Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[CTK]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul gives us enough markers for identifying the term, "lawlessness," the "timing"of when this "lawlessness begins and ends," and the ability to identify the man of lawlessness. If one can identify each of his marker's in Scripture and history, then the field of possible candidates becomes very narrow. Further, if one were to bring in the Book of Daniel, we will find we will find Daniel and Paul are identifying the same indiividual and time in history.

A. The chronological sequence Paul gives - (These are the time-order elements):​

1. The Thessalonians are being deceived about the day of the Lord
   Paul begins with: “Let no one deceive you.” The whole issue is whether Christ’s return had already come or was immediately present.
2. The falling away must come first
   Before the day of the Lord, there must be an apostasy — a departure from truth within the professed people of God.
3. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work
   The principle is already operating in Paul’s day, but not yet fully visible.
4. Something is restraining it
   The lawlessness is active, but prevented from reaching its full revealed form.
5. The restraint must be removed
   Paul says the restrainer continues “until he is taken out of the way.”
6. Then the lawless one is revealed
   The hidden principle becomes an identifiable power.
7. This power continues until Christ destroys it at His coming
   That means it cannot be merely a first-century figure who came and went. It continues until the final return of Christ.

So, before we go on to discuss the characteristics of the "man of lawlessness," can we use the above 7 markers to begin to discover this fellow?

B. The identifying characteristics of the power - (These describe what this lawless power is like):​

1. Self-exaltation
   He “exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped.”
2. Religious usurpation
   He “sits in the temple of God,” meaning he takes a position inside the sphere of God’s worship and people.
3. Claim of divine authority
   He “shows himself that he is God,” meaning he claims authority that belongs only to God.
4. Counterfeit spiritual power
   His coming is “according to the working of Satan,” with signs, lying wonders, and deception.
5. Opposition to truth
   People are deceived because they do not receive the love of the truth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul gives us enough markers for identifying the term, "lawlessness," the "timing"of when this "lawlessness begins and ends," and the ability to identify the man of lawlessness. If one can identify each of his marker's in Scripture and history, then the field of possible candidates becomes very narrow. Further, if one were to bring in the Book of Daniel, we will find we will find Daniel and Paul are identifying the same indiividual and time in history.

A. The chronological sequence Paul gives - (These are the time-order elements):​

1. The Thessalonians are being deceived about the day of the Lord
   Paul begins with: “Let no one deceive you.” The whole issue is whether Christ’s return had already come or was immediately present.
2. The falling away must come first
   Before the day of the Lord, there must be an apostasy — a departure from truth within the professed people of God.
3. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work
   The principle is already operating in Paul’s day, but not yet fully visible.
4. Something is restraining it
   The lawlessness is active, but prevented from reaching its full revealed form.
5. The restraint must be removed
   Paul says the restrainer continues “until he is taken out of the way.”
6. Then the lawless one is revealed
   The hidden principle becomes an identifiable power.
7. This power continues until Christ destroys it at His coming
   That means it cannot be merely a first-century figure who came and went. It continues until the final return of Christ.

So, before we go on to discuss the characteristics of the "man of lawlessness," can we use the above 7 markers to begin to discover this fellow?

Are you wanting to discuss them one at a time?

I'll give my understanding of the first two items on your list for now since they are directly related.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

So, what Paul is talking about here all relates to the day of the Lord (day of Christ) when our Lord Jesus Christ comes and we are gathered together to Him, which obviously has not yet occurred. What Paul is telling the Thessalonian believers in verse 2 is to not be troubled if anyone tried to tell them that the day of the Lord had already come because it would not come until the falling away (apostasy) comes first, and the man of sin/lawlessness is revealed. In verse 5, he asks them if they remember that he talked to them about these things in person, so he wanted to remind them that certain things had to happen first before the day of the Lord comes. He wanted to make sure they wouldn't think that they somehow missed being gathered to the Lord at His second coming and were about to experience His wrath that Paul had written to them about previously in relation to the day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10).

B. The identifying characteristics of the power - (These describe what this lawless power is like):

1. Self-exaltation
   He “exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped.”
2. Religious usurpation
   He “sits in the temple of God,” meaning he takes a position inside the sphere of God’s worship and people.
3. Claim of divine authority
   He “shows himself that he is God,” meaning he claims authority that belongs only to God.
4. Counterfeit spiritual power
   His coming is “according to the working of Satan,” with signs, lying wonders, and deception.
5. Opposition to truth
   People are deceived because they do not receive the love of the truth.

