Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[rebuilder 454]

I guess you quit reading. Maybe you missed this.

" I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."


I guess you missed this.

" I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."

Oh boy. Beliefs not in the Bible.

At first, you tell me that Jesus does not come in power and glory at 6th seal. I listen to this over and over. Now you have changed. Now you want to make the 6th seal a forward look to the 7th seal. If you are looking for ridiculous beliefs........there it is. You could not accept what is written and believe that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal..........just like it says, or you can go with what you THINK. I'll go with the Word of God.


I guess you missed this.


" I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."

Ok. Please explain using scripture when these people get to heaven? Of course, you are never able to answer. Always what you THINK.


Matthew 24 has no ties to Revelation 19. Matthew 24 is the gathering from heaven and earth immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. Whereas Revelation 19 is the coming of Jesus at Armageddon. There is not a harvest at this time. It is the time of vengeance. Why you are unable to see this is another puzzle.


I don't need to change a thing. It is you that have had to change and what you have changed to is completely unscriptural. It all comes down you are unable to accept what is written and understand that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. There is a harvest at the 6th seal as believers are not appointed to wrath. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Armageddon occurs at the 7th trumpet which occurs at end of the 7th seal. Simple. Just what it says.

QUOTE
"I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."

ABSOLUTELY FALSE FALS FALSE
acts 1...like manner. Zero power and great glory.
REV 14 :14...ZERO power and great glory
John 21:....Jesus cooking fish. Zero power and great glory
John 21...Jesus appears to and asks Tomas to put his hand in his side. Zero power and great glory
Matthew 25 Jesus gathers his bride. Zero power and great glory.

I got many many more, that affirm my position.
It is your thinking that is against the bible.
Scripture is what matters.

"Comes with His angels"
Mat 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Applying your theory , it is apparent you think Jesus 3 comings, are all the same, complete with his throne established on the earth, and judgement of the sheep and goats.

Nope, "power and great glory", is Rev 19's second coming to earth, on horses, as avenger, warrior, and judge.

That one item has you totally painted into a corner.

 

[Taken]

Actually, it almost has to be a 7 day loading.
1.2 species of land animals
11.7 million species of reptiles.
Then factor in the "one day" theory of loading and it says it rained on THAT DAY.
So it was not even 24 hours that they had to load millions of living creatures.
Actually not only impossible but ludicrous to suggest.

People Guess, how many animals were on Noah’s Ark…Guessing…thousands to millions.

My guess would be…(excluding birds)… tops at maybe 500 (KINDS) of properly “paired” animals.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[The Light]

QUOTE
"I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."

ABSOLUTELY FALSE FALS FALSE
acts 1...like manner. Zero power and great glory.
REV 14 :14...ZERO power and great glory
John 21:....Jesus cooking fish. Zero power and great glory
John 21...Jesus appears to and asks Tomas to put his hand in his side. Zero power and great glory
Matthew 25 Jesus gathers his bride. Zero power and great glory.

"I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."

I guess you missed the part when I said anytime Jesus shows up with His angels.

Do you see any angels when Jesus is cooking fish? With Thomas?

There are angels in Revelation 14, but then of course that takes place BEFORE the wrath of God at the 6th seal, so we know He comes in power and glory then.

I got many many more, that affirm my position.
It is your thinking that is against the bible.
Scripture is what matters.

"Comes with His angels"
Mat 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Applying your theory , it is apparent you think Jesus 3 comings, are all the same, complete with his throne established on the earth, and judgement of the sheep and goats.

Nope, "power and great glory", is Rev 19's second coming to earth, on horses, as avenger, warrior, and judge.

That one item has you totally painted into a corner.

You struck out. You still haven't figured out the Jesus comes for a harvest in Matthew 24 as it is the gathering from heaven and earth. There is no Armageddon in Matthew 24. You have to see that. But will you admit it? Slim to none.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

QUOTE
"I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."

ABSOLUTELY FALSE FALS FALSE
acts 1...like manner. Zero power and great glory.
REV 14 :14...ZERO power and great glory
John 21:....Jesus cooking fish. Zero power and great glory
John 21...Jesus appears to and asks Tomas to put his hand in his side. Zero power and great glory
Matthew 25 Jesus gathers his bride. Zero power and great glory.

I got many many more, that affirm my position.
It is your thinking that is against the bible.
Scripture is what matters.

"Comes with His angels"
Mat 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Applying your theory , it is apparent you think Jesus 3 comings, are all the same, complete with his throne established on the earth, and judgement of the sheep and goats.

Nope, "power and great glory", is Rev 19's second coming to earth, on horses, as avenger, warrior, and judge.

That one item has you totally painted into a corner.

Your way of interpreting scripture is utterly ridiculous. You think that just because a passage doesn't contain a certain detail (Jesus coming in power and great glory) relating to Christ's one and only future descension from heaven, that means it can't be talking about when Jesus comes in power and great glory. As if every passage about His second coming has to contain that detail in order to be about that event. Such nonsense.

 

[The Light]

QUOTE
"I have a question a few questions. When is the rapture of the Jews? Before the wrath of God or after the wrath of God.
When does the great multitude get to heaven? Before the wrath of God or after the wrath of God.
Do you have any scriptural proof of what you believe or is it what you THINK."


It doesn't matter what i think, even though you think your misrepresentations are valid.

In other words, the answers would prove your error so...............

I have pressed you over and over about your supposed 3 comings in power and great glory that you are most likely embarrassed about, and I am sure it is that embarrassment that has you accusing me of a lack of knowledge.

Here we go again. Where did I say Jesus was coming in power and glory 3 times? When the Lord shows up for the Church.......the Lord Himself comes............no angels.

