Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is completely illogical. The 7th seal contains 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

LOL. You say what I said is completely illogical and you follow that up by saying something completely illogical. It's always a complete waste of time talking to you.

So when the 7th seal opens, you have the 7th trumpet occurring. You just skip the 6 trumpets and 6 vials and pretend they don't happen after the 7th seal is opened.

LOL. You are a comedian. I skip nothing. I recognize that there seals, trumpets and vials are parallel. You can't even discern that Jesus returns at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet. Read Revelation 11:15-18. How can all of the vials happen after the kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and His Son, and after those who destroy the earth are destroyed and after the dead are judged? Talk about completely illogical.

That's just beating everything into place with a sledgehammer to fit what you think, instead of following the order that things occur in.

You have no clue about the proper order that things occur in because you think everything is chronological. You're not recognizing that the book of Revelation contains recapitulations or parallel passages that all culminate with the second coming of Christ.

The Word of God says wrath is one year from the time the 7th seal is opened to the time the Lord and the armies leave heaven for Armageddon. Your view skips those 6 trumpets and 6 vials.

No, it does not say that and my view skips nothing. All you are able to do to try to refute my view is lie about me.

Do you think that the Lord treats his bride to watching vultures eating the dead.

LOL! So, you take that literally? Do you also think that Jesus will slay His enemies with a literal sword that literally comes out of His mouth?

You should familiarize yourself with the Jewish wedding after you finish studying the feasts of God.

LOL. Show me in scripture where that is necessary in order to understand end times events. Good luck. You can't do it. You should familiar yourself with asking God for wisdom so that you stop believing nonsense (James 1:5-7).

You skip the 6 trumpets and 6 vials of wrath.

How many times are you going to repeat this lie? Just because I don't interpret them the way you do doesn't mean I skip them. Stop your lies.

He does not come as a thief until Armageddon.

When He comes from heaven for the one and only time in the future, He will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and will bring sudden destruction upon all unbelievers on the face of the earth by way of fire from which they shall not escape (Luke 21:33-36, 1 Thess 5:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Nah. That tired old out of context argument cuts no butter.

LOL. That's like saying 1 + 1 = 2 is tired, old and out of context and it actually equals 3. LOL. You are hilarious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You miss the Lord's point
As it was in the days of Lot and sodom, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
All in sodom were destroyed.
As it was in the days of Noah and the world, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
All in the world were destroyed.

Matt 25 is about the coming of the Son of man saving those who are his and destroying the rest.

You want to argue with the word go ahead.

Right. In addition to what you said here, I believe that Jesus compared the destruction that will occur at His second coming to what happened to Sodom in the sense that Sodom was destroyed by fire. Likewise, the earth will be destroyed by fire when Jesus returns (2 Peter 3:10-12). The comparison of the destruction that will occur when Jesus returns to the flood in Noah's day was for the purpose of showing the scope of the destruction that will occur when He returns, which will be global.

 

[Wick Stick]

the main concept is they all believed the church would be undergoing the GT, not Israel. They will be seeing the culmination of the ToJT that, imo, began in 70ad.

ToJT? Time of..?

Israel obviously underwent a time of tribulation during the First Jewish-Roman War (66-73AD). The church avoided that to a certain extent when they heeded Jesus' warning to flee to the hills when they saw Jerusalem compassed by armies.

Israel also underwent a time of tribulation during the Second Jewish-Roman War (132-136AD), but for some reason Christians get annoyed when I point out this fulfillment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We will be removed when the Lord comes for His bride, before the great tribulation. We will stand before the Son of man.

Why would Jesus come for His bride before she is ready to be married? She is not said to be ready until Jesus returns (Revelation 19), which will be after the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27).

Noah left the surface of the earth, unbelievers remained.

No, all unbelievers were killed. Jesus said that is how it will be when He returns as well (Matthew 24:37-39). No unbelievers will survive His return, as other passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 make clear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So a localized slaying of some people but not a global slaughter. That's exactly what Premill teaches. Amill does not teach that though.

So, just ignore the comparison Jesus made to the flood in Noah's day then. What He was indicating in the comparison to the destruction of Sodom by fire was the means by which unbelievers will be destroyed at His second coming, which will be by fire, as 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 indicate. The comparison of the destruction that will occur at Christ's second coming to the flood in Noah's day shows the scope of the destruction (global).

My position matches the word. Other people's positions contradict it.

Only in your imagination.

