The interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 -in proper context and theme

[JustMe]

The interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 - in conformance with both the local and outer context drawn for other scripture.

Paul’s letter to the church in Colossae, written to counteract false teachings that were undermining the supremacy and sufficiency of Yeshua the Messiah. The Colossian believers were being drawn toward a syncretistic mix of Jewish legalism, pagan mysticism, and angel worship—ideas that placed created beings or spiritual intermediaries on par with Christ. Paul responds with a powerful Christological hymn (likely an early Christian creed) to reassert Christ’s absolute preeminence as the founder of the new creation of, and for men.

Paul's theme here is about a new spiritual creation of man in Christ - the Church- 2 Cor 5:17-20 and Yeshua the Messiah is the firstborn and head of this new creation.

(2Co 5:17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things are passed away, behold, all things have become new.
(2Co 5:18) But all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19) That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 8:29 - " For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many other children. "

Gal 6:15 - " For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything. What counts is being a new creation."

The Interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 affirms Yeshua as the preeminent human Messiah and agent of God’s redemptive plan, not as a preexistent divine being. The creation language in verse 16 refers not to the physical creation of the universe, but to the spiritual creation of the Church and the new creation in believers.

"All things were created through him" (Col 1:16): this is referring to the new creation in Christ—specifically, the Church formed from Jew/Judahite and other outside nations (Eph 2:15), the "new man" (Eph 4:24), and the renewal of individual believers (2 Cor 5:17). The Greek word ektisthē (created) refers to actual creation, not arrangement, and is used throughout Scripture to denote God’s physical creation (e.g., Gen 1:1, Rev 10:6), but in Colossians, it is contextually tied to Christ’s role in redemption, not cosmogony. Paul does not suddenly reopen the discussion of the old Genesis experience here, and then for what purpose? This is about the new Genesis or new creation of the new man through Christ as the head of this creation by his resurrection to immortality.

"In him" (en autō): the preposition en (in) in Col 1:16 should be understood as "in intention" or "because of him", not "by him." or even not "through him" who has no independent power apart for his Father, his God. Scholars like James Dunn and F.F. Bruce, they suggest Paul speaks of God’s plan being centered on Christ before creation (Eph 1:4). Thus, creation was planned in view of Christ, not executed through him.

"Firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15): this as a title of honor and preeminence, not literal preexistence. It echoes Israel’s designation as God’s firstborn (Ex 4:22), meaning Christ is the foremost among God’s creation, especially in his role as the resurrected head of the Church.

"He is before all things" (Col 1:17): This is seen as a statement of Christ’s priority in God’s redemptive plan, not ontological preexistence. His supremacy is established through resurrection, to immortality, not eternity.

"God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in him" (Col 1:19): this is God bestowing divine authority and spiritual fullness upon Christ, not as a statement of divine essence. The same phrase in Ephesians 3:19 refers to believers receiving God’s fullness through the Spirit—showing that "fullness" does not imply divinity.

"Beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14): this verse confirms Christ’s role as the first to be raised to immortality, not the creator. He is the firstborn from the dead, not the Creator.

In summary, Colossians 1 is a high Christology rooted in God’s plan, not in Christ’s divinity or preexistence. Paul’s language is polemical against Gnosticism—affirming Christ’s real humanity and role in salvation—while maintaining strict monotheism, with God the Father as the sole Creator (Isa 44:24).

Ref John 11:25, Romans 8:29, 1 Cor 15:20, 23, 2 Cor 5, Col 3:9, Heb 1:4-5 as related to Col 1:15-20

 

[Trekson]

The interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 - in conformance with both the local and outer context drawn for other scripture.

Paul’s letter to the church in Colossae, written to counteract false teachings that were undermining the supremacy and sufficiency of Yeshua the Messiah. The Colossian believers were being drawn toward a syncretistic mix of Jewish legalism, pagan mysticism, and angel worship—ideas that placed created beings or spiritual intermediaries on par with Christ. Paul responds with a powerful Christological hymn (likely an early Christian creed) to reassert Christ’s absolute preeminence as the founder of the new creation of, and for men.

Paul's theme here is about a new spiritual creation of man in Christ - the Church- 2 Cor 5:17-20 and Yeshua the Messiah is the firstborn and head of this new creation.

(2Co 5:17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things are passed away, behold, all things have become new.
(2Co 5:18) But all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19) That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 8:29 - " For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many other children. "

Gal 6:15 - " For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything. What counts is being a new creation."

The Interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 affirms Yeshua as the preeminent human Messiah and agent of God’s redemptive plan, not as a preexistent divine being. The creation language in verse 16 refers not to the physical creation of the universe, but to the spiritual creation of the Church and the new creation in believers.

"All things were created through him" (Col 1:16): this is referring to the new creation in Christ—specifically, the Church formed from Jew/Judahite and other outside nations (Eph 2:15), the "new man" (Eph 4:24), and the renewal of individual believers (2 Cor 5:17). The Greek word ektisthē (created) refers to actual creation, not arrangement, and is used throughout Scripture to denote God’s physical creation (e.g., Gen 1:1, Rev 10:6), but in Colossians, it is contextually tied to Christ’s role in redemption, not cosmogony. Paul does not suddenly reopen the discussion of the old Genesis experience here, and then for what purpose? This is about the new Genesis or new creation of the new man through Christ as the head of this creation by his resurrection to immortality.

"In him" (en autō): the preposition en (in) in Col 1:16 should be understood as "in intention" or "because of him", not "by him." or even not "through him" who has no independent power apart for his Father, his God. Scholars like James Dunn and F.F. Bruce, they suggest Paul speaks of God’s plan being centered on Christ before creation (Eph 1:4). Thus, creation was planned in view of Christ, not executed through him.

"Firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15): this as a title of honor and preeminence, not literal preexistence. It echoes Israel’s designation as God’s firstborn (Ex 4:22), meaning Christ is the foremost among God’s creation, especially in his role as the resurrected head of the Church.

"He is before all things" (Col 1:17): This is seen as a statement of Christ’s priority in God’s redemptive plan, not ontological preexistence. His supremacy is established through resurrection, to immortality, not eternity.

"God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in him" (Col 1:19): this is God bestowing divine authority and spiritual fullness upon Christ, not as a statement of divine essence. The same phrase in Ephesians 3:19 refers to believers receiving God’s fullness through the Spirit—showing that "fullness" does not imply divinity.

"Beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14): this verse confirms Christ’s role as the first to be raised to immortality, not the creator. He is the firstborn from the dead, not the Creator.

In summary, Colossians 1 is a high Christology rooted in God’s plan, not in Christ’s divinity or preexistence. Paul’s language is polemical against Gnosticism—affirming Christ’s real humanity and role in salvation—while maintaining strict monotheism, with God the Father as the sole Creator (Isa 44:24).

Ref John 11:25, Romans 8:29, 1 Cor 15:20, 23, 2 Cor 5, Col 3:9, Heb 1:4-5 as related to Col 1:15-20

Well, no wonder you didn't get any replies, there's not an ounce of truth to this theology. John 1:1-3 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." Jesus us the Word, this proves preexistence!

 

[JustMe]

Well, no wonder you didn't get any replies, there's not an ounce of truth to this theology. John 1:1-3 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." Jesus us the Word, this proves preexistence!

So can you stay on subject and respond to the passage of scripture of the thread or do you have a habit of automatically going off course to some other subject because you cannot comment on subject post for some reason? I can take a real good look at your John 1:1-3 later. There's no rush right? And I suspect you will not like my answer on that passage of scripture either as you will not see any extreme bias, and specific hallmarks of your predetermined belief system embedded INTO it.

 

[Trekson]

So can you stay on subject and respond to the passage of scripture of the thread or do you have a habit of automatically going off course to some other subject because you cannot comment on subject post for some reason? I can take a real good look at your John 1:1-3 later. There's no rush right? And I suspect you will not like my answer on that passage of scripture either as you will not see any extreme bias, and specific hallmarks of your predetermined belief system embedded INTO it.

If you want to consider as predetermined you would be correct because it was something I learned in Sunday School over 60 yrs. ago. There was nothing to respond to about Col. because it says the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

 

[JustMe]

If you want to consider as predetermined you would be correct because it was something I learned in Sunday School over 60 yrs. ago. There was nothing to respond to about Col. because it says the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

A great non-answer that says zilch.

Have a great week

 

[Trekson]

A great non-answer that says zilch.

Have a great week

What can I say, the topic was quite outlandish

 

[Brakelite]

We can read Colossians according to our predetermined theological school, or we can understand it as it reads, and in harmony with the rest of scripture. @Trekson didn't change the subject @JustMe , but simply gave it clarity. Scripture interprets scripture.
As for your determined denial of Christ's preexistence, may I suggest you think a little deeper? Take the following for example. The best known verse in scripture, yet i guarantee you will understand it differently from me...

“16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. ”
John 3:16-17 KJV


Personally, I think that because the scripture, regardless whether Jesus said these words or John, both were holy Spirit inspired and therefore Truth, says God sent His Only begotten Son into the world, then I am of a mind that God had a Son to send. Is that unreasonable?

