Maybe I Am Not Understanding the Post Tribulation Rapture. - Can You Help?

[ewq1938]

Jesus will descend from heaven, with a shout as He circles the earth, to reconstitute the dead bodies from the dust of the earth.

That's not what Paul taught. The saved get a new body which is in heaven, not their old body.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved human's body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.

Paul knew he wasn't returning to his old body.

He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrection body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received. A death must take place before a "quickening" can occur which would be a resurrection.

So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's not what Paul taught. The saved get a new body which is in heaven, not their old body.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved human's body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.

Paul knew he wasn't returning to his old body.

He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrection body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received. A death must take place before a "quickening" can occur which would be a resurrection.

So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.

This is nonsense. In this view, there is no resurrection of the dead that takes place. You just have the souls and spirits of believers entering into a new body in heaven. There's no resurrection of the dead taking place in that case. You are mistaken. While our immortal bodies may originate from heaven from God, our dead mortal bodies have to be resurrected from the dead first before they are then immediately changed into immortal bodies and then they will be caught up from the earth together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Douggg]

That's not what Paul taught. The saved get a new body which is in heaven, not their old body.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven!

"to be clothed"

Paul was speaking about the spiritual body that individual believers in Christ will receive when they die and their souls go to heaven. And that spiritual body being clothed in white robes and not be naked.

Paul was not speaking about bodies being brought with Jesus when He comes for the mass event of the resurrection/rapture.

 

[Douggg]

So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.

Jesus's Second Coming is referring to His return to earth in Revelation 19.

Differently, Jesus coming for the resurrection/rapture event will be before the wrath of God is poured out in the great tribulation. 1Thessalonians5:9.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"to be clothed"

Paul was speaking about the spiritual body that individual believers in Christ will receive when they die and their souls go to heaven. And that spiritual body being clothed in white robes and not be naked.

The reference to white robes and fine linen in Revelation are only symbolic. They should not be taken literally. They do not refer to anyone's bodies at all. They symbolically represent "the righteousness of saints".

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Paul was not speaking about bodies being brought with Jesus when He comes for the mass event of the resurrection/rapture.

I agree, but Revelation 19:8 is not talking about believers having spiritual bodies yet, either. The armies dressed in fine linen that will be with Jesus when He comes symbolically represent the souls of the dead in Christ that will be with Him when He comes (1 Thess 4:14).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's not what Paul taught. The saved get a new body which is in heaven, not their old body.

Scripture clearly teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurrected. In what way do you think they will be resurrected? You deny that their old bodies will be resurrected, so in what other sense can they be resurrected before their bodies are changed? In 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 Paul makes it clear that the dead in Christ are resurrected first before being changed. You are ignoring the part about them being resurrected from the dead.

So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven,

What?! How can they be physically resurrected in heaven when their dead physical bodies are buried within the earth? You're not making any sense. You have a doctrine all to yourself, which always means it's a false doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

The reference to white robes and fine linen in Revelation are only symbolic. They should not be taken literally. They do not refer to anyone's bodies at all. They symbolically represent "the righteousness of saints".

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The white robes are both clothing and symbolic. No one is going to be running around naked in heaven.

I agree, but Revelation 19:8 is not talking about believers having spiritual bodies yet, either. The armies dressed in fine linen that will be with Jesus when He comes symbolically represent the souls of the dead in Christ that will be with Him when He comes (1 Thess 4:14).

If I understand you correctly, you hold to the post trib resurrection/rapture view ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The white robes are both clothing and symbolic. No one is going to be running around naked in heaven.

Where does scripture teach that? I have no reason to believe you unless you can show scripture indicating that people's souls and spirits can't be in heaven without bodies or clothing.

If I understand you correctly, you hold to the post trib resurrection/rapture view ?

Of course. Did you forget again that I'm an amillennialist? There are no pre-trib or mid-trib amillennialists. Jesus will only be descending from heaven once in the future and He will come in like manner as He ascended to heaven, which was visibly and bodily (Acts 1:9-11).

