Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[The Light]

There were more than a few believers in the first fold made up of Jewish believers. There were enough believers to the point where Paul could declare that God had not cast away the Israelite people.

Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

According to your false perspective, God did cast them away. But, He did not, as evidenced by the remnant of believers in Paul's time, including Paul himself, obviously.

There were 3,000 Jews added to that first fold on the day of Pentecost alone. That was the fold Jesus was talking about in John 10 with the other sheep who were not of that fold being Gentile believers who were joined with the first fold of Israelite believers as one fold. One new man. One body. You are completely clueless about this. You have a belief all to yourself. God does not reveal truth to only one person.

And yet if you keep reading the Word says that the Jews are currently blinded. The Gentiles are used to bring the Jew to jealously.

The folds are things that Jesus will bring with Him (Rapture to heaven). These are the brides. That is why the great multitude is in heaven at the marriage supper. The first bride is Gentile.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And yet if you keep reading the Word says that the Jews are currently blinded.

In part. Not completely. Why are you willing to twist the Word to make it say what you want it to say? Do you have no conscience?

The Gentiles are used to bring the Jew to jealously.

That has been God's plan for around 2,000 years. It was already happening in Paul's day. But that relates to the Jews who were blinded, not to Jewish believers. You try to act as if there were no Jewish believers.

The folds are things that Jesus will bring with Him (Rapture to heaven).

Nonsense. Jesus spoke of having a sheep fold in the present tense in John 10. That fold consisted of believers from the house of Israel that Jesus said He was sent to save (Matthew 15:24). His other sheep are Gentile believers that He brought together into one fold with Israelite believers with His shed blood. The one fold is the same as the one new man and one body of Jew and Gentile believers that Jesus brought together as one with His blood. This is part of Christianity 101 and you're failing the class.

These are the brides.

Jesus does not have more than one bride. That is utter nonsense. His bride is the church and only the church (Ephesians 5:22-32) which consists of Jew and Gentile believers together as one. You try to divide His people that He brought together as one. Shameful stuff!

That is why the great multitude is in heaven at the marriage supper. The first bride is Gentile.

Total nonsense! There is not more than one bride and the marriage supper does not take place in heaven. Revelation 19 indicates that the bride is not ready for the marriage until it's time for Jesus to return FROM heaven. Hello? Were you taught this garbage or did you come up with it yourself?

 

[WPM]

Really?

How about the barley harvest? The dead in Christ rise first. Has this happened yet?

The extra-biblical statements get more and more and the avoided questions get larger and larger.

1. Where is your Pretrib rapture in Revelation?
2. Is Revelation 19 your 3rd rapture?
3. Where is your tribulation period following Matthew 24:44 (or any other rapture passage)?
4. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
5. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests? The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
6. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
8. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
9. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
10. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
11. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
12. Show us any Scripture that teaches there are "two" future "raptures"?
13. Where in the Bible does it teach that "the fig tree having two harvests are referring to two raptures”?
14. Where in the Scriptures does it teach that “the two folds of sheep are referring to two raptures”?
15. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?
16. Show us any Scripture that teaches "the Church is removed before the great tribulation, which is the time of testing"?
17. Show us any Scripture that teaches there is a "one-year wrath of God"?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rev 14 is only showing the gathering from the earth. The Jews are gathered from the earth AT THE 6TH SEAL, prior to the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

When you are reading the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14, this is another view of the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal prior to wrath.

How do we know Jesus comes at the 6th seal? Because in Matthew 24 He comes when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. That event happens at the 6th seal, therefore Jesus comes at the 6th seal.


I can't make any clearer than to post the very scripture. In Matthew 24 the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven. Then Jesus comes.

When the 6th seal is opened, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall heaven. With simple deductive reasoning that most have learned by doing word problems in school we can easily conclude that Jesus comes at the 6th seal.


This is the first harvest, the Gentile bride. The Gentile bride will be in heaven during the great tribulation. I did not say, 7 year tribulation. I said great tribulation.

The second harvest is the Jews......but only the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. Both brides are in heaven at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. This is why there is a great multitude in Rev 7, some of whom come out of great tribulation.