We know he comes in power and glory at the 6th seal because of the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

You finally figured that part out, but instead of just accepting the facts, you had to claim that the 6th seal was a preview of the 7th seal. Of course then you have a problem with those pesky trumpets and vials of wrath.

You also try to make some case about the AC wearing a Stephanos crown.
( thinking you diminished successfully who he is.)
Then claim the bow in his hand is not a covenant.
It is akinn to " don't look behind tge curtain, watch my clever labeling"

Bow and arrow. Weapon.

Stephanos crown as in the symbol of United Nations. He will become Secretary General of the United Nations...........one world government.

QUOTE
"On this one, as usual, I'm going to go with the Word of God. You can go with what you THINK is possible."

What a joke.
You can not honestly debate me.
You really ought to join the postribber society.
Your methods fit so perfectly.

Yeah I post scriptures that shows that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal which you fought against despite the scriptural proof.

That sure isn't winning a debate.

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay I'm wrapping this up... <chuckles>

So, that means believers are not gifted with all of the spiritual gifts and that would include the spiritual gift of faith.

It means, Spiritual Israelite, that not all believers are specially gifted by the Holy Spirit in every one of the spiritual gifts. This is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 12. But at the same time, the inference can be made ~ because Paul says nothing to the contrary; and he would if this were not true, thus the argument from silence (which somehow you say I don't understand, which is inane) ~ that all believers have some measure short of giftedness of all these things because they have the Spirit, Who is in us all and possesses all these things, as He is God, else they are not a Christian. Others here like @Taken have no problem understanding me when I say that.

Since all believers have saving faith, but do not all have the spiritual gift of faith, that means the spiritual gift of faith is not saving faith. Very simple.

That's inane, Spiritual Israelite. That's just a stupid assertion. You're smarter than that, I know. Paul speaks of no other kind of faith. Now James does ~ a dead faith, a faith not producing or resulting in good works ~ but not Paul.

So, you say we are required to do something that we can't do ourselves at all.

No, I don't say that. That's just how you understand what I'm saying, which is nonsensical itself, and therefore can't be reconciled with you, but that's a you thing. As I said, faith is not a "requirement" at all, it is given by God ~ God's assurance, given to us, and conviction by the Holy Spirit, Who is the one Who convicts. Thank God it is not a prerequisite for being saved, because if that were the case none of us would be saved. As I said, we are required, SI, to exercise our faith ~ once we have it ~ to walk in it, to act on it. And we will, because we have it, because it has been given to us. But faith itself is not a work of man. And faith is not a requirement to be saved. To say this would effectively be to say that we justify ourselves, which is surely not the case... "it is God who justifies" (Romans 8:33).

Having said that, I will say this, though, that good works are essential to our ultimate salvation, the "not-yet salvation" that we will have at the day of Christ.

If God truly offers salvation to all people then that means all people are capable of accepting His offer.

And they are. But they will not. They cannot bring themselves to accept His offer; they will not, as they are wholly inclined against it, and freely and willingly choose to... well, exchange the truth for a lie, and worship creation rather than the Creator. And this is because they are dead in their sin.

...you continue to misrepresent what I believe.

I have never said, "You believe this" or "You believe that" except in repeating exactly what you said, so therefore I don't misrepresent what you believe. See just above for an example. I do, however, confront you with the implications of what you do believe. I say, well you said "A" (and I quote you here), and then I say the unavoidable implication of what you did say, "A," is "B." And I know you don't believe "B," that you would say "B" is false, but that makes... renders... "A" also false. It's really turning your own words against you, and you don't like that, which I understand, but it is what it is.

No, he did not teach that there's nothing we have to do to be saved.

He did. Unless you're talking about our ultimate salvation ~ in the "not yet" sense, which I have talked about ~ which will be at the day of Christ, where we will all be judged according to what we have done. But in the "now" sense, that we have been saved, born again of the Spirit, there is nothing we did to deserve salvation, else, again, God's grace would not be grace ~ unmerited favor ~ at all.

You either can't or won't acknowledge that faith is not of the type of works that Paul said don't result in salvation.

Faith is not a work at all. Period. We cannot have God's assurance unless God gives us that assurance. There is no way around this.

He contrasted faith with works and you can't or won't acknowledge that.

I've acknowledged this a thousand times over.

Salvation IS through faith, but is NOT by works. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

I've acknowledged this a thousand times over. That's really never been the discussion or the matter at hand. The issue has always been that many at least inadvertently make faith out to be a work of man. By saying some of the very same things you have said in this thread, like, "faith is a responsibility" and "faith is required so that we can then be born again," or anything to that effect.

You turn faith, if it comes from ourselves, into a meritorious work, but scripture NEVER does.

I agree that Scripture never does, but you do, by saying, again, things like, "faith is a responsibility" and "faith is required so that we can then be born again."

Here is another thing that Calvinism just makes up that is never taught in scripture. This supposed meaningless "general call" to salvation. I can't take nonsense like that seriously at all.

Consider again Joel 2:32... "it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." The call to repent and believe is general, sent out to all people. But the call of the Lord, the justifying call of the Lord, is specific and in that way given only to His elect. As Paul says in Romans 8:29-30 (yet again), "those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." Those, those, those, those... it is quite obviously a limited group.

First, you say that belief is a work that we do and then you say it's a work that God does. LOL!

I never, ever... nor would I... say the latter. Never. That's the (terribly) false accusation. It's actually a lie, really, unless you really do think I ever said that our belief is a work that God does. Which I did not. Nor did John Calvin... <smile> Again, I would never, ever say such a thing.

Do you not believe that you become saved when you become a child of God? I do. And this makes it clear that faith comes first before becoming a child of God. Before being saved.