 

[rebuilder 454]

That's not what Paul taught. The saved get a new body which is in heaven, not their old body.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved human's body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.

Paul knew he wasn't returning to his old body.

He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrection body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received. A death must take place before a "quickening" can occur which would be a resurrection.

So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.

Jesus bodily rose from the dead.
He is The first fruits of the first resurrection. Lazarus also bodily rose from the dead.
The dead in Christ will be bodily raised from the dead.
At the great white throne judgment.
The entire planet that has been in the grave, and the ocean, for thousands of years, ....they all will raise bodily from the dead

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"to be clothed"

Paul was speaking about the spiritual body that individual believers in Christ will receive when they die and their souls go to heaven. And that spiritual body being clothed in white robes and not be naked.

Paul was not speaking about bodies being brought with Jesus when He comes for the mass event of the resurrection/rapture.

No one yet has a spiritual body except for Jesus. I assume you agree that no one besides Jesus has been raised from the dead unto bodily immortality yet? Read this....

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Paul, speaking in relation to the bodily resurrection of the dead, said that the bodies of the dead in Christ (the bodies they had in their temporal lifetimes on earth), are natural bodies that were sown in corruption, dishonor and weakness. He indicated that when the dead in Christ are resurrected they will be resurrected with spiritual bodies that are raised in incorruption, glory and power. And he later goes on to say those spiritual bodies will be immortal as well. So, the change that will take place to our bodies at the last trumpet will be from corrupt, dishonorable, weak and mortal natural bodies to incorruptible, glorious, powerful and immortal spiritual bodies.

 

[indentured servant]

Please give me your opinion.

Let me make sure I understand the post tribulation rapture.

Are these verses in Matthew 24 considered the same event as the verses in Revelation 19 below?

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Whether you are post tribulation or Pre trib, Mid trib, Pre wrath etc. I would like your opinion and also are you post trib, pre trib, mid trib etc. Let's make sure we are on the same page.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?
The more opinions, the better.

Are the above verses describing the one and only coming of Jesus?

Your inquiry reveals much confusion, likely due to the dogmatic teaching you've endured...

If I may just simplify the pivotal event of prophecy...

Tribulation
Wrath of God
Relocation (rapture) of God's children
Intro of the Remnant of Israel and the New Jerusalem
Life-with "God-with-us' (Emmanuel)

 

[The Light]

If I may just simplify the pivotal event of prophecy...

Tribulation
Wrath of God
Relocation (rapture) of God's children
Intro of the Remnant of Israel and the New Jerusalem
Life-with "God-with-us' (Emmanuel)

I am not understanding what you are saying.

 

[William Barton]

"Tribulation"= "Time of distress."

There is disagreement:
1. When is this time?
2. At what point in this time will Jesus return (before, within, after)?

Before = pre-tribulation
Middle = mid-tribulation
After = post-tribulation

"Rapture" is an English word stemming from Latin rapio = "carry off." Jesus will descend from heaven, take believers up, and bring them to heaven. This is necessary because there will be an angelic war on the earth afterwards.

The rapture is indicated in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, Matthew 24:30-31, 1Corinthians 15-50-55, and a few other places.

 

[The Light]

"Tribulation"= "Time of distress."

There is disagreement:
1. When is this time?
2. At what point in this time will Jesus return (before, within, after)?

Before = pre-tribulation
Middle = mid-tribulation
After = post-tribulation

Jesus comes for His Church before the great tribulation which is in the middle of the week.

Jesus comes again at the 6th seal for the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. The 6th seal is post trib........immediately after the tribulation.

Jesus comes with the armies of heaven for Armageddon at the end of the 7th seal. All these people that claim to be post trib are really post wrath as they think the rapture is at the end of Gods wrath.

"Rapture" is an English word stemming from Latin rapio = "carry off." Jesus will descend from heaven, take believers up, and bring them to heaven. This is necessary because there will be an angelic war on the earth afterwards.

The rapture is indicated in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, Matthew 24:30-31, 1Corinthians 15-50-55, and a few other places.

There are two raptures. The fig tree has two harvests. Days of Noah, Days of Lot