.

The problem here is that there is no such group as "trib" saints. They will be the "still here" church!

 

[Trekson]

QUOTE
"Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli"

He got most of it right in his commentary

I guess if we allow for his limited revelation we can give him a B-.

But then again, him referring to "the oppression of the time of the AC," can mean "at the start of the trib" or even be looking forward to the future acts of the AC. (hmmmm...a pretrib rapture)

Of all the rapture theories out there, pretrib has the least scriptural context to it, barely any as a matter of fact and I used to be pretrib.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You have to really stretch it to find pretrib there! I don't think it ridiculous at all. He needs time to build his rep, so to speak. He's not going to pop up out of nowhere and say Hi. I'm your messiah, worship me! He'll be on the scene for a while before the 70th week starts.

Not saying it is.
I am saying we also believe that passage.
I am not the one DEPENDING on other men's doctrine.

Funny how you are posting verses that both sides use , then thinking you did something

I know your doctrine.
You do not know mine.
Si you find a verse that can make either position, and think you actually did something.
Again, since you do not know the pretrib doctrine, you are batting the air.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Of all the rapture theories out there, pretrib has the least scriptural context to it, barely any as a matter of fact and I used to be pretrib.

As a matter of fact there are several points you think you make, and fail, because YOU DO NOT KNOW the pretrib rapture doctrine.

If you get 100 % Honest, and cast down all the rabbit trails, grsb a bible, and debate honestly, I can defend the pretrib rapture doctrine quite handily

We can start by you producing a single postrib rapture verse

Go ahead post one.
It will be a first.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The problem here is that there is no such group as "trib" saints. They will be the "still here" church!

The Jews, in Rev 14, are gathered ( raptured DURING the trib)
In order for 1 these 4 to be true, the dead in christ must rise before that.

So you are dead wrong.
Rev 14 in your doctrine.
Show it to me.
You know for a fact it is missing.
Show me how you change the components.
Ever component is changed in Rev 14 by your top colleagues.
....a book it is forbidden to change.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As a matter of fact there are several points you think you make, and fail, because YOU DO NOT KNOW the pretrib rapture doctrine.

If you get 100 % Honest, and cast down all the rabbit trails, grsb a bible, and debate honestly, I can defend the pretrib rapture doctrine quite handily

How about you actually try to do that then instead of just rambling, as usual? Make a coherent argument using scripture to back up you pretrib rapture theory. Let's see it. Enough talk from you. Back up your claims with scripture.

We can start by you producing a single postrib rapture verse

Go ahead post one.
It will be a first.

He can start with Matthew 24:29-31 or Mark 13:24-27 and go from there.

Post a pre-trb rapture verse.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You have to really stretch it to find pretrib there! I don't think it ridiculous at all. He needs time to build his rep, so to speak. He's not going to pop up out of nowhere and say Hi. I'm your messiah, worship me! He'll be on the scene for a while before the 70th week starts.

Huh ?

It is a well known verse.
All your colleagues use it.

It is comical once I get them to actually read what it says.
I says the man of sin is REVEALED before the rapture.
That verse and.statement are in fact PRETRIB RAPTURE.
HE...THE AC....IS REVEALED , THEN THE RAPTURE.

Hello, your doctrine that your teachers promote, use a PRETRIB RAPTURE concept, and are OBLIVIOUS TO IT.

Play it out.
You are actually thinking the AC is revealed postrib?

When was Obama revealed?
After 8 years in office?

See what it says.
Honestly read what it says.

And I still wait for some postrib rapture verse.
Still waiting