I was with you word for word until you said "before being saved." <smile> Child of God... think about it, SI. If faith is God's assurance ~ which is undeniably is ~ and through it we are saved, by God's grace, which is what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8, then how in the world is it even possible to have it before we are saved, before we are born again of the Spirit ~ again, as if it were a prerequisite to or requirement for our being saved? We cannot. In this new birth by His Spirit, God gives us this faith... again, by definition, Hebrews 11:1, His assurance of things hoped for, and conviction by the Holy Spirit of things unseen.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Lol.
Horus?
You named the " AC" , Horus?
Out of thin air?

It appears you have very little understanding of the Babylonian religion that has spread across the world.

As for Horus, do a comparison on the internet between Horus and Jesus. Then you might get the idea what is going on as Horus came before Jesus. Horus is Tammuz. Apollo etc. etc. The eye of Horus is on the back of the 1-dollar bill........but you don't know why.

Ezekiel 8
14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the Lord's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

The 4 horsemen do not start the 7 yr GT?

There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a final week which begins when a covenant with many is made. The great tribulation begins in the middle of the week. There are only 3.5 year remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.....time, times and half a time........exactly like the word of God says.

...and on and on.
You are not accountable to any of the body of Christ, so you are practically guaranteed error.
I asked you for a link to your PRIVATE UNIQUE "interpretations" and you have none, and have no red flags, that God has given ONLY you the "truth".
YOU are the only person on the planet with the truth?

I asked you to provide a link to who you about 2 raptures. Or did you learn it out of the word of God? But most others don't see. Why is that?

The AC ( that you claim is not the main AC)

He is the beast of the earth the 7th king. There will be another Antichrist that will be the 8th king and is of the seven.

holding a bow, is not the AC holding a covenant. I guess God was having a bad day when he used a bow to represent COVENANT.

Or maybe the rider on the white horse is holding an actual bow. This identifies who he is and he carries a bow and not a rainbow.

The 4 horsemen do not start the 7 yr GT?

There is no 7 year great tribulation. The great tribulation starts in the middle of the week.

You are not accountable to any of the body of Christ, so you are practically guaranteed error.
I asked you for a link to your PRIVATE UNIQUE "interpretations" and you have none, and have no red flags, that God has given ONLY you the "truth".
YOU are the only person on the planet with the truth?
No sir.
Your THINKING is off.
Way off.

And yet you cannot use scripture to disprove anything that I say. And you are too afraid to answer any of my questions such as where does the second rapture which is the Jews, happen in Revelation? And what seal does it occur in?

 

[The Light]

Actually, it almost has to be a 7 day loading.
1.2 species of land animals
11.7 million species of reptiles.
Then factor in the "one day" theory of loading and it says it rained on THAT DAY.
So it was not even 24 hours that they had to load millions of living creatures.
Actually not only impossible but ludicrous to suggest.

Even though the Word of God says on the selfsame day Noah, his family and all the animals were loaded.

You think it's impossible, in spite of what the Word of God says?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It means, Spiritual Israelite, that not all believers are specially gifted by the Holy Spirit in every one of the spiritual gifts.

No, it means, PinSeeker, that not all believers are given every one of the spiritual gifts. That means there are some spiritual gifts that each believer does not have at all. Otherwise, Paul would not say to desire the best gifts (1 Corinthians 12:31). He wouldn't say that if we already have them all in some measure, as you claim. He would instead say to desire to have the best gifts in greater measure. But, that's not what he said. Can you be honest enough to acknowledge this? I highly doubt it.

This is what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 12. But at the same time, the inference can be made ~ because Paul says nothing to the contrary; and he would if this were not true ~ that all believers have some small measure, short of giftedness, of all these things because they have the Spirit, else they are not a Christian.

Paul never said that I can't snap my fingers and immediately be teleported to another galaxy, so, apparently, that means I have the ability to do that. At least to some small measure. Come on. He does say things to the contrary when he indicates that we should desire the better gifts (1 Corinthians 12:31). Why should we desire the better gifts if we already have them at least in some small measure? Instead, we should desire to have the better gifts that you say we already have in greater measure. But, that's not what Paul said.

Others here like @Taken have no problem understanding me when I say that.

LOL. He clearly does not understand what you're talking about. He thinks there are 7 Spirits of God, and you think he can understand what you are saying? I don't think he understands what anyone is saying, including me. You misunderstood him just like you misunderstand scripture. He was talking about natural talents/abilities that all people are born with and he calls those spiritual gifts. Even unbelievers have natural talents/abilities. That's clearly different than the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit that only believers are given.

That's inane, Spiritual Israelite. That's just a stupid assertion. You're smarter than that, I know.

No, it isn't. It's utterly stupid for you to claim that any believer has all of the spiritual gifts, including faith, despite Paul clearly indicating otherwise. He asked "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?". Your answer to all of those questions is "Yes, at least to some measure". Talk about a stupid assertion. That's as stupid as it gets. The answer to all those questions is clearly "No" and that's why he then said right after that to desire the better gifts. He said that because no one has all the better gifts. But, you say we all do. That's a very stupid assertion that blatantly contradicts what Paul indicated.

Are you somehow not aware that you are in a very small minority in how you interpret 1 Corinthians 12:9 and that a vast majority of Christians agree with me on this? Just look up any commentaries on the verse and you will see that. So, I guess you think that a vast majority of Christians interpret 1 Corinthians 12:9 in a stupid way.

I can't decide what is more stupid. Your assertion that 1 Corinthians 12:9 is referring to saving faith or your assertion that believing in Christ is the work of God in the sense that it is what God does rather than what God requires us to do (John 6:27-29).