 

[JustMe]

We can read Colossians according to our predetermined theological school, or we can understand it as it reads, and in harmony with the rest of scripture. @Trekson didn't change the subject @JustMe , but simply gave it clarity. Scripture interprets scripture.
As for your determined denial of Christ's preexistence, may I suggest you think a little deeper? Take the following for example. The best known verse in scripture, yet i guarantee you will understand it differently from me...

“16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. ”
John 3:16-17 KJV


Personally, I think that because the scripture, regardless whether Jesus said these words or John, both were holy Spirit inspired and therefore Truth, says God sent His Only begotten Son into the world, then I am of a mind that God had a Son to send. Is that unreasonable?

I believe you are trying to say that the word 'sent' in John 3:17 proves Yeshua's pre-existence. And if this is the case you would be wrong even as the casual observer would read the verse. Need I go further and explain myself or do you want the opportunity to explain it in more clarity? I give you the choice.

 

[Brakelite]

I believe you are trying to say that the word 'sent' in John 3:17 proves Yeshua's pre-existence. And if this is the case you would be wrong even as the casual observer would read the verse. Need I go further and explain myself or do you want the opportunity to explain it in more clarity? I give you the choice.

You've already botched the passage in Colossians that refers to Christ as the Creator, you will do the same with Hebrews 1:2,8 , with John's gospel and letters, all of which reference the Son of God as Creator, and you will do the same with John 3:16 regarding His preexistence. Nevertheless, let us see what mental gymnastics you must put yourself through to convince us these scriptures do not say what is written.

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. ”
2 Corinthians 8:9 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. ”
Zechariah 9:9 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. ”
John 18:36 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. ”
Hebrews 2:6-7, 14-18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

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“8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ”
Romans 5:8-11 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ”
Romans 8:3-4 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ”
Philippians 2:5-11 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. ”
1 John 4:1-3 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

 

[Davy]

The Interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 affirms Yeshua as the preeminent human Messiah and agent of God’s redemptive plan, not as a preexistent divine being. The creation language in verse 16 refers not to the physical creation of the universe, but to the spiritual creation of the Church and the new creation in believers.

Dang, the SDA and JW cult crowd again! Wake up administrators, can't you see they are against the Biblical fact that they are against Jesus of Nazareth as "Emmanuel", "God with us," from Matthew 1:23?

The 1 Colossians 1:15-20 Scripture shows beyond all... doubt... that Jesus Christ is God.


Col 1:15-20
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Lord Jesus Christ is the "image of the invisible God". How does one really... get around that idea with just the idea that Jesus is only a 'human' form REPRESENTATIVE of God? No, Apostle John said one of the ways to identity an antichrist is how those deny the fact that God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ (1 John 2:22). Jesus' Name "Emmanuel", which means, "God with us", confirms that fact also.

Those who work against the fact that Jesus is God The Son simply don't understand how they are being deceived by Satan and his host of antichrist workers upon this earth.

Does that word "firstborn" confuse you, and seem to point those deceivers as being correct? No, of course not, because the idea of Jesus Christ being the Only Begotten Son is specifically about God having been born in the flesh to die on the cross, and that it was God The Son only... who did that. Thus the idea of Jesus as the "firstborn" is in relation to His status as God come in the flesh to die on the cross. It never meant Jesus as The Son ever stopped being DIVINE and part of the Triune Godhead of God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.

16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him:

Revelation 4:11 tells us for God's pleasure were all things created.

17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

Does that sound only like Jesus was just a 'human' flesh man, and that's all? What idiot could claim that's all Lord Jesus is with His status like the above, which ONLY can point to GOD HIMSELF?

18 And He is the head of the body, the church: Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
KJV

Obviously, the JEWS have a problem with believing Jesus of Nazareth could be God come in the flesh. They just cannot wrap their mind around that concept, because their mind tells them no flesh-born can be God. So they make up lies like Jesus "is a god", or just a 'human'-like God, or even the Occultist view that The CHRIST is like 'The FORCE' which Jesus only connected to, to become a Master of all things, and that ANYONE can connect to that COSMIC FORCE like Jesus of Nazareth did, and become their very OWN God!

Those... are the kind of people one is dealing with that work against the Biblical fact that Jesus of Nazareth IS... The CHRIST, and thus God come in the flesh.

 

[ScottA]

The interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 - in conformance with both the local and outer context drawn for other scripture.

