Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[rebuilder 454]

There is... are... no... "raptures." Jesus will come back, the final judgment will occur, and the unsaved will be sent away. The time of tribulation is now, just as Jesus said in John 16:33. There will be, though, a great ramping up of this tribulation near the end as His return approaches, "great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now," as He said in Matthew 24.21. God never says He will remove anyone from tribulation, but rather walk with His people through it, as in Psalm 23.

Grace and peace to all.

Pretend Rev 14 does not say what it says.
Or ignore it.
Oh wait...you already do.
Nevermind.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I would say not. The only eschatology not backed by any scripture is the false pretrib doctrine.

Lol.
EVERY rapture verse is pretrib setting.
You can not prove otherwise.
That is why you , instead, throw generalized "safe" statements at it.
Get a bible and you will cast down your misinformation, or, be shown the word and decide to go against the bible.
(Like I am making you do.)

 

[PinSeeker]

It seems you misunderstand that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS, and stand before the Son of man. That would be at the throne of God.

We disagree on the sense in which what you say here are true. They are true, but not in the sense that you say them. In this life, we cannot absolutely remove ourselves ~ or be removed ~ from "all these things."

You're actually doing the same thing on this that @rebuilder 454 is doing in your exchange with him. But yeah, you said to him, "The wrath of God is on unbelievers. Simple..." and I absolutely agree with you on that... or, actually I wouldn't say 'is' but rather 'will be,' which I think is what you mean, and if so then good.

It seems you do not understand that the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened.

Well, right, I don't understand that, but in the sense that understanding things in that way is contrary to what will actually happen. We well not be removed from planet earth, from God's creation, which was once "very good" (Genesis 1:31) and will be again, which is what God is saying in Revelation 21:5... "Behold, I am making all things new." Ever hear of a book called, "Last Things First," by J.V. Fesko (who I know very well, by the way...)?

That is how we escape the hour of temptation that will come upon the whole world...

In the sense that we will be delivered through it, protected and kept in Christ, our Lord and savior, our Redeemer and Deliverer, our Prince of Peace.

. Also note that the next verse He says He is coming.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

He will return, yes. <smile>

Noah was in the ark before the flood.

Jesus is the ark... Noah's ark is a type, a shadow, of Jesus. The ark represents Jesus in that story, who delivered Noah through the storm... and will deliver us through this storm we are presently walking through now, this life in a fallen world. Noah was not removed from creation...

Lot was led out of Sodom by angels.

He was told to flee, by God's grace, so that he would not be present during God's judgment on Sodom. Like Noah, Lot was not removed from creation...

He opened the Red Sea for His people to escape the coming destruction.

Right, he provided a way through which Moses could lead Israel... into the desert (through which God, as a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, led them) and ultimately to the Promised Land of course, but it was really about God protecting His people from Pharoah and the Egyptians and delivering them from slavery, which is what God says in Exodus 20: "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery." Even as they were making their way through the desert ~ for 40 years, of course ~ God provided them with food, the manna from heaven, which... is another type, shadow, of Jesus, which Jesus even says in John 6:32 and following, "it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven... I am the bread of life; whoever comes to Me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in Me shall never thirst." And just like Noah and his family and Lot and his, neither Moses nor any of the Israelites were removed from creation...

This is what God does.

He never removes them from anything, but delivers them through it, walking with them throughout, never leaving them nor forsaking them, because... His steadfast love endures forever. Noah, Lot, Moses, the Israelites.... never left creation; they did not escape in that sense, and nor shall we.

His people are not appointed to wrath.

His wrath, The Light ~ in the final sense, that He will inflict His wrath on sin in the final, absolute sense in the final Judgment, which will be executed by Christ at the end of the age and after the final defeat of Satan and just before the consummation of the Kingdom of God with the coming of the new heaven and new earth when all things are finally and completely made new ~ is different than His judgments, and the final Judgment. Unbelievers will endure God's wrath for eternity in... another place, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, of outer darkness... <shudder> So, yes, we are not appointed to this wrath, but to... eternal life, in the same way as those referred to in Acts 13:48, "when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

May you watch for the Lord as He comes for the Church.