 

[Trekson]

Oh, so now you're admitting that there is such a thing, at least... <chuckles> As I said, though, it wasn't "prophesied," it was pronounced... God said, since this has happened, since Adam has done this, this is how things will be from now on, and this is what I will do. I mean it's fine with me to say it was prophesied then if you want to, but it was just as applicable all the way back to Abraham as it is to us; what might be helpful to you to see this is to read what Paul writes of Abraham in Romans 4:

"What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.' Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised."​

What Paul says about Abraham's righteousness being counted to him, along with the fact that this was made to be the case by God before he was circumcised, are two very, very important things to be seen here. It is solely by the grace of God. You see?


Christ was "offered" then, in that way. As I say, Hebrews 11 is very clear that we are all ~ all, from that time forward, saved in the same way, by grace through faith. Abraham is the first mentioned there.


It did... and does still...


The animals, Trekson, the animal sacrifices that God commanded the Israelites to make, were all types and shadows of the Lamb of God, Jesus, and pointed forward to Him, made in faith that God would honor those sacrifices in light of the true Sacrifice still at that time to come. He is the true Lamb without blemish. The sacrifices the Israelites of old made were not themselves salvific ~ that is true only of Jesus's sacrifice on the cross ~ but again, the animal sacrifices they were required to make pointed forward to Jesus's death and resurrection and were made in faith that God would honor those sacrifices in light of the true Sacrifice still at that time to come... made in faith that God would provide the true sacrifice, just as Abraham said to Isaac in Genesis 22:8, "Abraham said, 'God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.' " As it concerned the Israelites it was by grace through faith form them just as much as it is for us now. We don't sacrifice animals now because Jesus was God's final sacrifice, which made obsolete the practice of animal sacrifice.

So no, billions of animals did not die for nothing, but... well, no need to repeat what I just said. Again, referring to Hebrews 7, "For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God." And now, we Christians are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, as Paul says in Romans 12:1, pointing backward to Christ's true sacrifice (in view of it) and pointing forward to Christ's return... "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."

Grace and peace to you.

Faith w/ the applied righteousness, and grace are two different things. I agree about the remnant and their faith.

 

[Trekson]

ToJT? Time of..?

Israel obviously underwent a time of tribulation during the First Jewish-Roman War (66-73AD). The church avoided that to a certain extent when they heeded Jesus' warning to flee to the hills when they saw Jerusalem compassed by armies.

Israel also underwent a time of tribulation during the Second Jewish-Roman War (132-136AD), but for some reason Christians get annoyed when I point out this fulfillment.

They've been experiencing the Time of Jacob's Trouble since prior to 70ad. It's duration of almost two thousand years is what makes it "a time like no other". Israel will be "be saved out of it" when Zech. 12:10 is fulfilled within the context of the 70th week. That's the main reason for the gap and so the prophecies of the church could be fulfilled. The salvation of Israel is in His timing, not ours.

 

[quietthinker]

I have an ongoing experiment that I do at the grocery store. I smile at every single person that I passed by.
Most people smile back, but I can tell they are "taken back" by a stranger offering a smile. It is unexpected by them, and most of the time they smile back
Now sometimes I see people that have a lot of hurt on their face and they don't smile back because they can't
That part of them has become inoperable, and so I say a quick Prayer for them.
IT is my ongoing experiment.

 

[PinSeeker]

Faith w/ the applied righteousness, and grace are two different things.

Yes, they are, but you're missing ~ or avoiding ~ the point. Read what Paul said in Romans 4 again. It's not difficult.

I agree about the remnant and their faith.

Well, good.

But faith itself is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9). And faith is given to us by.... Somebody. <smile> We do not manufacture our own faith; we cannot assure ourselves of anything unseen (God does this), and we cannot convict ourselves of things hoped for (the Holy Spirit does this).

And all this is due to God's (fill in the blank... you can do it, I know <smile>). Which is the point. <smile> God deals with us now, all of mankind, in the same way, in His common (again, common in the sense that it is given to all in this life) grace. If he gave us what we really deserve, none of us would be here. <smile>

To some, however, His elect, He gives His particular grace of salvation, and each of us, each at our appointed time, are born again of the Spirit, given this faith that we now have, and are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

It's all about God's grace. This is the covenant that He has made with man, and it began after the events of Genesis 3.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Dan 7:25
And he shall speak
[great] words against the
most High, and shall wear
out the saints of the most
High, and think to change
times and laws: and they
shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and
the dividing of time.