Paul’s letter to the church in Colossae, written to counteract false teachings that were undermining the supremacy and sufficiency of Yeshua the Messiah. The Colossian believers were being drawn toward a syncretistic mix of Jewish legalism, pagan mysticism, and angel worship—ideas that placed created beings or spiritual intermediaries on par with Christ. Paul responds with a powerful Christological hymn (likely an early Christian creed) to reassert Christ’s absolute preeminence as the founder of the new creation of, and for men.

Paul's theme here is about a new spiritual creation of man in Christ - the Church- 2 Cor 5:17-20 and Yeshua the Messiah is the firstborn and head of this new creation.

(2Co 5:17) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things are passed away, behold, all things have become new.
(2Co 5:18) But all things are of God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:19) That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses to them; and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 8:29 - " For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many other children. "

Gal 6:15 - " For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything. What counts is being a new creation."

The Interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 affirms Yeshua as the preeminent human Messiah and agent of God’s redemptive plan, not as a preexistent divine being. The creation language in verse 16 refers not to the physical creation of the universe, but to the spiritual creation of the Church and the new creation in believers.

"All things were created through him" (Col 1:16): this is referring to the new creation in Christ—specifically, the Church formed from Jew/Judahite and other outside nations (Eph 2:15), the "new man" (Eph 4:24), and the renewal of individual believers (2 Cor 5:17). The Greek word ektisthē (created) refers to actual creation, not arrangement, and is used throughout Scripture to denote God’s physical creation (e.g., Gen 1:1, Rev 10:6), but in Colossians, it is contextually tied to Christ’s role in redemption, not cosmogony. Paul does not suddenly reopen the discussion of the old Genesis experience here, and then for what purpose? This is about the new Genesis or new creation of the new man through Christ as the head of this creation by his resurrection to immortality.

"In him" (en autō): the preposition en (in) in Col 1:16 should be understood as "in intention" or "because of him", not "by him." or even not "through him" who has no independent power apart for his Father, his God. Scholars like James Dunn and F.F. Bruce, they suggest Paul speaks of God’s plan being centered on Christ before creation (Eph 1:4). Thus, creation was planned in view of Christ, not executed through him.

"Firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15): this as a title of honor and preeminence, not literal preexistence. It echoes Israel’s designation as God’s firstborn (Ex 4:22), meaning Christ is the foremost among God’s creation, especially in his role as the resurrected head of the Church.

"He is before all things" (Col 1:17): This is seen as a statement of Christ’s priority in God’s redemptive plan, not ontological preexistence. His supremacy is established through resurrection, to immortality, not eternity.

"God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in him" (Col 1:19): this is God bestowing divine authority and spiritual fullness upon Christ, not as a statement of divine essence. The same phrase in Ephesians 3:19 refers to believers receiving God’s fullness through the Spirit—showing that "fullness" does not imply divinity.

"Beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14): this verse confirms Christ’s role as the first to be raised to immortality, not the creator. He is the firstborn from the dead, not the Creator.

In summary, Colossians 1 is a high Christology rooted in God’s plan, not in Christ’s divinity or preexistence. Paul’s language is polemical against Gnosticism—affirming Christ’s real humanity and role in salvation—while maintaining strict monotheism, with God the Father as the sole Creator (Isa 44:24).

Ref John 11:25, Romans 8:29, 1 Cor 15:20, 23, 2 Cor 5, Col 3:9, Heb 1:4-5 as related to Col 1:15-20

Grade: F = Fail.

It is not for everyone who reads the scriptures and has a mind full of thoughts to interpret, but rather to hear--and only share--or be silent (1 Corinthians 14:28).

 

[JustMe]

You've already botched the passage in Colossians that refers to Christ as the Creator, you will do the same with Hebrews 1:2,8 , with John's gospel and letters, all of which reference the Son of God as Creator, and you will do the same with John 3:16 regarding His preexistence. Nevertheless, let us see what mental gymnastics you must put yourself through to convince us these scriptures do not say what is written.

“For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. ”
2 Corinthians 8:9 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. ”
Zechariah 9:9 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. ”
John 18:36 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. ”
Hebrews 2:6-7, 14-18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ”
Romans 5:8-11 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ”
Romans 8:3-4 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ”
Philippians 2:5-11 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. ”
1 John 4:1-3 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

I see you cannot or will not clarify your position from your previous post to me. And now you use the shot-gun approach to try and overwhelm me and quiet me.

I would also wager you cannot even clarify this list you gave to support your position.

Besides what I've already said on this thread I will attempt to extend your knowledge base further with these other passages of scripture that speaks to the Father as the only creator. You do know that he created all things for the future benefit of his Son, besides us, and so it is written, with pupose.