I think it should be discussed whether the man of lawlessness is talking about an individual man or about lawless mankind in general. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 it refers to "the man of God" in a general sense in relation to the people of God or possibly to the leaders in the church. Either way, it's not referring to an individual man of God. But, we can talk about the 7 items you listed above first if you want.

 

[CTK]

Are you wanting to discuss them one at a time?

I'll give my understanding of the first two items on your list for now since they are directly related.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

So, what Paul is talking about here all relates to the day of the Lord (day of Christ) when our Lord Jesus Christ comes and we are gathered together to Him, which obviously has not yet occurred. What Paul is telling the Thessalonian believers in verse 2 is to not be troubled if anyone tried to tell them that the day of the Lord had already come because it would not come until the falling away (apostasy) comes first, and the man of sin/lawlessness is revealed. In verse 5, he asks them if they remember that he talked to them about these things in person, so he wanted to remind them that certain things had to happen first before the day of the Lord comes. He wanted to make sure they wouldn't think that they somehow missed being gathered to the Lord at His second coming and were about to experience His wrath that Paul had written to them about previously in relation to the day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10).


I think it should be discussed whether the man of lawlessness is talking about an individual man or about lawless mankind in general. In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 it refers to "the man of God" in a general sense in relation to the people of God or possibly to the leaders in the church. Either way, it's not referring to an individual man of God. But, we can talk about the 7 items you listed above first if you want.

Yes, perhaps we can focus first on the 7 items listed in section A.

So yes, Paul is addressing their question about when Christ will return - did He already come ? So A1 is addressed. Now how about A2 and A3?

Thanks.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, perhaps we can focus first on the 7 items listed in section A.

So yes, Paul is addressing their question about when Christ will return - did He already come ? So A1 is addressed. Now how about A2 and A3?

Thanks.

I touched on A2 already as far as Paul indicating that the falling away had to occur first before the day of the Lord (the day Jesus comes when we are gathered to Him) occurs. Are you wanting to discuss what the falling away means what it entails exactly?

As for A3, the mystery of lawlessness already being at work, there is a discussion about this on another thread where someone is arguing that it's the revealing of the man of lawlessness that is being restrained rather than lawlessness itself, but I disagree. I think in order to determine what A3 is about, we have to discuss A4 as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

To me, what Paul is saying in this passage is that lawlessness was already occurring to an extent at the time he was writing the letter, but it was being restrained. It was occurring, but not without restraint. I believe He who restrains is the Holy Spirit. Because of the preaching of the gospel and the presence of the Holy Spirit working through Christians, lawlessness is restrained. Not completely, of course. But, to an extent. In verse 9 it seems to me that Paul is saying that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" is not occurring until the coming and revealing of the lawless one.

So, I take that to mean that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" is being restrained before the coming of the lawless one and then is no longer restrained once the lawless one comes and is revealed. This is why I relate this passage to Satan's little season that is described in Revelation 20:7-9. As an Amill, I believe that Satan will have a short time or little season when he is loosed and unrestrained (no longer bound/restrained) before the second coming of Christ. Paul is describing here in 2 Thessalonians 2 a restraint related to "the working of Satan" that will be loosed during a time just before the second coming of Christ, so that's why I see a connection there.

If lawlessness was not being restrained even when Paul was writing the letter, as preterists who think that Jesus came in 70 AD claim, then why would he have talked about a mass falling away occurring at some point in the future? It makes sense that it was lawlessness that Paul said was being restrained and if lawlessness is no longer being restrained, then that is what would lead to the mass falling away that Paul said had to occur first before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him.

 

[ScottA]

1. The Thessalonians are being deceived about the day of the Lord
   Paul begins with: “Let no one deceive you.” The whole issue is whether Christ’s return had already come or was immediately present.
2. The falling away must come first
   Before the day of the Lord, there must be an apostasy — a departure from truth within the professed people of God.
3. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work
   The principle is already operating in Paul’s day, but not yet fully visible.
4. Something is restraining it
   The lawlessness is active, but prevented from reaching its full revealed form.
5. The restraint must be removed
   Paul says the restrainer continues “until he is taken out of the way.”
6. Then the lawless one is revealed
   The hidden principle becomes an identifiable power.
7. This power continues until Christ destroys it at His coming
   That means it cannot be merely a first-century figure who came and went. It continues until the final return of Christ.

So, before we go on to discuss the characteristics of the "man of lawlessness," can we use the above 7 markers to begin to discover this fellow?