You will have a hard time coming up with something to reframe that.

Why would I need to reframe this? ............and they shall be given into his hand until a time, times and the dividing of time.

That would be 3.5 years..........exactly what I am saying.

The AC is clearly in power way before the midpoint of the 7 yrs.

There is more than one Antichrist. There is the beast of the earth and the beast of the sea.....Nimrod.

Trying to say the white horse rider is not the AC is way off.

Please reread my post. I am saying that the white horse rider of the first seal is the beast of the earth, AN Antichrist.

In the last week ( 7yr Time period/7 yr trib) the AC descecrates the temple at the HALFWAY POINT.
HALFWAY THROUG THE TRIB, THE AC DESCECRATES THE TEMPLE.

Please provide one single solitary verse that shows there is a 7 year tribulation.

HALFWAY THRU THE FINAL WEEK, THE ANTICHRIST DESECRATES THE TEMPLE...............The leaves the remaining 3.5 years of the 70th week of Daniel.

AFTER that halfway point, is the wrath.

Please study. After the halfway point is the great tribulation when the Jews are hunted and killed. Immediately after the tribulation of those days Jesus comes and sends His angels to gather elect from heaven and earth. Then the 7th seal is opened and the trumpets and vials of Gods ONE YEAR wrath occur. At the 7th trumpet/7th vial Armageddon occurs when Jesus speaks the Word with the armies of heaven following.

WE KNOW this because the wrath immediate follows the gathering of the Jews in Rev 14.

The gathering of the Jews in Rev 14 occurs at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation. It is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

There are "reasons", why you say the white horse rider is not the AC.
False reasons.

Maybe I made a typing error. Please show me the quote that I made where I said that the rider of the white was not AN Antichrist. There are two Antichrists. The 7th king beast of the earth and the eighth king beast of the sea.

 

[The Light]

The 4 horsemen sent by heaven, the 2 witnesses, the 144,000 sealed, the flying scorpions, the innumerable number ( Those saints left behind), and the plagues by the 4 horsemen, as well as the billions slaughtered by the AC, all happen AFTER THE RAPTURE.

Exactly.

You have the trib STARTING at the halfway point, by thinking that a "non confired covenant", with no tribulation, decides the start of the 7 yr period.
( preterism)

Preterism? Please.

A covenant with many starts the final week.

Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You are making an incorrect assumption that the covenant with many for one week in confirmed when it is made.

The covenant with many can be confirmed or strengthened by the Antichrist AFTER it is made, which we know is true because Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood. The Church will not be in heaven 7 years before the judgement.

News flash ....the white horse rider has a "BOW"...(A COVENANT)
God used a bow in Genesis as a specific representation of covenant.
"I have set my BOW in the sky...."
God also used "BOW" , as a component, in description of the AC.

According to you, God can not use the same component.

News flash. The rider on the white horse is the false Christ that all these false religions of the world are waiting for. The false Christ is Tammuz.

Ezekiel 8
13 He said also unto me, Turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations that they do.

14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

Tammuz is Horus...........see the back of a dollar bill..........the eye of Horus is there.

Horus is Apollo.......etc. etc. etc.

The false Christ carries a bow.

 

[The Light]

Nope. Nope. Nope.
I am not USING YOUR PRISM.
That...is the difference.
Your model Fails at mat 24.
"AFTER THE TRIBULATION..."...YES INDEED!!!
AFTER THE 7 YR TRIB .

And yet you cannot produce one single scripture that shows that there is 7 year tribulation. We know that is not a 7 year tribulation because the great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal..........and the wrath of God is the 7th seal which lasts for one year.

Your model is saying that Jesus RETURNS IN POWER AND GREAT GLORY during the trib

No, No, No.

Jesus returns IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS..............6TH SEAL.

The 7th seal remains.

without Rev 19's return in power and great glory on white horses.
The ONLY PLACE Jesus returns in power and great glory is REV 19, on white horses, which is AFTER THE 7 YR TRIB.
That alone is beyond problematic for your timeline.

Why would you make stuff up without using the Word of God? You come up with this without any scriptural support. Whatever you THINK, without one single bit of scriptural support.

In Revelation 19 do you see any angels gathering the elect from heaven and earth.

What I see is Jesus coming for Armageddon with the armies of heaven.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. Simple. With scriptural support of the sings of the sun, moon and stars.