• 1 Corinthians 8:6 distinguishes the roles by stating, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things and for whom we exist."
• Ephesians 3:9 refers to God who "created all things through Jesus Christ," implying the Father is the ultimate author of the plan.
• James 1:17 describes God as the "Father of lights," from whom every good gift comes.
• Deuteronomy 32:6 asks, "Is he not your Father, who created you and made you?"
• Isaiah 45:12 declares, "I made the earth and created man on it... I stretched out the heavens," with the speaker identifying as the Lord God.

I hope you do not think that the Son of God also created Adam and Eve!

Stay focused, stay calm and love your brethren as you would want them to do the same for you.

 

[Justified]

The Interpretation of Colossians 1:15–20 affirms Yeshua as the preeminent human Messiah and agent of God’s redemptive plan, not as a preexistent divine being.

The only logical conclusion of Col 1:15-20 is that the Son pre-existed as God.

The creation language in verse 16 refers not to the physical creation of the universe, but to the spiritual creation of the Church and the new creation in believers.

That is reading into the text something that is not at all there. Paul is pointing out who Jesus is, as the "beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

"All things were created through him" (Col 1:16): this is referring to the new creation in Christ—specifically, the Church formed from Jew/Judahite and other outside nations (Eph 2:15), the "new man" (Eph 4:24), and the renewal of individual believers (2 Cor 5:17). The Greek word ektisthē (created) refers to actual creation, not arrangement, and is used throughout Scripture to denote God’s physical creation (e.g., Gen 1:1, Rev 10:6), but in Colossians, it is contextually tied to Christ’s role in redemption, not cosmogony.

No, that is not at all the context. The context is that of false teachings influencing the church at Colosse, which likely includes false ideas of Jesus, hence why his identity is brought up more than once. So, of course Paul is going to teach the supremacy of Christ.

Notice that you argue "The Greek word ektisthē (created) refers to actual creation, not arrangement, and is used throughout Scripture to denote God’s physical creation." But then, because it doesn't fit your beliefs, you change the plain and obvious to mean something different--"but in Colossians, it is contextually tied to Christ’s role in redemption, not cosmogony." That is a clear example of reading into the text to avoid an obvious conclusion.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Notice the repetition of "all creation" and "all things;" five times in three verses. "All things" is used to support the claim that the Son "is the image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation," to show why he is preeminent over "all creation."

Paul does not suddenly reopen the discussion of the old Genesis experience here, and then for what purpose? This is about the new Genesis or new creation of the new man through Christ as the head of this creation by his resurrection to immortality.

"For what purpose?" The same purpose as it always is when Paul mentions it elsewhere, as when John mentions it, and when the writer of Hebrews mentions it--it is about who the Son truly is and that he is preeminent and superior over all creation, including angels. It simply cannot mean anything else.

"In him" (en autō): the preposition en (in) in Col 1:16 should be understood as "in intention" or "because of him", not "by him." or even not "through him" who has no independent power apart for his Father, his God. Scholars like James Dunn and F.F. Bruce, they suggest Paul speaks of God’s plan being centered on Christ before creation (Eph 1:4). Thus, creation was planned in view of Christ, not executed through him.

As clearly stated in John 1:3, 10, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Heb. 1:2, 10-12, the Son is the agent of creation, and that fully agrees with Col. 1:16-17. Everything that has come into being, came into being through the Son. "In him" certainly means "through him" or "by him."

"He is before all things" (Col 1:17): This is seen as a statement of Christ’s priority in God’s redemptive plan, not ontological preexistence. His supremacy is established through resurrection, to immortality, not eternity.

No. You have to read "redemptive plan" into the text; that idea simply is not present. It is speaking very plainly and clearly about literal creation. Therefore, it means he actually existed before all things that came into existence.

In summary, Colossians 1 is a high Christology rooted in God’s plan, not in Christ’s divinity or preexistence. Paul’s language is polemical against Gnosticism—affirming Christ’s real humanity and role in salvation—while maintaining strict monotheism,

It clearly can only be in reference to Christ's divinity and, hence, his preexistence. And since he is truly deity and there is only one God, monotheism is upheld.

with God the Father as the sole Creator (Isa 44:24).

That Isa. 44:24 refers only to the Father is an unsupported assumption on your part.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says . . .
...
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”

Psa 102:25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Psa 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
Psa 102:27 but you are the same, and your years have no end.