Yes, ever watchful. But we will not be taken anywhere else... Unbelievers, though, as a result of the final Judgment, will... in Jesus's words in Matthew 7:23 and 25:46, "depart from (Him)"... "go away into eternal punishment." Again, yes, we are not appointed to wrath; unbelievers, who will be on Jesus's left in the final Judgment, will depart and experience that wrath forever, which will be a death, even the "second death," the "lake of fire," that John speaks of in Revelation 20:15.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Pretend Rev 14 does not say what it says. Or ignore it.

Nobody here is doing either. We just disagree, obviously, on what it (and Revelation 7) is saying. I (and others) just don't... "understand it"... <smile> ...in the same small, wooden way you do. <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Just regarding John's Revelation, I would recommend "The Returning King," by Dr. V. S. Poythress. You can read it absolutely free of charge online at that link. I know him, too... <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[The Light]

None of that adds up.
When did the first 3.5 years start ?

Or maybe there is no 7 yr anything ?

If the AC sets up his kingdom( as you seem to imply) in the middle....the middle of what?
3.5 + 3.5 equals 7.

" the middle of the "week" ", is 3.5 yrs.

You are confusing the 70 weeks of Daniel with the 7 year covenant with many.

As to the 70 weeks, they are determined upon the people of Daniel....the Jews.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the prince is 69 WEEKS.

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

After 69 weeks Messiah is cut off. He is cut off 3.5 years later.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

That leaves 3.5 years or time, times and a half a time of the 70th week of Daniel remaining which agrees with the scripture.

Daniel 12
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Conclusion - 69.5 weeks of 7 have already taken place in the 70 weeks of Daniel.

Then we have the week that begins when a 7 year covenant with many is made. The Antichrist (AN Antichrist) will confirm this covenant. This does not say this covenant is confirmed when it is made.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So why is it important to understand that there are only 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel and yet there is an end time week that will begin when a covenant with many is made?

The Jews of the 12 tribes that are across the earth cannot have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Right now, most that believe in a pretrib rapture believe that the Church will be raptured BEFORE the 7 year period begins. Since the facts are that there are only 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of 7's, the Church cannot be raptured before the 7 years begins, but they must be raptured before the great tribulation which begins in the middle of the week.

Noah was not in the ark 7 days before the flood so the Church will not be in heaven 7 years before the end.

So the final week begins before the Church is raptured, contrary to what is commonly taught. And the 7 seals will not be opened until the Church is raptured.

 

[Trekson]

Absolutely disagree. The first proclamation ~ by God, of course ~ of the Covenant of grace is Genesis 3:15. The mediator of the covenant of works was Adam, and he failed in Genesis 3. From that point on, the God's covenant of grace was in effect, and Jesus is depicted in the form of types and shadows ~ one of the most obvious being the lamb without blemish of Leviticus ~ throughout the Old Testament. Even Jesus said the whole Old Testament was about Him, in John 5:46 and indirectly in Luke 24 to the two men He spoke to after His resurrection on the road to Emmaus. The law, Trekson, was a lesser iteration of the covenant of Grace, along with the covenant of life with Adam and later Noah, and the covenant of a people and a land with Abraham, and the covenant of a king over Israel with David. Jesus is the full iteration of all those lesser covenants. And... since Adam, we have all been saved the same way, by grace through faith, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2:8. The writer of Hebrews makes that clear in Hebrews 11. So, you see a difference where there is none in substance, my friend.

There is no covenant in Gen. 3, one would have to make one up. What Gen. 3:15 is, is a prophecy that what the 1st Adam had undone, the next Adam will fix in a spiritual manner 4000 yrs. later. Grace and the law cannot exist together. There may have been grace given to individuals from time to time, but as a whole there wasn't any, spiritually, until Jesus purchased it for us w/ his blood.

Lol.
EVERY rapture verse is pretrib setting.
You can not prove otherwise.
That is why you , instead, throw generalized "safe" statements at it.
Get a bible and you will cast down your misinformation, or, be shown the word and decide to go against the bible.
(Like I am making you do.)

You'll find out soon enough.

 

[PinSeeker]

There is no covenant in Gen. 3,...

In your opinion. Yeah, totally get it. God deals with people ~ all people ~ differently than he originally dealt with Adam and Eve prior to the events of Genesis 3. This is first announced in Genesis 3:15, and is the same today, and will be until Jesus returns.

one would have to make one up...