You claim.
1) the white horse rider is not the AC

Where have I said this?

2) The AC holding a bow, (that God uses as representation of a covenant), Is actually not a covenant at all.

He does hold a bow. He is the false Christ and carries a bow.

3) that Jesus returns twice in power and great glory, when that invented concept is unbiblical.

You are inventing the concept that Jesus does not come in power and glory at the 6th seal. Even though the Word of God says that immediately after the tribulation the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. This is exactly what the Word of God says happens at the 6th seal. But you can't accept the written Word of God. You have to go by what you THINK. No scriptural support, just what you think. And deny what is written.

4) that Noah and Lot are used as 2 separate comings...which is absurd.

Fig tree has two harvests.
There are two raptures
There is a grain harvest and the fruit harvest.
The Lord Himself comes for the Church and He sends His angles to come for the Jews
Jacob had two brides.
Wake up.

5) that some 7 day period prior to the flood, that I supposedly use, causes me some confusion.
( I have never thought that or believed it.)
It changes nothing and I don't need it to defend the biblical 7 yr trib period in daniel.

Because we can prove that there is no 7 year tribulation. Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

None of your scriptures agree with your claims.

Like Jesus coming immediately after the tribulation of those days when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven AT THE 6TH SEAL?

 

[The Light]

QUOTE
"Great. I can show you 100% proof that the great tribulation at the end of the age is OVER at the 6th seal, and the 7th seal is the wrath of God"

Rev 6 ...the sixth seal.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"

Now, lets take a honest look, without your prism.
Jesus returns after the week of Daniel ( to frame it without the "7yr trib", which your prism casts down)
That is on white horses...just a fact.

I don't even know what you are talking about.

Are you trying to tell me that your think that the 6th seal is Armageddon?

Armageddon is the 7th trumpet/ 7th vial.

The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is the coming in Matthew 24. This occurs at the 6th seal with scriptural proof being the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Why you are unable to see this is beyond....................

Now I wonder if the rest of that passage fits the white horse return???
" ... And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; aid to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb...."
That is LOOKING FORWARD TO the second coming on white horses.

Hello...that is what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING in the 6th seal.
But because your PRISM can not process "tribulation" , you missed the second coming on white horses , and think there are 2 comings in power and great glory.
You missed it chronologically,
Rev 6 is LOOKING FORWARD TO THE SECOND COMING.
Your deal is literally impossible.

Wow. I was right. Now you think that the 6th seal is Armageddon. I think you missed the 7th seal which contain 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

Let's pretend that the 6th seal is the 7th seal. Oh boy.

 

[Trekson]

Yes, they are, but you're missing ~ or avoiding ~ the point. Read what Paul said in Romans 4 again. It's not difficult.


Well, good.

But faith itself is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9). And faith is given to us by.... Somebody. <smile> We do not manufacture our own faith; we cannot assure ourselves of anything unseen (God does this), and we cannot convict ourselves of things hoped for (the Holy Spirit does this).

And all this is due to God's (fill in the blank... you can do it, I know <smile>). Which is the point. <smile> God deals with us now, all of mankind, in the same way, in His common (again, common in the sense that it is given to all in this life) grace. If he gave us what we really deserve, none of us would be here. <smile>

To some, however, His elect, He gives His particular grace of salvation, and each of us, each at our appointed time, are born again of the Spirit, given this faith that we now have, and are being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

It's all about God's grace. This is the covenant that He has made with man, and it began after the events of Genesis 3.

Grace and peace to you.

I have to disagree w/ you on this one too. The faith spoken of in 1 Co. 12:9 isn't given to all, only to some, it's a deeper level which is why it's one of the "gifts". As the context shows, we don't "all" get "all" the gifts. Faith in God, in and of itself, is a free will choice. We hear the message, we believe the message and we choose to believe in God which actuates our faith on a spiritual level. Faith isn't just a spiritual reality, it's also secular. We have faith that when we flick the switch the light will come on or when we turn the key the car will start, that our job will always be there, that we won't die going back and forth from work, etc. Thus, the feelings of dismay and distress from ourselves or our loved ones when those things don't go as expected. The OT remnant though, still had to make the sacrifices and follow the law, their faith in God, wasn't sufficient, in and of itself, but now it is. The law was one dispensation, the gospel of grace is a different dispensation spoken of by Paul. Even in the Strong's the OT grace, H2580 is a different level from the christian grace in G5485.

