Why did Jesus pray to himself?

[Lambano]

When a person does not really care about understanding or believing in the triune God of the Bible, they insincerely pose questions, hoping to poke holes in the orthodoxy of young, immature believers. They seek to display the superiority of their skepticism over the doctrine they mock, to their own eternal detriment.

I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt. There are legitimate reasons for taking a Unitarian / Monotheist position. I'm okay with that. I only require that a person know what they believe and be able to articulate why they believe it.

And if he just wants to stir the pot, meh. It's not the first time, nor will it be the last.

 

[Anchorite]

T

I'm willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt. There are legitimate reasons for taking a Unitarian / Monotheist position. I'm okay with that. I only require that a person know what they believe and be able to articulate why they believe it.

And if he just wants to stir the pot, meh. It's not the first time, nor will it be the last.

The OP has a posting history. Watch his reactions to those who try to provide answers to his questions.

I give people scrutiny, not the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Jay Ross]

When a person keeps asking questions, but trashes any answers that are provided, and insults the individuals trying to help them understand, the purpose of the questioning becomes clear.

I like this sentence as it provides an understanding of the science of the put down

 

[ScottA]

But God is Jesus and Jesus is God. They are one-in-the-same. or so I'm told. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both just God putting on a different outfit, so to speak. All three have eternally existed because, after all, all three are actually God. At least this is what most Christians teach.

So my question again is, why did God pray to himself?

It's a good question, and indeed, the idea of Three being One God is difficult to understand by most.

But even among men, if I said, "me", "myself" and "I"--does that make a trinity? Well, kind of--but technically--no. If one day I said, "I am a Teacher", and another day I said, "I am a son", and another, "I am a father." Trinity? Kind of, again, and certainly to those who only knew me as one and not the other(s)...so it might seem.

So, the question of "Why did Jesus pray to himself?" is answered: It would be like me saying to myself--"Self...if it is possible...etc." But there is more to it. God created a world, a universe, people and everything that exists. It's vast beyond numeration, and as simple as we may sometimes consider, it is also vastly more complex than can even be imagined. Wherein He also created characters representing every aspect of His purpose--even among men. Just imagine: God created one man Adam "in whom" all sin, and One a life-giving spirit "in whom" all who have life eternal have their place. So, in the unfolding process that Jesus then refolds anew, One character represents "God with us"--seemingly having His own body, voice, and perhaps even His own identity. Amazing to say the least! But again--If I said, "I have made a movie, and Mr. Smith, is staring as Mr. Big"...and when interviewed Mr. Smith referred to Mr. Big and the story line, as if he were talking about a different person...--are there two men then--or just one?

 

[PS95]

This I must object to. Names are personal identifiers, and the name of YHWH in the OT identifies the person of the Father.

I take the position that it is not proper to apply a personal name to an essence, such a calling the essence of tree-ness the name of "Harry" (though you can call individual trees "Harry").

It is also not proper to say that the Son and the Father are the same person; that is the Modalist or Sabellianist heresy.

Lambano-
I am not a Modalist. I mentioned them in one of my posts above. The 'Oneness' Pentecostals are Modalists. I did not say they are the same person. I said they are distinct persons- yet one in nature. I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you must have misread.

That's ok with me if you disagree about the name. It certainly isn't Modalism to share a name if that's where you got that idea. I didn't just pull something as important as that out of my hat though. I have reasons for saying it. It's really rather simple to me- in the OT where men were with YHWH- and since no man has seen God at anytime- I expect that they were seeing the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus- the Word of God. Who else? The only one in heaven aside from the Father that I know of who is worthy to be called YHVY is the Lord. He clearly was called by the tetragrammaton numerous times. Whether it states messenger of YHVH or Word -He is called, YHVH.
Theophanies- I think there are about 60 of them in the OT. I have a list somewhere..
This representative / messenger is frequently called YHWH and Elohim, that is, God. He is also called God's presence- The Jews called this Shekinah. Ex 33:15 --Ex 23:21 is very interesting. No one that I know of believes that he is not YHVH-"my name here = The manifestation of My being. The ‘name’ is almost objective reality.. it is almost a personal manifestation of Jehovah. Yet no man has seen God..
I know of no one else who God had given His name to other than the Lord Jesus. John 17:11 I'm aware that verse can be taken several ways. Doesn't matter either way to me. I don't know what you do with Theophanies, but I can guarantee you that another being is clearly called YHVH in the OT. -I say it's the Lord Jesus. I'm not alone on that conclusion- that's for sure.

