Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[Randy Kluth]

You have to really stretch it to find pretrib there! I don't think it ridiculous at all. He needs time to build his rep, so to speak. He's not going to pop up out of nowhere and say Hi. I'm your messiah, worship me! He'll be on the scene for a while before the 70th week starts.

Daniel's 70th week was fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Jesus, and its prophecy was completely bookended and closed by 70 AD. It makes no sense to separate 69 Weeks and a 70th Week and still call the colleciton "70 Weeks." They are either contiguous or they don't belong together at all.

 

[Trekson]

Daniel's 70th week was fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Jesus, and its prophecy was completely bookended and closed by 70 AD. It makes no sense to separate 69 Weeks and a 70th Week and still call the colleciton "70 Weeks." They are either contiguous or they don't belong together at all.

God can divide them anyway he wants, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, one week. No gap=no church. In the linear reading of Dan. 9:25-27, the gap is right there in plain sight. The 70 weeks were for Israel to fulfill the goals of Dan. 9:24. Christ died on the last day of the 69th week. God's plans don't fail. When the 70th week comes most of unfulfilled prophecy will begin to be fulfilled. 70ad fulfilled less than a handful of prophecies, the vast majority awaits fulfillment. The bible contains several prophecies dealing w/ the physical and spiritual restoration of the nation of Israel in the latter days leading to the millennial era.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What Paul is actually teaching in 2 Thes 2 is that the coming of the Lord for the Chuch takes place *both* after the revelation of Antichrist and *at* the destruction of Antichrist. That is, Paul makes the assumption that both are the same thing, both the revelation of Antichrist and the destruction of Antichrist.

Obviously, Antichrist has to be revealed first before he is destroyed. But Paul is stating both events as one to show Christians that they must 1st endure the Antichrist before arriving at his destruction, when Christ returns. Therefore, Christ cannot return, Paul argues, before Antichrist is revealed because Christians are warned to endure antichristianity in the present age, including Antichrist at the end of the age.

Read it for yourself in an unjaded way...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Pretrib rapture doctrine teaches in 100% harmony with your verse

We see it vividly that The AC is revealed at the pretrib rapture, and that at the coming on white horses he is destroyed .

3 comings according to the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Get you facts straight, "not" post trib, post-persecution. When the a/c is "revealed" is when there will be no doubt because by the time he is revealed, is when he sits in the Temple of God. By this time the 70th week (the trib) is at least half over.

Not even close
Stick eith what is written.
You are making no sense.
It is like you are trying to say; "Obama was nit revealed before he took power, in fact he was only revealed when he entered his second term because that's when the duped people saw him for who he was."

Ridiculous

Anyone with an ounce of discernment will see the AC for who he is....way before he desecrates the temple.

....way before the pretrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I used to be Pretrib too, until I memorized 2 Thessalonians.

Try and make a "one coming" honestly fit the bible.
I used to be postrib till I read the Bible.
The bible destroys any hope of a postrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What Paul is actually teaching in 2 Thes 2 is that the coming of the Lord for the Chuch takes place *both* after the revelation of Antichrist and *at* the destruction of Antichrist. That is, Paul makes the assumption that both are the same thing, both the revelation of Antichrist and the destruction of Antichrist.

Obviously, Antichrist has to be revealed first before he is destroyed. But Paul is stating both events as one to show Christians that they must 1st endure the Antichrist before arriving at his destruction, when Christ returns. Therefore, Christ cannot return, Paul argues, before Antichrist is revealed because Christians are warned to endure antichristianity in the present age, including Antichrist at the end of the age.

Read it for yourself in an unjaded way...

2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Thank you for pointing out that the AC is REVEALED and not in power at the rapture

And yes it is a no brainer and clear he is destroyed right before the mil, at the second coming, on white horses.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I know it very well and reject it as a 'false" doctrine.

No you do not.
You are guessing.
On the other hand I have sat under hours of postrib talking points.
No contest.
I know your doctrine well.
You THINK you know the pretrib doctrine, but misrepresent it.

The pretrib doctrine destroys postrib rapture workbook easily.

You guys can not unpack;
rev 14:14
The 144,000
The virgin parable
The 3 comings.

....all must be changed.
You guys actually change the bible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God can divide them anyway he wants, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, one week. No gap=no church. In the linear reading of Dan. 9:25-27, the gap is right there in plain sight. The 70 weeks were for Israel to fulfill the goals of Dan. 9:24. Christ died on the last day of the 69th week.

Why do you keep blatantly contradicting scripture? Do you have no conscience?

