Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[jeffweeder]

Matthew 24?

The ones who are "raptured" there are the wicked, to their destruction

What verses are you referring too.

 

[Wick Stick]

What verses are you referring too.

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[jeffweeder]

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

At the end of the day one belongs to the Lord and the other doesnt.
This doesnt change the dynamic of Jesus words in Matt 25 when he comes to separate his sheep from the goats, or the wheat from the weeds.

Jesus- Matt 13
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

 

[ewq1938]

You miss the Lord's point
As it was in the days of Lot and sodom, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
All in sodom were destroyed.

So a localized slaying of some people but not a global slaughter. That's exactly what Premill teaches. Amill does not teach that though.

As it was in the days of Noah and the world, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
All in the world were destroyed.

Not all, same exact lesson taught as the example of Lot taught.

Matt 25 is about the coming of the Son of man saving those who are his and destroying the rest.\

That's not what the bible teaches.

You want to argue with the word go ahead.

My position matches the word. Other people's positions contradict it.

 

[Wick Stick]

At the end of the day one belongs to the Lord and the other doesnt.
This doesnt change the dynamic of Jesus words in Matt 25 when he comes to separate his sheep from the goats, or the wheat from the weeds.

Jesus- Matt 13
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Yes, like I said, these verses also demonstrate that the ones who are "raptured" aka gathered, are the evil ones that are burned.

These verses don't support the idea of believers being carried off to heaven at Jesus' return.

 

[jeffweeder]

So a localized slaying of some people but not a global slaughter.

The passage is dealing with Gods intervention in sodom , not the world.
None survived, proving Gods' intervention once the last of his people fled without looking back.

Not all, same exact lesson taught as the example of Lot taught.

Yes all. everything that had the breath of life perished, unless on the ark. 8 people

That's not what the bible teaches.

LOL
God commands all people everywhere to repent before Jesus returns at the second coming to judge eternally....act 17

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes, like I said, these verses also demonstrate that the ones who are "raptured" aka gathered, are the evil ones that are burned.

These verses don't support the idea of believers being carried off to heaven at Jesus' return.

Believers are caught to be with him forever in the place prepared. matt 25.

 

[Wick Stick]

Believers are caught to be with him forever in the place prepared. matt 25.

You can support that from several places. Matt 25 isn't one of them, though. The people carried away there are the ones destroyed.

 

[jeffweeder]

You can support that from several places. Matt 25 isn't one of them, though.

Jesus comes and gathers us to his right,

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

fully supported and corroborated by Jn 14 AND MANY OTHER SCRIPTURES.

The people carried away there are the ones destroyed.

What do you mean carried away in matt 25?

 

[Wick Stick]

Jesus comes and gathers us to his right,

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

fully supported and corroborated by Jn 14 AND MANY OTHER SCRIPTURES.

Like I said, you can support that from several places. 1Th 4 is another. But Matt 25 isn't one of them. Different event referenced there.

What do you mean carried away in matt 25?

I believe paralambano is the word there.

 

[Trekson]

None of these quotes seem to deal with a rapture, at least not in the way that modern Pentecostal and Evangelical churches teach it. There is no ascending to heaven here. A few of these include a gathering, but in all cases, the living are gathered to Christ at his descent.

Most simply express that there is a coming Tribulation.

The rapture is possibility number two, the main concept is they all believed the church would be undergoing the GT, not Israel. They will be seeing the culmination of the ToJT that, imo, began in 70ad.

 

[quietthinker]

Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders​

hmmm, well I don't know about those guys but I have rapturous thoughts when pretty girls smile at me!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where do you dream up these non-existent problems?
The great tribulation is on believers.
The wrath of God is on unbelievers.
Simple.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal.........marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
The wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.
Simple.


There are two raptures.

The first rapture will be the Church. It will be like days of Noah. When the great tribulation begins the Church will already be in heaven as the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

The second rapture will be the Jews, the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. So will it be when the Jews are raptured at the 6th seal, destruction will come in the day of vengeance.

The woman, Israel, those that flee to a place of protection will remain on the earth during the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath. Scriptural fact, not what someone chooses to think.

Both brides will be in heaven at the marriage supper.


Please produce one single solitary verse that says that there is a 7 year tribulation. This should be no problem, if it is true.

I can show you where the tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God begins at the 7th seal. That settles the issue.

We have scriptural fact. But you don't want to believe what the scripture says. You want to believe what you THINK.


There is a week that will begin when a 7 year covenant with many is made. Is there a 7 year tribulation? No. Is Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood? No.