No, I don't say that. That's just how you understand what I'm saying, which is nonsensical itself, and therefore can't be reconciled with you, but that's a you thing. As I said, faith is not a "requirement" at all

What a stupid assertion, considering that when the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he had to do to be saved, they didn't say "Nothing" as you believe, but rather said that he was required to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. And when Jesus was asked by people the same question about what they had to do that God requires in order to obtain eternal life, He didn't say "Nothing" as you would, He said that they needed to believe in the one God sent (Him, obviously).

, it is given by God ~ God's assurance, given to us, and conviction by the Holy Spirit, Who is the one Who convicts. Thank God it is not a prerequisite for being saved, because if that were the case none of us would be saved.

Nonsense. I'm sure even you can understand that people make decisions about all kinds of things including moral things without God making those decisions for them, yet, you somehow stupidly think that they can't decide whether to accept or reject God's offer of salvation through the dead and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ.

As I said, we are required, SI, to exercise our faith ~ once we have it ~ to walk in it, to act on it. And we will, because we have it, because it has been given to us.

You have said before that you believe in free will. What kind of free will is it when there is no choice for us to make and that we are guaranteed to exercise faith that is given to us while unbelievers are guaranteed to not exercise faith because it's not given to them. That's not free will. That scenario is a case of God exercising His free will upon those who have no free will. You can't say that people have free will and at the same time say that they have no choice in the matter.

But faith itself is not a work of man. And faith is not a requirement to be saved.

LOL. Unbelievable. What a stupid assertion. You blatantly contradict Paul and Silas and Jesus by saying that. They were asked what people are required to do to be saved and they did not say there is nothing that people are required to do. They said people are required to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

To say this would effectively be to say that we justify ourselves, which is surely not the case; it is God who justifies (Romans 8:33).

This is another one of your many stupid assertions. If someone is drowning in the ocean and then someone comes and offers to help keep them from drowning and to bring them to shore, and the person accepts their offer and grabs onto them or on to a life preserver offered to them, does that mean the person saved themselves?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Having said that, I will say this, though, that good works are essential to our ultimate salvation, the "not-yet salvation" that we will have at the day of Christ.

What does that mean? Why do you so often say things without any explanation for what you mean?

And they are. But they will not. They cannot bring themselves to accept His offer; they will not, as they are wholly inclined against it, and freely and willingly choose to... well, exchange the truth for a lie, and worship creation rather than the Creator. And this is because they are dead in their sin.

Goodness gracious, this is an incredibly stupid assertion. You contradict yourself constantly. You say all people are capable of accepting God's offer of salvation and then proceed to indicate that you believe they are not capable of doing so. Goodness sakes. Who do you think you're fooling with all your contradictions? Are you trying to appease both sidesof the argument by saying both are true or what? I don't get what you're trying to do here. Why can't you just be honest and acknowledge that you believe that some people are not capable of accepting God's offer of salvation. Or, to be even more honest about your beliefs, you should acknowledge that you believe that He doesn't offer salvation to all people.

I have never said, "You believe this" or "You believe that" except in repeating exactly what you said, so therefore I don't misrepresent what you believe.

LOL. Your dishonesty never ends. Why are you so dishonest? That is a serious question. It's a serious issue that you need to address. You do NOT only repeat exactly what I said. That is just plain false. You give your understanding of what I say many times. That's why you say things that misrepresent what I believe. I know what I believe, so if you quote my exact words in relation to something I believe then it can't possibly misrepresent what I believe.

I do, however, confront you with the implications of what you do believe.

LOL. And, once again you have contradicted yourself. You first say that you only repeat exactly what I said and then you follow that up by admitting that you confront with me what you THINK are the implications of what I believe. Yet, those implications are false and do not reflect what I believe, so you clearly misrepresent what I believe with your imagined implications of what I believe.

And you don't like that, which I understand, but it is what it is.

What it is is that I don't like being misrepresented and neither do you. No one does. I'm not saying you were doing it on purpose, but to deny that you ever do it? Ridiculous. As if you're not capable of accidentally misunderstanding what I'm saying? Of course you are. We all misunderstand what others are saying on here at times for various reasons.

He did.

No, he did not. Is the following passage in your Bible or not?

Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Clearly, Paul taught that there is something that we need to do in order to be saved. It couldn't be more clear, but you still deny it. Unbelievable.

Unless you're talking about our ultimate salvation ~ in the "not yet" sense, which I have talked about ~ which will be at the day of Christ, where we will all be judged according to what we have done.

You are saying that we are not responsible to do anything to be saved spiritually when we first become saved, but you are saying that there's something we have to do in order to be saved on the day of Christ when He returns to judge all people? How does this make sense. What exactly do you think we have to do in order to be ultimately saved and why don't we also have to do that in order to be saved right now?

But in the "now" sense, that we have been saved, born again of the Spirit, there is nothing we did to deserve salvation, else, again, God's grace would not be grace ~ unmerited favor ~ at all.

But, we can do something to deserve ultimate salvation? I doubt that's what you're intending to say, but that is how you're coming across. You are not very good at being clear about what you're saying sometimes.

Faith is not a work at all. Period. We cannot have God's assurance unless God gives us that assurance. There is no way around this.

Again, you blatantly contradict Acts 16:30-31 and John 6:27-29. No matter how many times I tell you that, you just don't get it. Faith is a work in the sense that it's something we are required to do. Those passages make that very clear. But, it's not the type of work of which does not result in salvation, like what Paul writes about in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

I've acknowledged this a thousand times over.

The why do you claim that if the faith that saves is our faith then it would be a work and wouldn't save us because we're not saved by works? How is that a case of contrasting faith with works?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've acknowledged this a thousand times over. That's really never been the discussion or the matter at hand. The issue has always been that many at least inadvertently make faith out to be a work of man.

Jesus Himself indicated that faith is a work of man! Hello?