The Father is clearly saying it is the Son who is the Lord (YHWH in Psalm 102) that "laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning," and that "the heavens are the work of your hands." And that supports what the writer of Hebrews has already told us:

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

There is one and only one logical conclusion--the Son has always existed, just as the Father has, and who is the agent of creation, hence why he is superior to the angels and the rest of creation.

 

[Trekson]

So can you stay on subject and respond to the passage of scripture of the thread or do you have a habit of automatically going off course to some other subject because you cannot comment on subject post for some reason? I can take a real good look at your John 1:1-3 later. There's no rush right? And I suspect you will not like my answer on that passage of scripture either as you will not see any extreme bias, and specific hallmarks of your predetermined belief system embedded INTO it.

Some things are just plain basic like 1,2,3 or a,b,c. It seems one has a looong way to go.

 

[Brakelite]

1 Corinthians 8:6 distinguishes the roles by stating, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things and for whom we exist."

Incomplete quote.
“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ”
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

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The one thing we can be sure of is that the Holy Spirit would never have led Paul, or anyone else for that matter, to contradict those whom He had led, or would lead in the future (like John), to reveal that Christ is God. John said very clearly that, “the Word was God” (John 1:1). Paul therefore could not have been saying that only the Father is God. It must also be remembered that it was Paul who said that in Christ dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). He also wrote to the Hebrews
“But unto the Son he [God the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God [theos], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [theos], even thy God [theos], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Hebrews 1:8-10
Paul is saying here that the Father called His Son God (theos), so to say that the same apostle was saying in 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 that Christ is not God (not theos) is to ‘force’ an inspired writer to contradict himself, which, in a very real sense, would be a denial of inspiration. Notice too that the Father says of Himself that He is the Son’s God. God the Father also calls the Son “Lord”. This reminds us of Psalm 110:1. Paul also emphasises that all of creation is the work of Christ’s hands. This passage of Scripture strongly confirms Christ as Deity.

It does not seem reasonable to assume that when saying, “there is none other God but one” and “But to us there is but one God, the Father” that Paul was simply repeating himself. Why should he have repeated himself? He could have simply said in the first place (in keeping with Jewish thought) that “there is none other God but one and this one is the Father”. Could it have been therefore that when he wrote, we have “one God the Father…and one Lord Jesus” that he was simply qualifying what he meant when he said “there is none other God but one”, thus at the same time avoiding controversy? After all, we have seen from Scripture that both the Father and the Son are God; also that there is a certain oneness between them which to us is unexplainable – and Jesus did say that He and the Father were one (John 10:30) – which, as we have seen above, brought about cries of blasphemy from the Jews. They read into His words that He was making Himself God (John 10:33).
There is another thought worth noting. If this text is saying that the only person who is actually God (or can be called God) is God the Father (because Paul said "there is but one God, the Father”) then by the same reasoning, because Paul said there is “one Lord Jesus”, are we precluding God the Father from being Lord (or from being called Lord)? This, in the light of Scripture, would be nonsensical.

Ephesians 3:9 refers to God who "created all things through Jesus Christ," implying the Father is the ultimate author of the plan.

Absolutely no argument with you there. Confirms 1.CORINTHIANS.8.6 as the Father being the great source of all things, by using His Son as the vehicle/ conduit through which all things were created. As your quote below alludes to...

James 1:17 describes God as the "Father of lights," from whom every good gift comes.

Isaiah 45:12 declares, "I made the earth and created man on it... I stretched out the heavens," with the speaker identifying as the Lord God.

And there is no contradiction between the above...
“ 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. ”
Isaiah 45:12 KJV

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and what Paul said under inspiration in both Colossians and Hebrews.

“13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: ”
Colossians 1:13-16 KJV

“1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews1:1-3

 

[JustMe]

Incomplete quote.
“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. ”
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

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The one thing we can be sure of is that the Holy Spirit would never have led Paul, or anyone else for that matter, to contradict those whom He had led, or would lead in the future (like John), to reveal that Christ is God. John said very clearly that, “the Word was God” (John 1:1). Paul therefore could not have been saying that only the Father is God. It must also be remembered that it was Paul who said that in Christ dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). He also wrote to the Hebrews
“But unto the Son he [God the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God [theos], is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [theos], even thy God [theos], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:” Hebrews 1:8-10
Paul is saying here that the Father called His Son God (theos), so to say that the same apostle was saying in 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 that Christ is not God (not theos) is to ‘force’ an inspired writer to contradict himself, which, in a very real sense, would be a denial of inspiration. Notice too that the Father says of Himself that He is the Son’s God. God the Father also calls the Son “Lord”. This reminds us of Psalm 110:1. Paul also emphasises that all of creation is the work of Christ’s hands. This passage of Scripture strongly confirms Christ as Deity.