Things will not heat up until the Church is raptured. The Church has to be raptured before the great tribulation, not before the week begins.


What are you talking about. Of course the rider on the white horse is AN Antichrist. This is the 7th king, and the beast of the earth.

BUT The rider on the white horse does not kick off the final week. The week kicks off when a covenant with many is made. That does not mean the seals have been opened. The seals will not be opened until the Church is raptured. The Church WILL NOT be raptured before the 7 year period begins. Is Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood. No.


The false Christ carries a bow because he is Horus..........who is Tammuz. Look on the back of the dollar bill and you will see the eye of Horus. The world awaits their false Messiah.

Again. The final 7 years begins when a covenant with many is made. Things will begin building up but do not explode until the Church is raptured before the great tribulation. When the Antichrist confirms the covenant with many you will know that he is the Secretary General of the United Nations and will be given the Stephanos crown the sign of the UN.

Which proves absolutely nothing. Show me a scripture that shows there is a 7 year tribulation. Show me a scripture that says that the covenant with many is made and then immediately confirmed.

They are not there and will not be there because Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood.


Can a 7 year covenant be made in 2023 and confirmed in 2026?

There absolutely is no 7 year tribulation. There only remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel. That 3.5 years will begin when the AOD is set up in the midst of the week. The Church will already be in heaven before the great tribulation.

I can show you a study where tribuation is used by God for believers.
Here is one:
Rev 2:22
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Dan 7:25
And he shall speak
[great] words against the
most High, and shall wear
out the saints of the most
High, and think to change
times and laws: and they
shall be given into his hand
until a time and times and
the dividing of time.


You will have a hard time coming up with something to reframe that.

The AC is clearly in power way before the midpoint of the 7 yrs.
Trying to say the white horse rider is not the AC is way off.
We see those ones left behind martyred there in Dan 7.

Where do you dream up these non-existent problems?
The great tribulation is on believers.
The wrath of God is on unbelievers.
Simple.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal.........marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
The wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.
Simple.


There are two raptures.

The first rapture will be the Church. It will be like days of Noah. When the great tribulation begins the Church will already be in heaven as the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

The second rapture will be the Jews, the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. So will it be when the Jews are raptured at the 6th seal, destruction will come in the day of vengeance.

The woman, Israel, those that flee to a place of protection will remain on the earth during the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath. Scriptural fact, not what someone chooses to think.

Both brides will be in heaven at the marriage supper.


Please produce one single solitary verse that says that there is a 7 year tribulation. This should be no problem, if it is true.

I can show you where the tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God begins at the 7th seal. That settles the issue.

We have scriptural fact. But you don't want to believe what the scripture says. You want to believe what you THINK.


There is a week that will begin when a 7 year covenant with many is made. Is there a 7 year tribulation? No. Is Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood? No.

Things will not heat up until the Church is raptured. The Church has to be raptured before the great tribulation, not before the week begins.


What are you talking about. Of course the rider on the white horse is AN Antichrist. This is the 7th king, and the beast of the earth.

BUT The rider on the white horse does not kick off the final week. The week kicks off when a covenant with many is made. That does not mean the seals have been opened. The seals will not be opened until the Church is raptured. The Church WILL NOT be raptured before the 7 year period begins. Is Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood. No.


The false Christ carries a bow because he is Horus..........who is Tammuz. Look on the back of the dollar bill and you will see the eye of Horus. The world awaits their false Messiah.

Again. The final 7 years begins when a covenant with many is made. Things will begin building up but do not explode until the Church is raptured before the great tribulation. When the Antichrist confirms the covenant with many you will know that he is the Secretary General of the United Nations and will be given the Stephanos crown the sign of the UN.

Which proves absolutely nothing. Show me a scripture that shows there is a 7 year tribulation. Show me a scripture that says that the covenant with many is made and then immediately confirmed.

They are not there and will not be there because Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood.


Can a 7 year covenant be made in 2023 and confirmed in 2026?

There absolutely is no 7 year tribulation. There only remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel. That 3.5 years will begin when the AOD is set up in the midst of the week. The Church will already be in heaven before the great tribulation.

QUOTE
"Again. The final 7 years begins when a covenant with many is made. Things will begin building up but do not explode until the Church is raptured before the great tribulation. When the Antichrist confirms the covenant with many you will know that he is the Secretary General of the United Nations and will be given the Stephanos crown the sign of the UN."