 

[David Lamb]

I share your view.

Did the Father create the Son? How about the Holy Spirit?

No, God the Father did not create God the Son. John 1:1-3 & 14 make this clear:

(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(Joh 1:2) He was in the beginning with God.
(Joh 1:3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(Joh 1:14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Verse 14 makes it clear that by "the Word" John is referring to Jesus Christ. Far from being created Himself, it is through the Son that all things were created. The Holy Spirit was already in existence at the beginning of Creation, too:

(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
(Gen 1:2) The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The Son and the Holy Spirit were no more created than the Father.

 

[LoveYeshua]

to argue this is just not worth it.

People think it's worth it.

In the end it's a lost cause.

You decide for yourself at the end of the day...

there is only ONE truth, Jesus and God our father in Heaven are distinct it's all over the Bible that also say they are one.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Matthew 26:39
And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

Please read slowly John chapter 17 and absorb it, the words of that chapter is the key, you will understand that they are distinct.

 

[Wrangler]

"Jesus" is the SON OF GOD. He prayed to HIs FATHER. Why can't you get that? "

Mainly because the NT only recognizes one God, the Father. It's in every Epistle. You could not have missed it.

There is no 'God the Son' or 'God the Holy Spirit' anywhere in Scripture for very good reason. There is many times explicitly stated, 'God the Father.' This has meaning to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Otherwise, one puts themselves at odds with:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture
5. Implications from Scripture

Regarding the false claim of equality, the son of God has a name; the Holy Spirit has no name. The son of God was given all authority. I'll let you do the math of how much authority that leaves for the Holy Spirit.

 

[PS95]

No, God the Father did not create God the Son. John 1:1-3 & 14 make this clear:

(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(Joh 1:2) He was in the beginning with God.
(Joh 1:3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

(Joh 1:14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Verse 14 makes it clear that by "the Word" John is referring to Jesus Christ. Far from being created Himself, it is through the Son that all things were created. The Holy Spirit was already in existence at the beginning of Creation, too:

(Gen 1:1) In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
(Gen 1:2) The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The Son and the Holy Spirit were no more created than the Father.

Amen

I share your view.

Did the Father create the Son? How about the Holy Spirit?

No. That is a JW lie. I asked you before if you would fall on your face if the Lord stood in front of you. I guess you had a hard time answering that? Let me help you. First read what David Lamb wrote again. When done- focus on this part- in Orange
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
------------------------
In the Greek- Nothing means NOT EVEN ONE same as English NO-THING. Nothing was made without Jesus that was made. No- thing.. As if that wasn't enough John also said--- ALL things were made through Him. Notice how-John went the extra mile to assure us of this truth. He could not have said it any clearer than he did. Say it out loud to yourself- Nothing- No- thing.
------------------------
10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
------------------------------
and here-
Rev 5:11
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
13And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
14Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.

-----------------------
We see "every creature" (in heaven etc) praising and worshiping God and the Lamb. Creatures don't worship other creatures. We worship God.

The Word was in the beginning with God. Our bible begins with, In the beginning God....​

What we are told is that preincarnate Jesus was there before time began- in eternity- with God the Father and no- thing was created without Him. Does that sound like a created being? Not to me! We don't put our faith in the name of a creature.
Our brains want to fully comprehend God- we can't. We can see dimly. One day we will see Him as He is.- we have that hope!

 

[PS95]

Mainly because the NT only recognizes one God, the Father. It's in every Epistle. You could not have missed it.

There is no 'God the Son' or 'God the Holy Spirit' anywhere in Scripture for very good reason. There is many times explicitly stated, 'God the Father.' This has meaning to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Otherwise, one puts themselves at odds with:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture
5. Implications from Scripture

Regarding the false claim of equality, the son of God has a name; the Holy Spirit has no name. The son of God was given all authority. I'll let you do the math of how much authority that leaves for the Holy Spirit.

I am not interested in a debate with you Wrangler- a person who insists "Jesus lied" multiple times has no place in my faith.
Coming from an upbringing of JWs do you seriously think you can stump me with that? Save it.

 

[LoveYeshua]

Mainly because the NT only recognizes one God, the Father. It's in every Epistle. You could not have missed it.