It does not seem reasonable to assume that when saying, “there is none other God but one” and “But to us there is but one God, the Father” that Paul was simply repeating himself. Why should he have repeated himself? He could have simply said in the first place (in keeping with Jewish thought) that “there is none other God but one and this one is the Father”. Could it have been therefore that when he wrote, we have “one God the Father…and one Lord Jesus” that he was simply qualifying what he meant when he said “there is none other God but one”, thus at the same time avoiding controversy? After all, we have seen from Scripture that both the Father and the Son are God; also that there is a certain oneness between them which to us is unexplainable – and Jesus did say that He and the Father were one (John 10:30) – which, as we have seen above, brought about cries of blasphemy from the Jews. They read into His words that He was making Himself God (John 10:33).
There is another thought worth noting. If this text is saying that the only person who is actually God (or can be called God) is God the Father (because Paul said "there is but one God, the Father”) then by the same reasoning, because Paul said there is “one Lord Jesus”, are we precluding God the Father from being Lord (or from being called Lord)? This, in the light of Scripture, would be nonsensical.


Absolutely no argument with you there. Confirms 1.CORINTHIANS.8.6 as the Father being the great source of all things, by using His Son as the vehicle/ conduit through which all things were created. As your quote below alludes to...



And there is no contradiction between the above...
“ 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. ”
Isaiah 45:12 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

and what Paul said under inspiration in both Colossians and Hebrews.

“13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: ”
Colossians 1:13-16 KJV

“1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews1:1-3

Yhank you for your post, BL.

I will focus on the first part of your response.

(1Co 8:6) Yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come and for whom we exist; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things exist, and through whom we live.

Yes, BL, you are right. I intentionally left out part of 1Co 8:6b, referring to the Son of God, also God's Messiah in this verse, to emphasize and separate that the Father alone is the Creator and source, as clearly stated in 1Co 8:6a—developed and carried out by His logos and Spirit, in that order. His logos is His own divine mind, not His true Son.

If we want to highlight the significance of the Father's Son as mentioned in 1Co 8:6b alone, and understand that the logos of God is the agent of creation, then this agent is an intrinsic attribute of the Father, His mind, which conceived and formulated His plans, purposes, and directives for creation, communication to humanity, and so forth. He did all this because of His future Son, His future Messiah. We are believers because of the Son of God and being the Christ. Today, the Son's Father remains the Creator and continues to create with power, although now it is through His Son, especially regarding things intended for the church and the Kingdom.

So, as the entire verse is understood without inserting any religious dogma or doctrine: The logos of God, our Father, planned for the future Son of God and created all as a consequence or reason—namely, for His Son. We, as believers, exist in Christ and because of Christ, the Messiah, to be part of the Body of the Father's Messiah. This all literally began when the Father's Son became His Messiah. God was literally within His Son, through His word/logos and the power of His Spirit.

Therefore, where in Scripture does the Spirit of the Father (also known as the Holy Spirit), who is God, deliver His word to His messengers and scribes, declaring that His Son is not only His Messiah but also God, equal to the Father? John 1:1 or 1:14 do not speak to this. Colossians 2:9 does not, as the divinity of God and what He represents is only as the Father, and there is no other god besides Him.

Have a blessed day, and I'm glad and I prayed that those living in NZ, that most of them, would be, and were spared, not being in the path of that cyclone, of yesterday. God Bless that country!

 

[Davy]

(1Co 8:6) Yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come and for whom we exist; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things exist, and through whom we live.

Yes, BL, you are right. I intentionally left out part of 1Co 8:6b, referring to the Son of God, also God's Messiah in this verse, to emphasize and separate that the Father alone is the Creator and source, as clearly stated in 1Co 8:6a—developed and carried out by His logos and Spirit, in that order. His logos is His own divine mind, not His true Son.

If we want to highlight the significance of the Father's Son as mentioned in 1Co 8:6b alone, and understand that the logos of God is the agent of creation, then this agent is an intrinsic attribute of the Father, His mind, which conceived and formulated His plans, purposes, and directives for creation, communication to humanity, and so forth. He did all this because of His future Son, His future Messiah. We are believers because of the Son of God and being the Christ. Today, the Son's Father remains the Creator and continues to create with power, although now it is through His Son, especially regarding things intended for the church and the Kingdom.

So, as the entire verse is understood without inserting any religious dogma or doctrine: The logos of God, our Father, planned for the future Son of God and created all as a consequence or reason—namely, for His Son. We, as believers, exist in Christ and because of Christ, the Messiah, to be part of the Body of the Father's Messiah. This all literally began when the Father's Son became His Messiah. God was literally within His Son, through His word/logos and the power of His Spirit.