 

[Taken]

"The Church will not be in heaven before the 7 years begin as Noah was not in the ark 7 days before the flood."

Disagree.

Noah WAS in the Ark, 7 days BEFORE the Rain Began.

Gen 7:
[1] And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[jeffweeder]

Right. In addition to what you said here, I believe that Jesus compared the destruction that will occur at His second coming to what happened to Sodom in the sense that Sodom was destroyed by fire. Likewise, the earth will be destroyed by fire when Jesus returns (2 Peter 3:10-12). The comparison of the destruction that will occur when Jesus returns to the flood in Noah's day was for the purpose of showing the scope of the destruction that will occur when He returns, which will be global.

Really good addition Eric, thankyou.

 

[PinSeeker]

I have to disagree w/ you on this one too.

Okay, cool. But it is what it is. <smile>

The faith spoken of in 1 Co. 12:9 isn't given to all, only to some, it's a deeper level which is why it's one of the "gifts".

I did not say faith ~ salvific faith ~ was given to all, but only to those of us who have been saved. This faith, Trekson, by definition, as I said, is given by God. We have the very definition of faith, in Hebrews 11:1... "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." We do not assure or convict ourselves of these things. We cannot, as self-assurance is really no assurance at all; it has to come to us from outside ourselves, has to be given by someone other than ourselves. And again, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-9, "God... made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved... by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." I know this is not your intent, but

As the context shows, we don't "all" get "all" the gifts.

Well, we Christians are not all gifted by the Spirit in the area of faith. But that's not to say that there are any Christians who don't have this salvific faith; that would be a contradiction of what Paul says in Ephesians 2. But yes, in Paul'sl context here in 1 Corinthians 12, the Christians who are especially gifted in faith, which like the other gifts is "empowered by the Spirit and apportioned to each..." (who is particularly gifted in this way) "...individually as He wills," can help other Christians in their faith, not in the sense of strengthening or giving them more faith, as only the Spirit can do that, but in the sense that the particular spiritual giftings that we have, whether wisdom, knowledge, faith, etc., are "for the common good," as Paul says there.

Faith in God, in and of itself, is a free will choice.

Even according to the definition of faith, again, given to us in Hebrews 11:1, "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen," this cannot be true. I think you don't mean to do this, but in this statement, you make faith in God out to be a work of man and somehow meriting God's favor, which in effect makes God's grace (unmerited favor) into something other than grace, which is what Paul is saying in Romans 11:5-6, "at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace"... and a contradiction of what he has just said in Romans 9:16 about being on of God's elect, that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy", and what he says in Ephesians 2:8, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works..." John also says we Christians "were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13).

We hear the message, we believe the message and we choose to believe in God which actuates our faith on a spiritual level.

Yes, I agree with this, actually... faith comes by hearing, as Paul says in Romans 10. But that word 'comes' is a key word there... <chuckles> As Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3, "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Faith isn't just a spiritual reality, it's also secular.

Any secular faith... or faith of secular people... is a dead faith, which is to say not given by God and not effectual unto salvation, as James speaks of it in the James 2. Our good works are the result of and the natural outworking of the faith we have been given; if there are no good works, then any faith the person may have is a dead faith.

We have faith that when we flick the switch the light will come on or when we turn the key the car will start, that our job will always be there, that we won't die going back and forth from work, etc. Thus, the feelings of dismay and distress from ourselves or our loved ones when those things don't go as expected.

That's hopeful thinking, Trekson, and this salvific faith that we have is not that. <smile> It is a surety, the assurance of God of our salvation, which only He can give.

The OT remnant though, still had to make the sacrifices and follow the law, their faith in God, wasn't sufficient...

Disagree. Their actions were done in the faith they had been given, and outward evidence of it. And remember, all that is needed is faith as a mustard seed.

....the gospel of grace is a different dispensation spoken of by Paul.

Ohhhhh, "dispensation..." <chuckles> That word/concept is so... troublesome... No, how people were required to live out their faith was different for the Israelites of old was different ~ because Jesus had not come yet ~ but the Gospel (good news) of grace, first proclaimed in Genesis 3:15, as been the same in substance ever since then. Again, fir Again, God has dealt with people in the same way since the events of Genesis 3, by grace. As I said, if it weren't for God's grace ~ if God actually gave us what we deserve ~ none of us would be here... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

 

[PinSeeker]

"the earth will be destroyed by fire when Jesus returns (2 Peter 3:10-12). "

Actually, Peter says there in verse 12 that "the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." He says nothing about the earth itself being "destroyed by fire" or anything else. The earth will then finally be completely cleansed of all sin, and thus made new, as God says through John in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new." He is not making new things. <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But faith itself is a gift of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:9).