Israel, the woman, those that flee to a place of protection, remain on earth during the wrath of God.


But it is not a 7 year tribulation as is commonly taught. It is a 7 year time period that begins when a 7 year covenant with many is made.

Additionally the is only 3.5 year remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.........time, times and half a time.


Sorry. Noah is not gathered pretrib. He is only gathered pre flood.

The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, no matter how many preachers claim it is.

The great tribulation is when the Jews are hunted and killed. It is the time of Jacobs trouble. The wrath of God is when God takes vengeance on an evil unbelieving world.


I'm not back peddling. I have continually said that the great tribulation is NOT the wrath of God.

Look at the Word. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the wrath of God.




Do the calculation in Daniel. There is only 3.5 year remaining in the 70th week of Daniel. Messiah arrives after 69 weeks and is cut off after his ministry.


I use KJV. It says Jesus comes in POWER AND GLORY immediately after the tribulation of those days when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. It also says that when the 6th seal is opened the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

Pretty simple stuff.

It also says this is a great multitude in heaven right after the 6th seal. And it says that the great multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper in Revelation.


This will be the greatest tribulation suffered by Christians ever.

But it is not the wrath of God which is Gods vengeance. You have Christians running around during Gods wrath. We are not appointed to wrath.

There is no 7-year tribulation. There is a 7-year period that will begin when a covenant with many is made. The Church will be in heaven before the middle of the week which begins the great tribulation.


Tribulation is on Christians. Most of them will be Jews because the door will be shut when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Then go read the 7th seal wrath of God. There is not a chance that the worst part of the great tribulation compares to the wrath of God.


What 7 year tribulation. Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood.

QUOTE
""This will be the greatest tribulation suffered by Christians ever.
But it is not the wrath of God which is Gods vengeance. You have Christians running around during Gods wrath. We are not appointed to wrath"".

Mat 24
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

21 for then shall be great
tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the
world to this time, no, nor ever
shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Trib", "GT", "wrath" are all used interchangeably in those passages.

VS 21....."For then"...When ?
After the AC descecrates the temple AT THE MIDPOINT OF THE 7 YR TRIB.

29...IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.
What days?
These days:

21 for then shall be great
tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the
world to this time, no, nor ever
shall be.

Rev 21 is speaking of the wrath...(great tribulation/ WRATH that never will be greater.)
that is the wrath, which precedes Him coming in power and glory on the white horses.
(AFTER THE WRATH...AFTER THE 7 YR TRIB (THE PROPHET DANIEL DECLARED).

The trinity is all about complete and total unity as "one". Two wives would be contrary to perfect unity thus cannot be.

It is illustrated in Ruth. Romans 9-11 ties it in, and the fact that the 144,000 are ethnic Jews that are born again.
Paul declared himself a Jew and a born again believer.
He made the distinction , that you say is not there.
Vivid and plain.

Abraham's and Isaac's wives, tie into the 2 wives dynamic.
The father and his wife
The Son and his wife.
However in heaven the 2 become one.

But like Paul has his in his testimony, there is a distinction that is never going to go away.
But in heaven, it will be joined as one.

Ruth, Naomi and Boaz. Together in heaven.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Light quote
"You have Christians running around during Gods wrath. We are not appointed to wrath"".

I see them running around briefly DURING the 7 yr gt.
But the AC kills all left behind soon after the rapture.
The innumerable number is the martyrs from the AC.
No believers are running around in the final 6 or so yrs of the 7yr trib.except the 144,000 who are harvested in Rev 14.
And no harvest is made after the Jewish harvest at the mid point of the 7 yr trib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Light quote
"You have Christians running around during Gods wrath. We are not appointed to wrath"".

I see them running around briefly DURING the 7 yr gt.
But the AC kills all left behind soon after the rapture.
The innumerable number is the martyrs from the AC.
No believers are running around in the final 6 or so yrs of the 7yr trib.except the 144,000 who are harvested in Rev 14.
And no harvest is made after the Jewish harvest at the mid point of the 7 yr trib.

 

[WPM]

Bro, he is full of illusions and imaginations.

 

[Trekson]

Really?

How about the barley harvest? The dead in Christ rise first. Has this happened yet?