....

That above interpretation about Jesus Christ is FALSE of course, seeing how there exists many other Bible Scriptures that declare Christ as one Person in the triune Godhead of God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.

 

[Justified]

(1Co 8:6) Yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things come and for whom we exist; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things exist, and through whom we live.

Yes, BL, you are right. I intentionally left out part of 1Co 8:6b, referring to the Son of God, also God's Messiah in this verse, to emphasize and separate that the Father alone is the Creator and source, as clearly stated in 1Co 8:6a—developed and carried out by His logos and Spirit, in that order. His logos is His own divine mind, not His true Son.

This shows a serious lack in critical thinking.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Notice two things. First, if you argue from this that the Father alone is God, then it necessarily follows that only Jesus is Lord. That is, if Jesus cannot be God, then the Father cannot be Lord. But that would contradict other passages.

Second, if "from whom are all things" speaks of the absolute, eternal nature of the Father, then it necessarily follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the absolute eternal nature of the Son. It cannot be otherwise.

That is, if "all things" were created "through" the Son, then it is impossible that the Son was created or came into being, otherwise he would be one of those very things. That leads to either error or nonsense--either Paul is wrong or the Son came into being by means of himself.

This points directly to the Son being the agent of creation, just as in John 1:3, 10, Col. 1:16-17, and Heb. 1:2, 10-12.

Basic logic.

 

[Davy]

This shows a serious lack in critical thinking.

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Notice two things. First, if you argue from this that the Father alone is God, then it necessarily follows that only Jesus is Lord. That is, if Jesus cannot be God, then the Father cannot be Lord. But that would contradict other passages.

Second, if "from whom are all things" speaks of the absolute, eternal nature of the Father, then it necessarily follows that "through whom are all things" speaks of the absolute eternal nature of the Son. It cannot be otherwise.

That is, if "all things" were created "through" the Son, then it is impossible that the Son was created or came into being, otherwise he would be one of those very things. That leads to either error or nonsense--either Paul is wrong or the Son came into being by means of himself.

This points directly to the Son being the agent of creation, just as in John 1:3, 10, Col. 1:16-17, and Heb. 1:2, 10-12.

Basic logic.

But Satan's children of darkness come to Christian forums to LIE, which most often means going directly against common sense logic.

 

[JustMe]

At verse 1 Cor 8:6), there's more then to explain I see? Without again adding into this verse any religious and novel preconceived ideas....

This verse distinguishes between "one God" (the Father) and "one Lord" (Jesus Christ), asserting that Yeshua is not included in the one God of the Shema but is a subordinate figure. It suggest that titles like "Lord" can apply to human figures of authority or those exalted by God, similar to how David is called "lord." Although the expression in this verse "one Lord" is specifically used as a title reserved for Yeshua that excludes the Father from that specific designation, while noting that God can still be called "Lord" in other contexts and he does in many NT verses. You do know that the translators unfortunately translated the Greek word for LORD, Lord or lord indiscriminately in many places for us to decide, primarily on local context, who and which is the Lord referring to, either the Messiah or his God. And in this case it is Yeshua, and his God is the one who exalted and made him this Lord of course.

The phrase "all things" in 1 Corinthians 8:6 does not include Yeshua because the interpretation of the context is promoting the direct reference to the Church and the new covenant rather/over than the Genesis creation. Paul distinguishes between the Father, "from whom" all things come, and Yeshua, "through whom" all things come, placing Jesus in a subordinate role as the agent of God's provision for believers rather than any source of creation of as a co-equal Creator.

Key points of this interpretation include:

Contextual Focus: The verse is seen as addressing issues within the Corinthian church, such as food sacrificed to idols, meaning "all things" refers to the freedom and blessings of the new covenant rather than the original creation of the universe.

Distinction of Roles: The prepositions "from" (ex) and "through" (di) are viewed as establishing a hierarchy where the Father is the ultimate source and Yeshua is the mediator, excluding Yeshua from being the "one God."

Note also, the absence of the Holy Spirit: the verse defines God who is a spirit exclusively as the Father and omits the other person some call the 'Holy Spirit'

Now this is logic, in context, to apply on this verse. This particular verse cannot be that difficult to explain. Paul is making a clear distinction between Yeshua (made lord) and his Father, who is God. It's that's simple, why change its basic underling thought given by Paul to the Corinthians? Unless you have an underlining and a completely different agenda to impose upon it.