In the last week ( 7yr Time period/7 yr trib) the AC descecrates the temple at the HALFWAY POINT.
HALFWAY THROUG THE TRIB, THE AC DESCECRATES THE TEMPLE.
AFTER that halfway point, is the wrath.

WE KNOW this because the wrath immediate follows the gathering of the Jews in Rev 14.

There are "reasons", why you say the white horse rider is not the AC.
False reasons.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where do you dream up these non-existent problems?
The great tribulation is on believers.
The wrath of God is on unbelievers.
Simple.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal.........marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
The wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.
Simple.


There are two raptures.

The first rapture will be the Church. It will be like days of Noah. When the great tribulation begins the Church will already be in heaven as the Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

The second rapture will be the Jews, the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth. It will be like the days of Lot. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. So will it be when the Jews are raptured at the 6th seal, destruction will come in the day of vengeance.

The woman, Israel, those that flee to a place of protection will remain on the earth during the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath. Scriptural fact, not what someone chooses to think.

Both brides will be in heaven at the marriage supper.


Please produce one single solitary verse that says that there is a 7 year tribulation. This should be no problem, if it is true.

I can show you where the tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God begins at the 7th seal. That settles the issue.

We have scriptural fact. But you don't want to believe what the scripture says. You want to believe what you THINK.


There is a week that will begin when a 7 year covenant with many is made. Is there a 7 year tribulation? No. Is Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood? No.

Things will not heat up until the Church is raptured. The Church has to be raptured before the great tribulation, not before the week begins.


What are you talking about. Of course the rider on the white horse is AN Antichrist. This is the 7th king, and the beast of the earth.

BUT The rider on the white horse does not kick off the final week. The week kicks off when a covenant with many is made. That does not mean the seals have been opened. The seals will not be opened until the Church is raptured. The Church WILL NOT be raptured before the 7 year period begins. Is Noah in the ark 7 days before the flood. No.


The false Christ carries a bow because he is Horus..........who is Tammuz. Look on the back of the dollar bill and you will see the eye of Horus. The world awaits their false Messiah.

Again. The final 7 years begins when a covenant with many is made. Things will begin building up but do not explode until the Church is raptured before the great tribulation. When the Antichrist confirms the covenant with many you will know that he is the Secretary General of the United Nations and will be given the Stephanos crown the sign of the UN.

Which proves absolutely nothing. Show me a scripture that shows there is a 7 year tribulation. Show me a scripture that says that the covenant with many is made and then immediately confirmed.

They are not there and will not be there because Noah is not in the ark 7 days before the flood.


Can a 7 year covenant be made in 2023 and confirmed in 2026?

There absolutely is no 7 year tribulation. There only remains 3.5 years in the 70th week of Daniel. That 3.5 years will begin when the AOD is set up in the midst of the week. The Church will already be in heaven before the great tribulation.

The 4 horsemen sent by heaven, the 2 witnesses, the 144,000 sealed, the flying scorpions, the innumerable number ( Those saints left behind), and the plagues by the 4 horsemen, as well as the billions slaughtered by the AC, all happen AFTER THE RAPTURE.
You have the trib STARTING at the halfway point, by thinking that a "non confired covenant", with no tribulation, decides the start of the 7 yr period.
( preterism)
News flash ....the white horse rider has a "BOW"...(A COVENANT)
God used a bow in Genesis as a specific representation of covenant.
"I have set my BOW in the sky...."
God also used "BOW" , as a component, in description of the AC.

According to you, God can not use the same component.

 

[The Light]

I can show you a study where tribuation is used by God for believers.
Here is one:
Rev 2:22
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Great. I can show you 100% proof that the great tribulation at the end of the age is OVER at the 6th seal, and the 7th seal is the wrath of God.

Additionally, do you see anything, ANYTHING AT ALL, that shows even the slightest chance that when Jesus comes with the armies of heaven, He is sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth? Do the following verses look like a harvest of the righteous?

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Quit thinking what you think and read the Word of God. Your confusion is that you have listened to too to many people that think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus on white horses with the armies of heaven. Is Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect or is Jesus coming in wrath for Armageddon.

Secondly, the coming of Jesus Matthew 24 clearly says that tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. This clearly happens at the 6th seal. Further, right after this harvest there is a great multitude in heaven some of whom have come out of great tribulation. None of the scriptures are agreeing with your claim. Why do you fight against what is clearly written in the Word of God? It makes no sense. Time to wake up and believe the written Word of God.