There is no 'God the Son' or 'God the Holy Spirit' anywhere in Scripture for very good reason. There is many times explicitly stated, 'God the Father.' This has meaning to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Otherwise, one puts themselves at odds with:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture
5. Implications from Scripture

Regarding the false claim of equality, the son of God has a name; the Holy Spirit has no name. The son of God was given all authority. I'll let you do the math of how much authority that leaves for the Holy Spirit.

The confusion often comes because some people mix two different ideas together:

1. Is the Father the only true God?
2. Is Jesus the same person as the Father?

The Bible clearly teaches that the Father and the Son are distinct persons. Jesus is not the Father, and the Father is not Jesus. They speak to each other, love each other, send each other, and bear witness of each other.

Jesus Himself said:

“I am One that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.”
John 8:18 (ASV)

Two witnesses cannot be the same person.

Jesus also prayed to the Father:

“Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
John 17:5 (ASV)

Here Jesus speaks of being with the Father before the world existed. This shows distinction.

Jesus repeatedly speaks of the Father as someone separate from Himself:

“For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”
John 6:38 (ASV)

One who sends and one who is sent are distinct.

Again Jesus says:

“My Father is greater than I.”
John 14:28 (ASV)

This alone destroys the idea that Jesus is the Father Himself.

At Jesus’ baptism all three are shown distinctly:

“And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Matthew 3:16–17 (ASV)

Jesus is in the water.
The Father speaks from heaven.
The Spirit descends like a dove.

Three distinct realities are present at the same time.
Jesus also said:

“If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father.”
John 14:28 (ASV)

You do not “go to” yourself.

Even after resurrection Jesus still distinguishes Himself from God the Father:

“I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”
John 20:17 (ASV)

The apostles also kept this distinction clear.

Peter the Apostle said:

“Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him.”
Acts 2:22 (ASV)

God worked through Jesus. Distinction again.

John the Apostle wrote:

“And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”
1 John 1:3 (ASV)

The Father and the Son are presented as two.

Even the Old Testament foretold this distinction:

“Jehovah said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand.”
Psalm 110:1 (ASV)

Jesus Himself used this verse in Matthew 22:41–46. One speaks to another.

Now regarding the claim that because the Holy Spirit has no personal name therefore He is not distinct or important, Scripture never uses that argument. The Spirit speaks, teaches, guides, testifies, and can be grieved.

Jesus said:

“But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things.”
John 14:26 (ASV)

Again:

“When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth.”
John 16:13 (ASV)

And:

“Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God.”
Ephesians 4:30 (ASV)

Something impersonal cannot be grieved.

The Bible absolutely teaches distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But it also teaches unity between them. Jesus said:

“I and the Father are one.”
John 10:30 (ASV)

Not one person, but one in unity, purpose, and divine authority.

Jesus never taught that He was the Father. Instead He constantly pointed people to the Father while also revealing Himself as the Son sent from heaven.

 

[Wrangler]

I am not interested in a debate with you Wrangler- a person who insists "Jesus lied" multiple times has no place in my faith.
Coming from an upbringing of JWs do you seriously think you can stump me with that? Save it.

I'm OK with that.

The difference between us is less that Jesus might have lied but rather the context, that Jesus is expected by some to tell his enemies, who are at war with him, the truth.

 

[PS95]

The confusion often comes because some people mix two different ideas together:

1. Is the Father the only true God?
2. Is Jesus the same person as the Father?

The Bible clearly teaches that the Father and the Son are distinct persons. Jesus is not the Father, and the Father is not Jesus. They speak to each other, love each other, send each other, and bear witness of each other.

Jesus Himself said:

Two witnesses cannot be the same person.

Jesus also prayed to the Father:

Here Jesus speaks of being with the Father before the world existed. This shows distinction.

Jesus repeatedly speaks of the Father as someone separate from Himself:

One who sends and one who is sent are distinct.

Again Jesus says:

This alone destroys the idea that Jesus is the Father Himself.

At Jesus’ baptism all three are shown distinctly:

Jesus is in the water.
The Father speaks from heaven.
The Spirit descends like a dove.

Three distinct realities are present at the same time.
Jesus also said:

You do not “go to” yourself.

Even after resurrection Jesus still distinguishes Himself from God the Father:

The apostles also kept this distinction clear.

Peter the Apostle said:

God worked through Jesus. Distinction again.

John the Apostle wrote:

The Father and the Son are presented as two.