Using those seven markers then:

1. Not only the Thessalonians, but all people upon hearing there is such a day (of the Lord) are first deceived.
2. The Fall was in the beginning.
3. Lawlessness began in the garden, in the beginning.
4. What is restraining is the Fall and the revealing of each person involved since the beginning and until the last.
5. The knowledge of the fact that all who sin are all revealed, "but each one in his own order" must be fully realized (1 Corinthians 15:23).
6. Then, since the beginning, all who are lawless are revealed thereafter, "but each one in his own order."
7. Which continues in Christ from and unto the Beginning and the End. Such is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[CTK]

I touched on A2 already as far as Paul indicating that the falling away had to occur first before the day of the Lord (the day Jesus comes when we are gathered to Him) occurs. Are you wanting to discuss what the falling away means what it entails exactly?

As for A3, the mystery of lawlessness already being at work, there is a discussion about this on another thread where someone is arguing that it's the revealing of the man of lawlessness that is being restrained rather than lawlessness itself, but I disagree. I think in order to determine what A3 is about, we have to discuss A4 as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

To me, what Paul is saying in this passage is that lawlessness was already occurring to an extent at the time he was writing the letter, but it was being restrained. It was occurring, but not without restraint. I believe He who restrains is the Holy Spirit. Because of the preaching of the gospel and the presence of the Holy Spirit working through Christians, lawlessness is restrained. Not completely, of course. But, to an extent. In verse 9 it seems to me that Paul is saying that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" is not occurring until the coming and revealing of the lawless one.

So, I take that to mean that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" is being restrained before the coming of the lawless one and then is no longer restrained once the lawless one comes and is revealed. This is why I relate this passage to Satan's little season that is described in Revelation 20:7-9. As an Amill, I believe that Satan will have a short time or little season when he is loosed and unrestrained (no longer bound/restrained) before the second coming of Christ. Paul is describing here in 2 Thessalonians 2 a restraint related to "the working of Satan" that will be loosed during a time just before the second coming of Christ, so that's why I see a connection there.

If lawlessness was not being restrained even when Paul was writing the letter, as preterists who think that Jesus came in 70 AD claim, then why would he have talked about a mass falling away occurring at some point in the future? It makes sense that it was lawlessness that Paul said was being restrained and if lawlessness is no longer being restrained, then that is what would lead to the mass falling away that Paul said had to occur first before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him.

Before we identify the restrainer, I think we need to ask a more basic question: what is the lawlessness Paul says was already at work in his own day?

Paul does not say the mystery of lawlessness would only begin at the end of time. He says, “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.” So whatever this lawlessness is, it had first-century roots.

But Paul also says this lawlessness was being restrained at that same time. That means two things were true when Paul wrote: the mystery was already working, and the restrainer was already restraining.

That is why I struggle to make the restrainer an end-time-only event. The restrainer must be something already present in Paul’s day, already known to the Thessalonians, and already limiting the full revealing of the lawless one.

Paul even says, “now you know what is restraining.” So apparently, he had already taught them enough that they could identify what was holding this power back.

So the question becomes: what was already present in the first century, strong enough to restrain the full revealing of this lawless power, but would later be removed?

Paul’s sequence seems to be: the mystery is already working, the restraint is already present, the restraint will later be removed, then the lawless one will be revealed, and that power continues until Christ destroys it at His coming. So after the lawlessness one is revealed AND the lawlessness continues - even more so. That means the restrainer was something Paul had already discussed with them and something they could recognize in their own first-century setting.

If Paul meant the Holy Spirit, that would be a very unusual way to speak. The Holy Spirit is not an obscure restraining force that Paul would avoid naming. Paul freely speaks of the Spirit elsewhere. If he meant “the Holy Spirit,” why not say so plainly?

What do you think?

​

 

[CTK]

Using those seven markers then:

1. Not only the Thessalonians, but all people upon hearing there is such a day (of the Lord) are first deceived.
2. The Fall was in the beginning.
3. Lawlessness began in the garden, in the beginning.
4. What is restraining is the Fall and the revealing of each person involved since the beginning and until the last.
5. The knowledge of the fact that all who sin are all revealed, "but each one in his own order" must be fully realized (1 Corinthians 15:23).
6. Then, since the beginning, all who are lawless are revealed thereafter, "but each one in his own order."
7. Which continues in Christ from and unto the Beginning and the End. Such is the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

I agree that lawlessness, in the broadest sense, began in Eden. Sin entered the world through rebellion against God. But I do not think that is what Paul is specifically identifying in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Paul is not giving a general theology of sin from Genesis to Revelation. He is answering a specific question about the timing of the day of the Lord. The Thessalonians were troubled, and Paul says that day cannot come until certain identifiable events occur first.