I would think of all the people on this forum that you would be one that would have some understanding. You are one of the few that understands there is a second rapture. When do you think that second rapture takes place? It takes place at the 6th seal as we can clearly see if we accept what is written and quit believing things that have been passed down by others who got their knowledge when the books were sealed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders​

hmmm, well I don't know about those guys but I have rapturous thoughts when pretty girls smile at me!

I have an ongoing experiment that I do at the grocery store. I smile at every single person that I passed by.
Most people smile back, but I can tell they are "taken back" by a stranger offering a smile. It is unexpected by them, and most of the time they smile back
Now sometimes I see people that have a lot of hurt on their face and they don't smile back because they can't
That part of them has become inoperable, and so I say a quick Prayer for them.
IT is my ongoing experiment.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Great. I can show you 100% proof that the great tribulation at the end of the age is OVER at the 6th seal, and the 7th seal is the wrath of God.

Additionally, do you see anything, ANYTHING AT ALL, that shows even the slightest chance that when Jesus comes with the armies of heaven, He is sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth? Do the following verses look like a harvest of the righteous?

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Quit thinking what you think and read the Word of God. Your confusion is that you have listened to too to many people that think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus on white horses with the armies of heaven. Is Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect or is Jesus coming in wrath for Armageddon.

Secondly, the coming of Jesus Matthew 24 clearly says that tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. This clearly happens at the 6th seal. Further, right after this harvest there is a great multitude in heaven some of whom have come out of great tribulation. None of the scriptures are agreeing with your claim. Why do you fight against what is clearly written in the Word of God? It makes no sense. Time to wake up and believe the written Word of God.

I would think of all the people on this forum that you would be one that would have some understanding. You are one of the few that understands there is a second rapture. When do you think that second rapture takes place? It takes place at the 6th seal as we can clearly see if we accept what is written and quit believing things that have been passed down by others who got their knowledge when the books were sealed.

QUOTE
"Secondly, the coming of Jesus Matthew 24 clearly says that tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. This clearly happens at the 6th seal. Further, right after this harvest there is a great multitude in heaven some of whom have come out of great tribulation. None of the scriptures are agreeing with your claim. Why do you fight against what is clearly written in the Word of God? It makes no sense. Time to wake up and believe the written Word of God."

Nope. Nope. Nope.
I am not USING YOUR PRISM.
That...is the difference.
Your model Fails at mat 24.
"AFTER THE TRIBULATION..."...YES INDEED!!!
AFTER THE 7 YR TRIB .
Your model is saying that Jesus RETURNS IN POWER AND GREAT GLORY during the trib without Rev 19's return in power and great glory on white horses.
The ONLY PLACE Jesus returns in power and great glory is REV 19, on white horses, which is AFTER THE 7 YR TRIB.
That alone is beyond problematic for your timeline.
You claim.
1) the white horse rider is not the AC
2) The AC holding a bow, (that God uses as representation of a covenant), Is actually not a covenant at all.
3) that Jesus returns twice in power and great glory, when that invented concept is unbiblical.
4) that Noah and Lot are used as 2 separate comings...which is absurd.
5) that some 7 day period prior to the flood, that I supposedly use, causes me some confusion.
( I have never thought that or believed it.)
It changes nothing and I don't need it to defend the biblical 7 yr trib period in daniel.


None of your scriptures agree with your claims.
Why do you fight against God's word???
Time to wake up.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Great. I can show you 100% proof that the great tribulation at the end of the age is OVER at the 6th seal, and the 7th seal is the wrath of God.

Additionally, do you see anything, ANYTHING AT ALL, that shows even the slightest chance that when Jesus comes with the armies of heaven, He is sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth? Do the following verses look like a harvest of the righteous?

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Quit thinking what you think and read the Word of God. Your confusion is that you have listened to too to many people that think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus on white horses with the armies of heaven. Is Jesus sending His angels to gather the elect or is Jesus coming in wrath for Armageddon.

Secondly, the coming of Jesus Matthew 24 clearly says that tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. This clearly happens at the 6th seal. Further, right after this harvest there is a great multitude in heaven some of whom have come out of great tribulation. None of the scriptures are agreeing with your claim. Why do you fight against what is clearly written in the Word of God? It makes no sense. Time to wake up and believe the written Word of God.

I would think of all the people on this forum that you would be one that would have some understanding. You are one of the few that understands there is a second rapture. When do you think that second rapture takes place? It takes place at the 6th seal as we can clearly see if we accept what is written and quit believing things that have been passed down by others who got their knowledge when the books were sealed.