Noone is doing that; it is what it is. There is what we call a particular grace that given to all of God's elect, and that is salvific. But to all others, a common ~ meaning given to all ~ grace, which is not salvific. Life itself is by the grace of God. And everyone, from Adam on up, is saved ~ if they are saved ~ the same way, Trekson, by grace through faith. This has been true since the events of Genesis 3.

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

. What Gen. 3:15 is, is a prophecy that what the 1st Adam had undone...

God stated to Adam and Eve (and Satan) what their lives would be like from that point forward, and also, in a veiled way, that He would rectify it Himself.

Grace and the law cannot exist together.

To put it very succinctly, Trekson, we, God's elect, are under the law of Christ (John 12:34, Romans 7:25/10:4, 1 Corinthians 9:21, Galatians 2:16/6:2. And, as I said, as Jesus said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” Like the writer of Hebrews says, "on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness(for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant." Jesus has been the guarantor of that better covenant ~ yes, the covenant of grace ~ since God's pronouncement in Genesis 3:15. And regarding the Law, Trekson, surely you do not hold to antinomianism If you do, well then that's a problem...

There may have been grace given to individuals from time to time, but as a whole there wasn't any, spiritually, until Jesus purchased it for us w/ his blood.

<chuckles> See above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Trekson]

In your opinion. Yeah, totally get it. God deals with people ~ all people ~ differently than he originally dealt with Adam and Eve prior to the events of Genesis 3. This is first announced in Genesis 3:15, and is the same today, and will be until Jesus returns.



Noone is doing that; it is what it is. There is what we call a particular grace that given to all of God's elect, and that is salvific. But to all others, a common ~ meaning given to all ~ grace, which is not salvific. Life itself is by the grace of God. And everyone, from Adam on up, is saved ~ if they are saved ~ the same way, Trekson, by grace through faith. This has been true since the events of Genesis 3.

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

God stated to Adam and Eve (and Satan) what their lives would be like from that point forward, and also, in a veiled way, that He would rectify it Himself.


To put it very succinctly, Trekson, we, God's elect, are under the law of Christ (John 12:34, Romans 7:25/10:4, 1 Corinthians 9:21, Galatians 2:16/6:2. And, as I said, as Jesus said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” Like the writer of Hebrews says, "on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness(for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God... This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant." Jesus has been the guarantor of that better covenant ~ yes, the covenant of grace ~ since God's pronouncement in Genesis 3:15. And regarding the Law, Trekson, surely you do not hold to antinomianism If you do, well then that's a problem...


<chuckles> See above.

Grace and peace to you.

Sorry, but the covenant of grace, although prophesied in a way in Gen. 3, didn't become a reality until the final sacrifice of Christ was offered. If grace abounded throughout the OT, then billions of animals died for nothing.

 

[The Light]

How can the wrath be your "short period interpretation", when the AC is descecrating the temple in the middle of Daniel's 7 years?

The day of vengeance or wrath lasts ONE YEAR.

Daniel's 7 years is chopped into what timeframe?
Or maybe the 7 years is also reframed into some other number?

There are 3.5 years left in the 70th week Daniel as I showed in the last post.
There is also a period of 7 years that begins when a covenant with many is made.

 

[The Light]

The 7 yr trib is represented in the flood, with Noah gathered BEFORE THE FLOOD.
The point you are trying make is nonsense.
There is no separation bracketing of your 3.5 years with Noah or lot.

There is no 7 year tribulation.

I do not need Noah in the ark 7 days for any reason.
Rabbit trail big time.

Noah is a picture of the rapture of the Church. And Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood.
Lot is a picture of the rapture of the Jews. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Both TIME FRAMES of Noah, and Lot, DO NOT have any of your separation of 3.5 years.

We don't know what day Noah was shut in the ark..........Lot is irrelevant.

Both examples, by Jesus, are a gathering, THEN JUDGEMENT.
7 yr period follows the rapture of the bride.

Sorry. Noah is a picture of the rapture of the Church and Lot is a picture of the second rapture.

 

[The Light]

We disagree on the sense in which what you say here are true. They are true, but not in the sense that you say them. In this life, we cannot absolutely remove ourselves ~ or be removed ~ from "all these things."

We will be removed when the Lord comes for His bride, before the great tribulation. We will stand before the Son of man.