(CEV) John 6:27 Don't work for food that spoils. Work for food that gives eternal life. The Son of Man will give you this food, because God the Father has given him the right to do so.” 28 “What exactly does God want us to do?” the people asked. 29 Jesus answered, “God wants you to have faith in the one he sent.”

Jesus very specifically said that people have to "work for good that gives eternal life" and then after being asked what He meant by that by being asked what exactly God wants people to do in order to work for food that gives eternal life He said God wants people to have faith in the One He sent, which obviously was Him. Jesus very clearly indicated that it was the responsibility of man to believe in Him. That it is something that man is required by God to do. Paul and Silas also indicated that it's something that man is responsible to do (Acts 16:30-31). You blatantly contradict scripture with your stupid assertions like saying that faith is not a work of man. Faith is a work of man in response to God's command to repent that He gives to all people everywhere (Acts 17:30) and His call to accept His offer of salvation that He makes to all people (Titus 2:11).

Consider again Joel 2:32... "it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." The call to repent and believe is general, sent out to all people.

You make the call/offer of salvation that goes out to all people completely meaningless and pointless. Why can't you understand that? And you make God's offer of salvation to all people disingenuous for those who you believe are not capable of accepting it due to supposedly being totally depraved.

I never, ever... nor would I... say the latter. Never. That's the (terribly) false accusation. It's actually a lie, really, unless you really do think I ever said that our belief is a work that God does.

Dude, get serious for once. Why in the world would I lie about this? Tell me! I have no reason to lie. I say that because of what you said about John 6:29. You came across as if you believe when Jesus says "this is the work of God: to believe in the one He sent" (in some translations) that you take that to mean that believing in Christ is God's work (God's doing). No? You believe that saving faith is given to people by God, so it would line up with your beliefs for you to interpret the verse that way. So, how exactly do you interpret the verse then? Keeping in mind that the context of John 6:29 is established in verse 27.

Which I did not. Nor did John Calvin... <smile> Again, I would never, ever say such a thing.

You certainly seemed to imply it, so it would be great if you would clarify exactly how you interpret John 6:29.

I was with you word for word until you said "before being saved." <smile>

How does that make sense when I simply reiterated what I had already said about faith coming before becoming a child of God. How can you think that being saved and becoming a child of God are not the same thing?

Child of God... think about it, SI.

<sigh> Yeah, I've never thought about it before right? You can accuse me of many things and I'm sure you do privately and you even sometimes do publicly, but what you can't accuse me of is not having thought about all of these things that we're talking about. I have thought a lot about them.

If faith is God's assurance ~ which is undeniably is

LOL! Undeniably, eh? That's a word that another poster likes to frequently use in relation to his deniable opinions. Too funny.

Can you be any more vague than referring to faith as God's assurance? What does that even mean? Do you not think that faith involves personal trust in God/Christ?

Ephesians 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

What do you think it means to trust in Christ? Do you not think that relates to faith?

~ and through it we are saved, by God's grace, which is what Paul says in Ephesians 2:8, then how in the world is it even possible to have it before we are saved, before we are born again of the Spirit ~ again, as if it were a prerequisite to or requirement for our being saved?

<sigh> Salvation requires both God's grace and our faith in order to occur. The jailer asked Paul and Silas what he had to do in order to be saved and they said he had to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So, he had to first believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then he would be saved. And, of course, God's grace precedes salvation as well. Without God's grace it wouldn't be possible for us to put our faith in Christ, but He offers salvation to all people by way of placing their faith in Christ and you must first place your faith in Christ in order to then be saved. This is actually very simple, but Calvinism makes everything very convoluted.

 

[ewq1938]

If you understood what you are reading you would see that both the trumpets and vials are in the 7th seal.

If you understood what you are reading you would see that both the trumpets and vials are NOT in the 7th seal.

Revelation is written like Genesis 7. Genesis 7 gives you three different views of Noah loading the animals and three different views of the flood. Noah only loads the animals one time and there is only one flood but you get three different views with additional information in each view.

When you are reading Revelation there are two different views of the first 6 seals and two different views of the 7th seal wrath of God. Each view has different information. So, yes, the trumpets and vials are in the 7th seal.

They aren't. The seals are previews of what occurs in each of the trumps, the trumps are those events in action, and the vials are poured once the 7th trump sounds.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I guess you quit reading. Maybe you missed this.

" I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."


I guess you missed this.

" I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."

Oh boy. Beliefs not in the Bible.

At first, you tell me that Jesus does not come in power and glory at 6th seal. I listen to this over and over. Now you have changed. Now you want to make the 6th seal a forward look to the 7th seal. If you are looking for ridiculous beliefs........there it is. You could not accept what is written and believe that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal..........just like it says, or you can go with what you THINK. I'll go with the Word of God.


I guess you missed this.


" I am willing to believe anytime Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory."

Ok. Please explain using scripture when these people get to heaven? Of course, you are never able to answer. Always what you THINK.


Matthew 24 has no ties to Revelation 19. Matthew 24 is the gathering from heaven and earth immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. Whereas Revelation 19 is the coming of Jesus at Armageddon. There is not a harvest at this time. It is the time of vengeance. Why you are unable to see this is another puzzle.


I don't need to change a thing. It is you that have had to change and what you have changed to is completely unscriptural. It all comes down you are unable to accept what is written and understand that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Jesus returns at the 6th seal. There is a harvest at the 6th seal as believers are not appointed to wrath. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Armageddon occurs at the 7th trumpet which occurs at end of the 7th seal. Simple. Just what it says.

Quote
"Matthew 24 has no ties to Revelation 19. Matthew 24 is the gathering from heaven and earth immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. Whereas Revelation 19 is the coming of Jesus at Armageddon. There is not a harvest at this time. It is the time of vengeance. Why you are unable to see this is another puzzle."

This is the continuing corner you keep painting yourself into.