Daniel 9:26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

It says the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 69th week (after the 62 weeks which follow the first 7 weeks), not on the last day of the 69th week. Why are you making up your own definitions for words just to make scripture say what you want it to say? That is shameful and unacceptable! There is no indication of a gap anywhere in the 70 weeks. You have to force that into the text to make it say what you want it to say. Why do you have such disrespect for the word of God?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No you do not.
You are guessing.
On the other hand I have sat under hours of postrib talking points.
No contest.
I know your doctrine well.
You THINK you know the pretrib doctrine, but misrepresent it.

The pretrib doctrine destroys postrib rapture workbook easily.

You guys can not unpack;
rev 14:14
The 144,000
The virgin parable
The 3 comings.

....all must be changed.
You guys actually change the bible.

How about YOU unpack those things instead of just rambling on and on without showing how those passages supposedly support your view?

 

[covenantee]

Daniel's 70th week was fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Jesus, and its prophecy was completely bookended and closed by 70 AD. It makes no sense to separate 69 Weeks and a 70th Week and still call the colleciton "70 Weeks." They are either contiguous or they don't belong together at all.

Absolutely true. Daniel declares, "Seventy weeks are determined", but their 70th week is decapitated, orphaned, and completely undetermined.

It has nothing to do with Daniel's weeks.

 

[Trekson]

Not even close
Stick eith what is written.
You are making no sense.
It is like you are trying to say; "Obama was nit revealed before he took power, in fact he was only revealed when he entered his second term because that's when the duped people saw him for who he was."

Ridiculous

Anyone with an ounce of discernment will see the AC for who he is....way before he desecrates the temple.

....way before the pretrib rapture.

I actually think he will arrive similar to Obama. He had barely said or done anything, he was just a community organizer running for president, yet well before he was elected he had an 80% global approval rating!!! Why???

 

[Trekson]

No you do not.
You are guessing.
On the other hand I have sat under hours of postrib talking points.
No contest.
I know your doctrine well.
You THINK you know the pretrib doctrine, but misrepresent it.

The pretrib doctrine destroys postrib rapture workbook easily.

You guys can not unpack;
rev 14:14
The 144,000
The virgin parable
The 3 comings.

....all must be changed.
You guys actually change the bible.

Again I'm not post trib, but if you want to take on a couple of topics at a time, I'm game.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Again I'm not post trib, but if you want to take on a couple of topics at a time, I'm game.

Post wrath?
Pretrib?
A mil?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I actually think he will arrive similar to Obama. He had barely said or done anything, he was just a community organizer running for president, yet well before he was elected he had an 80% global approval rating!!! Why???

America failing the IQ test.
They went in, took the test, left discernment at home and failed.

 

[Trekson]

Post wrath?
Pretrib?
A mil?

post-persecution.

 

[Trekson]

America failing the IQ test.
They went in, took the test, left discernment at home and failed.

It wasn't just in America.

 

[covenantee]

God can divide them anyway he wants, 7 weeks, 62 weeks, one week. No gap=no church. In the linear reading of Dan. 9:25-27, the gap is right there in plain sight. The 70 weeks were for Israel to fulfill the goals of Dan. 9:24. Christ died on the last day of the 69th week. God's plans don't fail. When the 70th week comes most of unfulfilled prophecy will begin to be fulfilled. 70ad fulfilled less than a handful of prophecies, the vast majority awaits fulfillment. The bible contains several prophecies dealing w/ the physical and spiritual restoration of the nation of Israel in the latter days leading to the millennial era.

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Daniel was a prophet. Therefore, there were things concerning Jesus, written by Daniel the prophet, which Jesus had fulfilled.
What things do you think those were?
Need a hint?

In case you still don't know, Jesus left verse 25 for you.

 

[ewq1938]

Again I'm not post trib, but if you want to take on a couple of topics at a time, I'm game.

Does the rapture happen after the trib has ended or during it?

 

[Trekson]

Does the rapture happen after the trib has ended or during it?

The "trib", as a 7 yr. event is a man made concept that the bible doesn't actually talk about. What we do have is the 70th week. Because of the unfortunate handle whenever the phrase "post-trib is used, folks automatically think post 70th week. That's why I call myself post-persecution because the GT is less than 1260 days. It will be shortened by Christ, imo, via the rapture and the church is next seen in heaven at Rev. 7:9-14. Time wise that puts it between the half point but prior to Armageddon.

 

[WPM]

No you do not.
You are guessing.
On the other hand I have sat under hours of postrib talking points.
No contest.
I know your doctrine well.
You THINK you know the pretrib doctrine, but misrepresent it.

The pretrib doctrine destroys postrib rapture workbook easily.

You guys can not unpack;
rev 14:14
The 144,000
The virgin parable
The 3 comings.

....all must be changed.
You guys actually change the bible.

LOL. Really? How about being the first Pretribber online to give us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 yr trib followed by a 3rd coming?

I will not hold my breath.

It is a Jesuit invention.