QUOTE
"Great. I can show you 100% proof that the great tribulation at the end of the age is OVER at the 6th seal, and the 7th seal is the wrath of God"

Rev 6 ...the sixth seal.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"

Now, lets take a honest look, without your prism.
Jesus returns after the week of Daniel ( to frame it without the "7yr trib", which your prism casts down)
That is on white horses...just a fact.

Now I wonder if the rest of that passage fits the white horse return???
" ... And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; aid to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb...."
That is LOOKING FORWARD TO the second coming on white horses.

Hello...that is what is ACTUALLY HAPPENING in the 6th seal.
But because your PRISM can not process "tribulation" , you missed the second coming on white horses , and think there are 2 comings in power and great glory.
You missed it chronologically,
Rev 6 is LOOKING FORWARD TO THE SECOND COMING.
Your deal is literally impossible.

 

[PinSeeker]

...the covenant of grace, although prophesied in a way in Gen. 3...

Oh, so now you're admitting that there is such a thing, at least... <chuckles> As I said, though, it wasn't "prophesied," it was pronounced... God said, since this has happened, since Adam has done this, this is how things will be from now on, and this is what I will do. I mean it's fine with me to say it was prophesied then if you want to, but it was just as applicable all the way back to Abraham as it is to us; what might be helpful to you to see this is to read what Paul writes of Abraham in Romans 4:

"What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.' Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.' Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised."​

What Paul says about Abraham's righteousness being counted to him, along with the fact that this was made to be the case by God before he was circumcised, are two very, very important things to be seen here. It is solely by the grace of God. You see?

...didn't become a reality until the final sacrifice of Christ was offered.

Christ was "offered" then, in that way. As I say, Hebrews 11 is very clear that we are all ~ all, from that time forward, saved in the same way, by grace through faith. Abraham is the first mentioned there.

If grace abounded throughout the OT...

It did... and does still...

, then billions of animals died for nothing.

The animals, Trekson, the animal sacrifices that God commanded the Israelites to make, were all types and shadows of the Lamb of God, Jesus, and pointed forward to Him, made in faith that God would honor those sacrifices in light of the true Sacrifice still at that time to come. He is the true Lamb without blemish. The sacrifices the Israelites of old made were not themselves salvific ~ that is true only of Jesus's sacrifice on the cross ~ but again, the animal sacrifices they were required to make pointed forward to Jesus's death and resurrection and were made in faith that God would honor those sacrifices in light of the true Sacrifice still at that time to come... made in faith that God would provide the true sacrifice, just as Abraham said to Isaac in Genesis 22:8, "Abraham said, 'God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.' " As it concerned the Israelites it was by grace through faith form them just as much as it is for us now. We don't sacrifice animals now because Jesus was God's final sacrifice, which made obsolete the practice of animal sacrifice.

So no, billions of animals did not die for nothing, but... well, no need to repeat what I just said. Again, referring to Hebrews 7, "For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God." And now, we Christians are to offer our bodies as living sacrifices, as Paul says in Romans 12:1, pointing backward to Christ's true sacrifice (in view of it) and pointing forward to Christ's return... "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

We will be removed when the Lord comes for His bride, before the great tribulation.

Disagree. The time of tribulation is now, in this life, just as Jesus said. And again, you're conflating tribulation, which we have now, and God's wrath which is still yet to come and will only be... experienced... in the form of eternal punishment, the second death, by the unrepentant, those on Jesus's left in the final Judgment and thus judged unfavorably.

We will stand before the Son of man.

Right, after He returns, at the final Judgment, and then still after, in the new heaven and new earth, because we will have been judged favorably in that final Judgment.

Noah left the surface of the earth...

Well sure... <chuckles> ... but in a boat made by himself, at God's direction, of wood and pitch. He never left creation, only going to heaven after he died... <smile> Likewise, we will not leave God's creation either, not in this life or the next, as He will bring heaven to us after the final Judgment. As John states in his final vision, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.' And He Who was seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new.' " (Revelation 21:1-5)

Lot left Sodom.

Sure, but he was still on earth, very much in God's creation... <smile> Lot's wife looked back though (Genesis 19:26), and we know what happened to her...

Both episodes point to God's final Judgment, and who will be judged unfavorably and thus depart. And it will not be those on Jesus's right in the judgment; we will stand in the final Judgment (Psalm 1) and will not experience eternal punishment... the second death... God's wrath. We will then truly and fully, in spirit and in body, have eternal life, and we will enter into His promised rest. Here. <smile> And God ~ Jesus, in spirit and body ~ will be here with us. Forever... for all eternity.

Grace and peace to you.