Even the Old Testament foretold this distinction:

Jesus Himself used this verse in Matthew 22:41–46. One speaks to another.

Now regarding the claim that because the Holy Spirit has no personal name therefore He is not distinct or important, Scripture never uses that argument. The Spirit speaks, teaches, guides, testifies, and can be grieved.

Jesus said:

Again:


And:


Something impersonal cannot be grieved.

The Bible absolutely teaches distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But it also teaches unity between them. Jesus said:

Not one person, but one in unity, purpose, and divine authority.

Jesus never taught that He was the Father. Instead He constantly pointed people to the Father while also revealing Himself as the Son sent from heaven.

Romans 8
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
----------------
When we read that - how can we not see some sort of trinity? Defining to a tee is impossible to my finite mind, but I do see it.
-----------------
and here- 2 Cor 3
14But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
--------------------
Paul clearly blurred together Father- Son and Holy Spirit as one. Yet, he also clearly made distinctions by persons. It was thrilling to me when I realized this!
I was taught it was all evil--- my goodness, NO!

 

[Wrangler]

When we read that - how can we not see some sort of trinity?

Seeing what is not there is a common human experience.

See 'some sort' of trinity? To answer your question, what you've presented is nothing like the doctrine of the trinity. To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is in the Bible – explicitly or implicitly. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once! Yet, trinitarians act as though it is the central message of Scripture!

 

[PS95]

Seeing what is not there is a common human experience.

See 'some sort' of trinity? To answer your question, what you've presented is nothing like the doctrine of the trinity. To be clear, when I write that the trinity is not found anywhere in Scripture, I mean that neither the word nor the concept of the trinity is in the Bible – explicitly or implicitly. To avoid the inevitable Appeal to Strawman, there simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once! Yet, trinitarians act as though it is the central message of Scripture!

What I said was some sort of a trinity. I did not define it. I don't do the specifics. I don't know!
If you don't see the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit I would challenge your ability to read!- oh well.- Wrangler. I am not taking your bait to argue this issue with a Uni who calls Jesus a liar. --
I sure do see what is said. .. How many times have I told you we have nothing to discuss further? I don't hate you- but I find what you teach to be utterly heretical- even beneath a Jw- that doesn't go much lower. If that offends you- too bad. The Lord Jesus had no sin or deceit in His mouth. You say otherwise.---- Jesus taught through parables for a purpose- He fulfilled the scriptures-
Matthew 13

10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

16“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17“For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

John 12:41-43
These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. 42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Isaiah and John saw His glory- - So do I.

Take care Wrangler- I have no more to say to you.

 

[Justified]

Mainly because the NT only recognizes one God, the Father. It's in every Epistle. You could not have missed it.

There is no 'God the Son' or 'God the Holy Spirit' anywhere in Scripture for very good reason. There is many times explicitly stated, 'God the Father.' This has meaning to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Otherwise, one puts themselves at odds with:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture
5. Implications from Scripture

Regarding the false claim of equality, the son of God has a name; the Holy Spirit has no name. The son of God was given all authority. I'll let you do the math of how much authority that leaves for the Holy Spirit.

The irony is, I have repeatedly pointed out all those issues with your position, and others likely have as well. In instances where the Bible is plain and clear you twist the claims to mean something that the context doesn’t support. That the Son is true deity but not the Father is mentioned explicitly and implicitly throughout the NT, from beginning to end.

Any idea of the Son as less than truly God, results in deficient god that cannot be the God of the Bible. That is the implication from Scripture.

Tritheism cannot be correct; Modalism/Oneness cannot be correct; a unitarian view cannot be correct. The doctrine of the Trinity best takes into account all that God reveals of himself in the Bible.

 

[MatthewG]

Okay.

People also divide and try to argue and then say oh that person is not a christian behind their back to other people....

It's really crappy attitude in my opinion.

Just let people be and allow them to think for themselves.

I have no problem with the trinity believers.... I just don't see the way that they do and that is okay.



I have shared my views on this thread already so I have no need to repeat myself.


People have to think and decide for themselves.... and people are free to choose as they want... not everyone got everything down perfectly.


God knows.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Why did Jesus pray to himself?​

He didn't.


Heb 5:7-8 For Jesus, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong cryings and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared, (8) though being a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

 

[MatthewG]

He didn't.


Heb 5:7-8 For Jesus, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong cryings and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared, (8) though being a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

The only other choice is active denial.