The BIBLE SAYS, " Tribulation such as the world has never seen, or ever will see again."

You= " that is not the wrath"

Matt 24, has Jesus coming in power and great glory, which is identical to the second coming of rev 19.
You= even when he comes without any power and great glory, I need it to be otherwise, so I just declare in opposition to the bible, that every APPEARANCE is in power and great glory, in opposition to Rev 19's vivid depiction, so the bible is wrong, what I think and my strict word definitions matter over what really is.


So the bible needs to not make sense to protect your strict definitions of "trib" , "wrath", stars, etc.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Even though the Word of God says on the selfsame day Noah, his family and all the animals were loaded.

You think it's impossible, in spite of what the Word of God says?

In just the mammal species, there is over 6,000.
Just the mammals.
(Still need the birds and reptiles)

The selfsame day THEY ENTERING, could be "the last of the loading."

Again, I don't need some strict private, "word definitions interpretation", by you, to unpack the word of God.

Besides that, it RAINED THAT DAY. So there is not a full day to do your impossible LOADING interpretation.

That means you could possibly be telling me that in 3 hours the thousands of animals, reptiles, and birds were loaded.
The deluge STARTED THE SELFSAME DAY.
You are telling me that for 7 days, no animals could enter the ark except after 6 of the last 7 days.
Noah telling Ham , " no no no don't let any animals in"... "make them all, wait outside until the day it starts raining".

So your deal is truly impossible.
When I debate error, it is the impossible that I showcase.

example;
Postribber Rapture impossibilities. I reveal tons of them, but like you, they CENTER ON WORD MISREPRESTSTIONS.
EXACTLY AS YOU DO.
They CENTER on: seals, first trump, last trump, seventh trump, AFTER THE TRIB, (Sound familliar?),
...all while , like you, OMITTING VERSES AND CONTEXT.
Every single postribber rapture talking point is shot down by God's word.
Every single one of them.
Bible rules

 

[rebuilder 454]

People Guess, how many animals were on Noah’s Ark…Guessing…thousands to millions.

My guess would be…(excluding birds)… tops at maybe 500 (KINDS) of properly “paired” animals.

Glory to God,

From google:
Based on current scientific understanding of evolutionary biology, genetics, and the fossil record, the chances of millions of species evolving from 1,000 common "kinds" in only 4,000 years is considered extremely low to biologically impossible. [1, 2]

I doubled the assertion number you used from 500 to 1000.
Even 1000 common kinds evolving to our current species is impossible.
So if you are taking a position of "kinds" vs "species", you would have an extreme number of animals.
More than what is estimated.

You got a real problem there.
Because the BIBLE SAYS , all died. Every breathing thing died.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, it means...

Yes, we disagree. Which we knew long before now. Plenty more to refute in your post, but no need to do so yet again. Maybe just a couple of clarifications...

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Firstly:

...not all believers are given every one of the spiritual gifts.

In the sense that none of us are specially gifted by the Spirit in every one of them, yes, which is absolutely consistent with Paul's context in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 12, as I have said.

Yet again, any disagreement we have on this particular thing is not a thing to get all worked up over. It's really a very minor disagreement and not worth quibbling over... certainly not a hill to die on... and there should be no problem dropping it. But alas... <chuckles>

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Secondly:

...we can do something to deserve ultimate salvation?

We will all be judged according to what we have done at the end of the age, yes. Jesus shows this graphically in Matthew 25:31-46.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Thirdly:

Jesus Himself indicated that faith is a work of man!

He absolutely, unequivocally did not. John 6:27-29... oh my. In verse 27, Jesus is contrasting between "working for food that leads to death" and "working for food that leads to eternal life." He's not talking about faith at all; He's talking really about HIMSELF:

They had eaten of the loaves (verse 26), which Jesus had produced for them when he multiplied the five loaves (and two fish) to feed the thousands of people there. What the multiplied loaves (and fish) represent in the sign/miracle he gave them was that He, He Himself, is the food that leads to eternal life, which is what He says just a couple of verses later, that "I am..." ~ so He Himself is ~ "...the bread of life; whoever comes to Me..." (Him) "...shall not hunger, and whoever believes in Me..." (Him) "...shall never thirst... My Father gives you the true bread from heaven... the bread of God is He Who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

And yet again, our good works, which lead to eternal life, are a result of the faith we've been given... they are good because we have been saved through faith, which, yet again, God's assurance and conviction by the Spirit of things hoped for and unseen, which by definition we cannot possibly have without Him having given it.

<sigh>

_______________________________________________________________________________________

One more thing. So yeah, fourthly:

LOL! Undeniably, eh? That's a word that another poster likes to frequently use in relation to his deniable opinions. Too funny. Can you be any more vague than referring to faith as God's assurance? What does that even mean?

That's exactly what Scripture ~ so God, and thus the writer of Hebrews (11:1), SI, not just me ~ says: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Wow. "What does that even mean..." Uh... Well... Yeah I'm just gon' let that go... <smile> ... and say it is what it is, and leave that one to our Helper, the Holy Spirit...

Now maybe... just maybe... you're understanding is that the writer of Hebrews is talking about us, personally, giving ourselves this assurance of things hoped for and conviction of things not seen. But that would be very, very, very wrong. <smile> Any assurance that we give ourselves of something merely hoped for and unseen, that we can't possibly even know because we can't see it,,, is no assurance at all, but only wishful thinking at best.

Do you not think that faith involves personal trust in God/Christ?

That's the inevitable result, yes.

_______________________________________________________________________________________


The rest of your posts are just repeating the same old wrongheaded notions, which I've spoken to many, many times... and, contrary to what you have said several times, have supported my assertions with passages throughout the Bible ~ like the one immediately above ~ over and over again, specifically (that I can remember off the top of my head) passages from Genesis, the Psalms, Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Galatians, 1 Peter, James, Hebrews, John's epistles, Jude, and John's Revelation.