That verse is not talking about the faith that all Christians have. It's not talking about saving faith. It's talking about a spiritual gift given to some Christians after they become saved. It's not a gift that's given to someone that results in their salvation, in other words. That verse is talking about a gift of the Spirit that is not given to all Christians, just as all of the other spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12 are not given to all Christians. You are not reading that verse in context.

1 Corinthians 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Are all Christians given "the word of wisdom through the Spirit"? No. Are all Christians given "the word of knowledge through the same Spirit"? No. Are all Christians given "gifts of healings by the same Spirit"? No. Are all Christians given the gift of "the working of miracles"? No. Are all Christians given the gift of prophecy? No. Are all Christians given the gift of "discerning the spirits"? No. Are all Christians given the gift of "different kinds of tongues"? No. Are all Christians the gift of "the interpretation of tongues"? No. So, neither are all Christians given the spiritual gift of faith. The spiritual gift of faith is given to some Christians to allow them to do extraordinary or supernatural things or to have extraordinary or supernatural insight (notice it is listed right before the gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy and discerning of spirits) that require an extra measure of faith to perform. But, even then, a Christian has to submit to the Spirit and allow Him to exercise that gift through them. None of these spiritual gifts just happen without anything required by the person. It requires the cooperation and submisson of the person to the Holy Spirit in order for the Spirit to exercise those gifts. Christians are told not to quench the Spirit and to not greive the Spirit, so our cooperation with the Holy Spirit is required in order for the Spirit to work through us.

And faith is given to us by.... Somebody. <smile> We do not manufacture our own faith; we cannot assure ourselves of anything unseen (God does this), and we cannot convict ourselves of things hoped for (the Holy Spirit does this).

Disagree. Yes, the Holy Spirit speaks to people's hearts and convicts people of their sins and of their need for a Savior, but that doesn't mean we have no responsibility to respond to the Holy Spirit. He can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Scripture repeatedly indicates that faith is an act that we are required to do ourselves rather than God giving it to us and basically doing it for us, as you believe.

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Joshua 24:14 “Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! 15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

All of the above passages indicate that we must choose to humble ourselves before God and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that God the Father sent. Repentance and faith are not just given to us. We are expected to repent and believe willingly by choice. These passages and many more make that clear.

Then there are passages like these...

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Why would our faith make God pleased with us if it's something He gives us? That makes no sense. He would instead be pleased with Himself for giving it to us if that how faith worked. Why would He reward those who diligently seek Him if He is the one who causes people to diligently seek Him? That simply does not make any sense. He would instead reward Himself if that was the case.

Matthew 8:5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.” 7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

Why would Jesus, who is God, have marveled at the faith of the centurion if God gives people faith? Does He somehow forget how much faith He gives to people and is then caught by surprise when He sees how much faith that He gave to someone? Was Jesus thinking to Himself: "Wow, I gave this guy greater faith than anyone else. I totally forgot that I did that! I'm amazed at Myself for how much faith I gave Him!"? No, of course not. He marveled at the centurion's faith because it was the centurion's own faith that He chose to place in Jesus and he had more faith than anyone else that Jesus had come across while He was on the earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"the earth will be destroyed by fire when Jesus returns (2 Peter 3:10-12). "

Is there some reason why you didn't show who said this (it was me)?

Actually, Peter says there in verse 12 that "the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." He says nothing about the earth itself being "destroyed by fire" or anything else.

Peter said that the earth itself and the works that are in it will be burned up. Why did you neglect to include the part where Peter said the earth itself will be burned up along with "the works that are in it"?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

I'm not saying that Peter indicated that the entire planet earth, even to the core, would be annihilated by fire. No, I believe he was saying the entire surface of the earth itself along with all the man-made things on it will be burned up and the earth will be renewed, resulting in the new earth where only righteousness will dwell (2 Peter 3:13).

The earth will then finally be completely cleansed of all sin, and thus made new, as God says through John in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new." He is not making new things. <smile>

I didn't say He was making new things. He will be burning up existing things on the earth (how else will He rid the earth of wicked things?) and then renewing the heavens and the earth by fire (the way in which He will make all things new), resulting in the new heavens and new earth.