In the sense that we will be delivered through it, protected and kept in Christ, our Lord and savior, our Redeemer and Deliverer, our Prince of Peace.

He never removes them from anything, but delivers them through it, walking with them throughout, never leaving them nor forsaking them, because... His steadfast love endures forever. Noah, Lot, Moses, the Israelites.... never left creation; they did not escape in that sense, and nor shall we.

Noah left the surface of the earth, unbelievers remained. Lot left Sodom. Unbelievers remained.

 

[Wick Stick]

I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine)

Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.

The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second (Chapter xvi)
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself"

Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millennium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii

Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”

None of these quotes seem to deal with a rapture, at least not in the way that modern Pentecostal and Evangelical churches teach it. There is no ascending to heaven here. A few of these include a gathering, but in all cases, the living are gathered to Christ at his descent.

Most simply express that there is a coming Tribulation.

 

[jeffweeder]

Noah is a picture of the second coming of Christ where only the righteous in Christ survive...., and so is Lot.
All in sodom were destroyed.

Jesus said so himself so there shouldn't be any problem.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[The Light]

No, I think the 6th seal is right before the 7th trumpet and then the 7th seal is at the same time as the 7th trumpet.

This is completely illogical. The 7th seal contains 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

So when the 7th seal opens, you have the 7th trumpet occurring. You just skip the 6 trumpets and 6 vials and pretend they don't happen after the 7th seal is opened.

That's just beating everything into place with a sledgehammer to fit what you think, instead of following the order that things occur in.

No, we don't see the great multitude in heaven at the marriage supper during the supposed one year wrath of God.

The Word of God says wrath is one year from the time the 7th seal is opened to the time the Lord and the armies leave heaven for Armageddon. Your view skips those 6 trumpets and 6 vials.

That's all in your imagination. The bride/wife is not even ready for the marriage supper until the day Jesus returns (see Revelation 19), so there is no marriage supper in heaven.

Do you think that the Lord treats his bride to watching vultures eating the dead. You should familiarize yourself with the Jewish wedding after you finish studying the feasts of God.

I showed you, using scripture (1 Thess 5:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10-12), what we will escape that unbelievers won't escape and it's the wrath that will come on the day Jesus comes as a thief in the night. That wrath will result in the destruction of all unbelievers because it will burn up the earth. As Paul said in relation to unbelievers on that day: "they shall not escape". But, we will escape God's wrath that will occur on the day Christ returns. There's no reason whatsoever for us to be raptured any time before that day.

You skip the 6 trumpets and 6 vials of wrath. He does not come as a thief until Armageddon.

LOL! This argument is as weak as it gets. That verse (John 17:15) shows that being kept from evil does not require being taken off of the earth. Yet, that is how you interpret Revelation 3:10, as if being kept from temptation and evil requires being taken off of the earth. No, it does not. And, notice that the verse isn't talking about God's wrath. Your argument is that we need to be taken off of the earth to avoid God's wrath, right? So, YOU are the one taking a verse (Revelation 3:10) out of context.

Nah. That tired old out of context argument cuts no butter.

 

[ewq1938]

Noah is a picture of the second coming of Christ where only the righteous in Christ survive...., and so is Lot.
All in sodom were destroyed.

How about the unrighteous in Europe and Africa? Were they killed also when God killed those in Sodom?

 

[Wick Stick]

Noah is a picture of the second coming of Christ where only the righteous in Christ survive....

Noah and the flood is a picture of baptism. 1Peter tells us so...

1Peter 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[jeffweeder]

How about the unrighteous in Europe and Africa? Were they killed also when God killed those in Sodom?

You miss the Lord's point
As it was in the days of Lot and sodom, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
All in sodom were destroyed.
As it was in the days of Noah and the world, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
All in the world were destroyed.

Matt 25 is about the coming of the Son of man saving those who are his and destroying the rest.

You want to argue with the word go ahead.

 

[jeffweeder]

Noah and the flood is a picture of baptism. 1Peter tells us so...

1Peter 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Jesus also said its a picture of his coming, where the baptized are glorified and the unclean are destroyed.
Do you believe this?

 

[Wick Stick]

Jesus also said its a picture of his coming, where the baptized are glorified and the unclean are destroyed.
Do you believe this?

Matthew 24?

The ones who are "raptured" there are the wicked, to their destruction