Hello?

Yeah, good-bye. Go well.

Grace and peace to you SI.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Now that is profound, that all breathing animals died, because in nature there is the separation of the species.
So in the cat family, a lion and a jaguar can not procreate. A horse and a donkey produce a sterile mule.
A red bird can not successfully mate with a sparrow.
That is the protection of the species.
Even the marsupials are so unique and would have had to survive.

It could not be "( hey we got a lion, that will do for the cat family")..nope we would need EVERY SINGLE CAT SPECIES.
That is where we would need thousands and thousands of mammals ( alone) to survive the flood.
It is beyond the imagination .
*****now with a few more facts.****
Africa alone has over 1000 SPECIES OF mammals
South America with over 1000
Australia alone has almost 800.

Throw in north America, Asia, Russia, Europe.
(Remember we are talking MAMMALS ONLY.)

Load all that in 12 or so hours.
Maybe leave the birds and reptiles to catch up later.

NOW WHY 7 DAYS?
7 is the number of completion.

Ark completed after almos 100 years, then the 7 days of animal, bird, reptile loading, then the rain started.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Even though the Word of God says on the selfsame day Noah, his family and all the animals were loaded.

You think it's impossible, in spite of what the Word of God says?

Most likely the last of the animals and the 8 humans went in on the selfsame day.
Your model of, "they could not load anything except in the last day of the 7 days", is a very strange fantasy, that you need,to support a failed doctrine.
I am sure you struggle over the bible saying "7" days....therefore it is forbidden, correct?..(hence the struggle over a 7 day loading).
( all "7's" are against what you believe?)
Because, to dig in with " it was forbidden to load any living creature, except the day of the flood", ( which could have been 3 hours, or 10 minutes, a super "tiny timeframe", to load thousands of creatures)Is beyond ludicrous.
Remember the flood started the selfsame day.....and would have ruined the loading, since it was a few minutes or hours to accomplish the massive undertaking that must have taken days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, we disagree. Which we knew long before now. Plenty more to refute in your post

LOL! You can't refute anything I've posted, as you've proven repeatedly. Your arguments are almost all unbelievably weak.

but no need to do so yet again.

Can't do so again when you never have done so the first time.

Firstly:

In the sense that none of us are specially gifted by the Spirit in every one of them, yes, which is absolutely consistent with Paul's context in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 12, as I have said.

Yet again, any disagreement we have on this particular thing is not a thing to get all worked up over.

It becomes something to get all worked up over because you use 1 Corinthians 12:9 as one of your main verses to support your false belief that saving faith is given to people.

It's really a very minor disagreement and not worth quibbling over... certainly not a hill to die on... and there should be no problem dropping it. But alas... <chuckles>

It wouldn't be worth quibbling over if only you didn't use that verse to support your false doctrine that saving faith is given to people. By showing that you're wrong about that verse might make you reconsider how you interpret any other verses which you think teach that.

Secondly:

We will all be judged according to what we have done at the end of the age, yes. Jesus shows this graphically in Matthew 25:31-46.

Yes, and what do you think that means exactly?

Thirdly:

He absolutely, unequivocally did not. John 6:27-29... oh my. In verse 27, Jesus is contrasting between "working for food that leads to death" and "working for food that leads to eternal life." He's not talking about faith at all; He's talking really about HIMSELF:

LOL. You can't be serious. Your doctrinal bias is extreme. It's truly unbelievable how willing you are to blatantly twist scripture. So, you think He's telling them that He should not work for food that leads to death, but rather that He should work for food that leads to eternal life? How does that even make any sense for Him to say that about Himself? It doesn't. Why is it that He was telling them to do that then? He did not say He was talking about Himself at all. Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say!

After He told them that in verse 27 they then asked Him what work God required of them. Since Jesus mentioned working for food unto eternal life then they obviously were asking Him what work God required of them in order to obtain eternal life. So, they were asking Him what they had to do to obtain eternal life similar to how the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he had to do to be saved (Acts 16:30-31). And Jesus's answer was similar to what Paul and Silas said. He said they had to believe on the One who He (God the Father) sent, which obviously was Himself. So, scripture is extremely clear that we are required to do something in order to be saved and have eternal life and that is to put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

They had eaten of the loaves (verse 26), which Jesus had produced for them when he multiplied the five loaves (and two fish) to feed the thousands of people there. What the multiplied loaves (and fish) represent in the sign/miracle he gave them was that He, He Himself, is the food that leads to eternal life, which is what He says just a couple of verses later, that "I am..." ~ so He Himself is ~ "...the bread of life; whoever comes to Me..." (Him) "...shall not hunger, and whoever believes in Me..." (Him) "...shall never thirst... My Father gives you the true bread from heaven... the bread of God is He Who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

My goodness. You just go out of your way to deny what scripture clearly teaches. In no way shape or form was Jesus telling them that He should not work for for food that leads to death, but rather that he should work for food that leads to eternal life. That's total nonsense. If that was the case, then what do you think they were asking Him after He told them that? Why did they ask "“What must WE do to do the works God requires?”. Why didn't they ask Him what He must do instead if He was talking about Himself?

One more thing. So yeah, fourthly:

How exciting. One more thing that you say that will make me nauseous. How nice.

That's exactly what Scripture ~ so God, and thus the writer of Hebrews (11:1), SI, not just me ~ says: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Wow.