Yes, as we've been talking about, Christ and those that arose w/ him were the only spring harvest their will be. Both the rapture/resurrection of the church and the earthly gathering of Israel, post Armageddon will be fall harvests.

 

[Trekson]

QUOTE
""This will be the greatest tribulation suffered by Christians ever.
But it is not the wrath of God which is Gods vengeance. You have Christians running around during Gods wrath. We are not appointed to wrath"".

Mat 24
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

21 for then shall be great
tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the
world to this time, no, nor ever
shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Trib", "GT", "wrath" are all used interchangeably in those passages.

VS 21....."For then"...When ?
After the AC descecrates the temple AT THE MIDPOINT OF THE 7 YR TRIB.

29...IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.
What days?
These days:

21 for then shall be great
tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the
world to this time, no, nor ever
shall be.

Rev 21 is speaking of the wrath...(great tribulation/ WRATH that never will be greater.)
that is the wrath, which precedes Him coming in power and glory on the white horses.
(AFTER THE WRATH...AFTER THE 7 YR TRIB (THE PROPHET DANIEL DECLARED).



It is illustrated in Ruth. Romans 9-11 ties it in, and the fact that the 144,000 are ethnic Jews that are born again.
Paul declared himself a Jew and a born again believer.
He made the distinction , that you say is not there.
Vivid and plain.

Abraham's and Isaac's wives, tie into the 2 wives dynamic.
The father and his wife
The Son and his wife.
However in heaven the 2 become one.

But like Paul has his in his testimony, there is a distinction that is never going to go away.
But in heaven, it will be joined as one.

Ruth, Naomi and Boaz. Together in heaven.

Why do you think they have anything to do w/ a latter day marriage. The Jews of the church age, the rapture/resurrection to sometime in the 70th week will all be the groom. The 144,000 is symbolic of the whole born again of Israel. It is they who are awaiting Christ's arrival in Rev. 19.

 

[David in NJ]

The trinity is all about complete and total unity as "one". Two wives would be contrary to perfect unity thus cannot be.

Two wives is against/contrary to Genesis and the Law of God which Christ came to fulfill unto the FATHER and for us.

@rebuilder 454

 

[The Light]

Two wives is against/contrary to Genesis and the Law of God which Christ came to fulfill unto the FATHER and for us.

@rebuilder 454

Jacob had two wives.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why do you think they have anything to do w/ a latter day marriage. The Jews of the church age, the rapture/resurrection to sometime in the 70th week will all be the groom. The 144,000 is symbolic of the whole born again of Israel. It is they who are awaiting Christ's arrival in Rev. 19.

Christ "comes" in Rev 14.
Way before Rev 19.
Way way before the second coming.

Israel is represented in gomer. (Purchased in the end.)
She is referred to in the first miracle AT A WEDDING, when it was declared "....you saved the best for last."
"last" and "first" are interchangeable in God's plan.
The first becomes last, and the last becomes first.
Why do you think the blessing in the OT was to the second born ?
The Jews are the "first born".

Postrib rapture doctrine NEVER includes the bride and groom, nor the "first vs last" components.
Never.
Postrib rapture doctrine is 100% tribulation centered.
They neither understand the purpose of the trib, the rapture, the wedding in heaven, the bride/ groom component, nor who and what the 144,000 are.
Not to mention, they NEVER refer to the harvests or have ANY understanding of "firstfruits"
Flat out bizarre how tons of dynamics of end times is castvdown by them.
So much confusion and alterations/omissions.

Instead, all energy is over how brave they are for enduring the trib, and how evil we are for digging into our Bibles and placing verses on the table that go completely over their heads.

I show them over and over how all believers die that refuse the mark.
They refuse to process that information.

They CAN NOT admit the ark is in the heavens/ clouds during the flood/trib.
The fact, that Noah is gathered into the ark pretrib, (the ark being a type of heaven), and rises into the heavens and returns to earth postrib, is cast down by them....SMH

The Word "delusion", comes to mind.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, as we've been talking about, Christ and those that arose w/ him were the only spring harvest their will be. Both the rapture/resurrection of the church and the earthly gathering of Israel, post Armageddon will be fall harvests.