Wow yourself. Other translations don't word it that way and that wording is not exactly clear as to what that means. Hello? Wake up. Do you not think that faith in Christ involves trusting in Him as our Lord and Savior? Assurance relates to confidence. Why can't we have confidence ourselves rather than God having to give it to us? God doesn't force Himself upon anyone. I'm not convinced by your extremely weak argument that you make regarding Hebrews 11:1. If God gives people faith and it doesn't come from us at all, then why does it talk about Abraham's faith being credited to him as righteousness? Why would he be commended for his faith if it wasn't really his own faith and was something God gave to him? That makes no sense. Wow. Do you even think of these things? Wow. Why did Jesus marvel at the faith of the centurion if his faith was given to him? Wow. Do you have any answer for that? Of course you don't. Wow.

"What does that even mean..." Uh... Well... Yeah I'm just gon' let that go... <smile> ..

You clearly don't know what Hebrews 11:1 means.

. and say it is what it is, and leave that one to our Helper, the Holy Spirit...

May He help you take your blinders off and come out of the false doctrinal system of Calvinism.

Now maybe... just maybe... you're understanding is that the writer of Hebrews is talking about us, personally, giving ourselves this assurance of things hoped for and conviction of things not seen.

LOL. You have to be extremely delusional if you think your outrageously weak arguments could ever convince me to agree with you.

But that would be very, very, very wrong. <smile> Any assurance that we give ourselves of something merely hoped for and unseen, that we can't possibly even know because we can't see it,,, is no assurance at all, but only wishful thinking at best.

So ridiculous. We can't see God and, yet, Paul wrote that no one has any excuse for not glorifying Him and being thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21). That alone blows your nonsense out of the water. God expects all people to have faith in Him despite not being able to see Him. You say that it is not possible for some people to have faith because they can only have it if God gives it to them. But, clearly, it is possible for people to have faith without God giving it to them since He expects all people to have faith in Him. If people could only have faith if God gave it to them then all people would have faith since there is no excuse for anyone to not have faith in God. But, since some obviously do not have faith in God then it can't be the case that it's only because God didn't give them faith. That would give them an excuse for not having faith in God. But, they have no excuse. Romans 1 alone destroys Calvinism, but you can't bring yourself to admit that. You'd rather give people an excuse for not worshiping God and being thankful to Him (they can't without God giving them faith, you say) then acknowledge that all people are capable of deciding for themselves whether to have faith or not.

It's so ridiculous the way you think. I'm sure you acknowledge that people can make their own decisions about many, many different things, including moral things. Yet, somehow, you don't think they are capable of deciding to choose who they want to serve, despite Joshua making it clear that people are capable of making that choice themselves (Joshua 24:14-15). You think people can't choose for themselves whether to serve Christ or not. I'm sure Joshua would beg to differ with you about that. And so do I and so do many, many other Christians who understand that Calvinism is a false doctrinal system which contradicts God's character and His plan of salvation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus Himself indicated that faith is a work of man! Hello?

(CEV) John 6:27 Don't work for food that spoils. Work for food that gives eternal life. The Son of Man will give you this food, because God the Father has given him the right to do so.” 28 “What exactly does God want us to do?” the people asked. 29 Jesus answered, “God wants you to have faith in the one he sent.”

Jesus very specifically said that people have to "work for good that gives eternal life" and then after being asked what He meant by that by being asked what exactly God wants people to do in order to work for food that gives eternal life He said God wants people to have faith in the One He sent, which obviously was Him. Jesus very clearly indicated that it was the responsibility of man to believe in Him. That it is something that man is required by God to do. Paul and Silas also indicated that it's something that man is responsible to do (Acts 16:30-31). You blatantly contradict scripture with your stupid assertions like saying that faith is not a work of man. Faith is a work of man in response to God's command to repent that He gives to all people everywhere (Acts 17:30) and His call to accept His offer of salvation that He makes to all people (Titus 2:11).


You make the call/offer of salvation that goes out to all people completely meaningless and pointless. Why can't you understand that? And you make God's offer of salvation to all people disingenuous for those who you believe are not capable of accepting it due to supposedly being totally depraved.


Dude, get serious for once. Why in the world would I lie about this? Tell me! I have no reason to lie. I say that because of what you said about John 6:29. You came across as if you believe when Jesus says "this is the work of God: to believe in the one He sent" (in some translations) that you take that to mean that believing in Christ is God's work (God's doing). No? You believe that saving faith is given to people by God, so it would line up with your beliefs for you to interpret the verse that way. So, how exactly do you interpret the verse then? Keeping in mind that the context of John 6:29 is established in verse 27.


You certainly seemed to imply it, so it would be great if you would clarify exactly how you interpret John 6:29.


How does that make sense when I simply reiterated what I had already said about faith coming before becoming a child of God. How can you think that being saved and becoming a child of God are not the same thing?


<sigh> Yeah, I've never thought about it before right? You can accuse me of many things and I'm sure you do privately and you even sometimes do publicly, but what you can't accuse me of is not having thought about all of these things that we're talking about. I have thought a lot about them.


LOL! Undeniably, eh? That's a word that another poster likes to frequently use in relation to his deniable opinions. Too funny.

Can you be any more vague than referring to faith as God's assurance? What does that even mean? Do you not think that faith involves personal trust in God/Christ?

Ephesians 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

What do you think it means to trust in Christ? Do you not think that relates to faith?


<sigh> Salvation requires both God's grace and our faith in order to occur. The jailer asked Paul and Silas what he had to do in order to be saved and they said he had to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So, he had to first believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and then he would be saved. And, of course, God's grace precedes salvation as well. Without God's grace it wouldn't be possible for us to put our faith in Christ, but He offers salvation to all people by way of placing their faith in Christ and you must first place your faith in Christ in order to then be saved. This is actually very simple, but Calvinism makes everything very convoluted.

You are such a Little clown with nothing better to do.
Following me around like a little kid mocking and being a coward.

Reminds me of the devil following the men of God around mocking and menacing.

SMH.