If you are preterist then that is a whole different bible, than my greek interlinear.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Two wives is against/contrary to Genesis and the Law of God which Christ came to fulfill unto the FATHER and for us.

@rebuilder 454

Pretend Hosea does not exist, then cut out Ruth and romans 9-11

The 2 wives are eternally cannonized in God's Holy Word.

 

[The Light]

"Trib", "GT", "wrath" are all used interchangeably in those passages.

This is not true.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The end of the great tribulation is marked by the signs sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling from heaven.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

The great tribulation is when the beast is killing Christians......mostly Jews. The wrath of God is when God is taking vengeance on an evil unbelieving world. I'm not sure why you are don't see these are not the same events.

VS 21....."For then"...When ?
After the AC descecrates the temple AT THE MIDPOINT OF THE 7 YR TRIB.

At the midpoint of the 7 years. Tribulation does not begin until the midpoint.

29...IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.
What days?
These days:

21 for then shall be great
tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the
world to this time, no, nor ever
shall be.

Rev 21 is speaking of the wrath...(great tribulation/ WRATH that never will be greater.)
that is the wrath, which precedes Him coming in power and glory on the white horses.
(AFTER THE WRATH...AFTER THE 7 YR TRIB (THE PROPHET DANIEL DECLARED).

I don't know how to make the Word of God any clearer to you.

Immediately after the tribulation the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven. When He opens the 6th seal, the sun and moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns at the 6th seal in power and glory and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. After the one year wrath of God the armies of heaven return to the earth for Armageddon.

 

[David in NJ]

Jacob had two wives.

#1 - Jacob is prior to the LAW

#2 - The two wives are an allegory of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant
a.) Leah represents the Old Covenant
b.) Rachael represents the New Covenant - thus why Jacob had to work an additional 7 years = "On the 7th Day God RESTED"

Genesis 2:24​

“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” – Genesis 2:24

• Deuteronomy 17:17 (KJV): "Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold."

Ephesians 5:25​

“Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her.” – Ephesians 5:25

 

[ewq1938]

Jacob had two wives.

So did God in the OT.

 

[covenantee]

Jacob had two wives.

Yes, and Jacob was an NT Christian.

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is not true.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The end of the great tribulation is marked by the signs sun and moon being darkened and the stars falling from heaven.

Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

The great tribulation is when the beast is killing Christians......mostly Jews. The wrath of God is when God is taking vengeance on an evil unbelieving world. I'm not sure why you are don't see these are not the same events.


At the midpoint of the 7 years. Tribulation does not begin until the midpoint.

I don't know how to make the Word of God any clearer to you.

Immediately after the tribulation the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven. When He opens the 6th seal, the sun and moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns at the 6th seal in power and glory and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. After the one year wrath of God the armies of heaven return to the earth for Armageddon.

No matter how you slice it , the direct statement, "..tribulation such as the world has never seen or ever will be"
(The wrath part of tge 7 yr trib) is way worse thst the first part of the 7 yr trib.
So you can not refer to what you are separating as "tribulation" as greater than the wrath.
That obstacle is insurmountable because you say "coming in power and great glory is not at the white horse coming.
That item is NOT NEGOTIABLE.
Only one place where Jesus comes in power and great glory...and that is The second coming on white horses.
So In mat 24 when it says "after the trib" referring to Jesus coming, it can not in ANY WAY be ANYTHING but the second coming on white horses.
So you changed Matthew to fit. And you did so by, using a strict amplified application of "trib can not be wrath."
"After The tribulation of those days", is after the seven year tribulation spoken of in daniel.
That problem will not go away.
The next insurmountable problem is in Jesus words " Tribulation such as the world has never seen and never will see again"
You claim that the trib "such as the world has never seen nor ever will again" is before the wrath, which is backwards in timing, since Jesus is implied to be unaware, that the wrath that will follow, is even worse than the previous judgements.

So those 2 items are insurmountable in your model.

 

[Trekson]

Jacob had two wives.

One has to deal w/ the NT not the old, in this regard. None of the disciples did and 1 Tim. 3:2 says a bishop/deacon "must" be the husband of only "one" wife. Christ isn't going to go contrary to His word.