That means Paul’s “mystery of lawlessness” is more specific than the general fact that all people sin. He says this mystery was already at work in his day, was being restrained at that time, would later be revealed in the lawless one, and would finally be destroyed by Christ at His coming.

If lawlessness here simply means all sin from Eden onward, then Paul’s sequence becomes difficult to follow. What does it mean that the Fall is restraining lawlessness? How is the Fall later taken out of the way? And how would that explain Paul saying the Thessalonians already knew what was restraining?

Paul’s language points to something more specific: a hidden lawless principle already operating in the first century, restrained from full manifestation, later revealed in a definable power, and continuing until Christ destroys it.

So while Eden explains the origin of sin generally, it does not identify the particular prophetic lawlessness Paul is describing in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Before we identify the restrainer, I think we need to ask a more basic question: what is the lawlessness Paul says was already at work in his own day?

Paul does not say the mystery of lawlessness would only begin at the end of time. He says, “the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.”

Yeah, I didn't say otherwise.

So whatever this lawlessness is, it had first-century roots.

Right. To some extent, anyway. I see this as being similar to Jesus talking about there being an increase in wickedness at some point. He wasn't saying there wasn't any wickedness at that time, but there would be a significant, presumably noticeable increase in wickedness at some point.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

See how similar this is to what Paul wrote about? Like Paul, Jesus talked about a time of mass apostasy. And He said there would be an increase in wickedness causing the love of most to grow cold. So, I think this supports the idea that what is being restrained is lawlessness (wickedness). And, based on what Jesus said here, I would say the lawlessness relates to people turning away from the faith and false prophets deceiving people and such. Those things were happening back then, but were restrained to an extent. When the restraint is loosed, then wickedness, deception and apostasy would increase.

But Paul also says this lawlessness was being restrained at that same time. That means two things were true when Paul wrote: the mystery was already working, and the restrainer was already restraining.

Agree.

That is why I struggle to make the restrainer an end-time-only event.

I didn't say that it was an end time only event. The restraining has been happening since the first century. I personally relate it to the binding of Satan which began around the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The restrainer must be something already present in Paul’s day, already known to the Thessalonians, and already limiting the full revealing of the lawless one.

Right. Did you think I was saying otherwise? If so, what did I say to give you that impression?

Paul even says, “now you know what is restraining.” So apparently, he had already taught them enough that they could identify what was holding this power back.

Right. But, he didn't specify what that was in his letter. However, he reminded them in verse 5 that he had talked to them about these things in person, so I think it's safe to say that he specified who or what was restraining when he talked to them about this in person.

So the question becomes: what was already present in the first century, strong enough to restrain the full revealing of this lawless power, but would later be removed?

The Holy Spirit. And, here is where dispensationalists go astray. The think this means the Holy Spirit has to be removed from the earth in order to no longer restrain and that's why they think the church is removed from the earth before the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin occurs, which blatantly contradicts what Paul indicated in verse 3. It's the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that is removed, not the Holy Spirit Himself or the church that the Holy Spirit dwells in itself.

Paul’s sequence seems to be: the mystery is already working, the restraint is already present, the restraint will later be removed, then the lawless one will be revealed, and that power continues until Christ destroys it at His coming.

Agree.

So after the lawlessness one is revealed AND the lawlessness continues - even more so. That means the restrainer was something Paul had already discussed with them and something they could recognize in their own first-century setting.

Yes, exactly.

If Paul meant the Holy Spirit, that would be a very unusual way to speak.

Don't you think the whole text of 2 Thessalonians 2 is a very unusual way to speak? He clearly was not speaking straightforwardly in most of that passage. So, I don't see this as a viable argument against the restrainer being the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not an obscure restraining force that Paul would avoid naming.

He was obviously being obscure at times throughout the passage. He didn't specify who or what the man of lawlessness is exactly. He didn't specify what the temple of God is exactly. So, again, I just don't see this as being a viable argument against the restrainer being the Holy Spirit. We're talking about lawlessness being restrained, right? Only God can restrain lawlessness.

Paul freely speaks of the Spirit elsewhere. If he meant “the Holy Spirit,” why not say so plainly?

Why not plainly indicate what the temple of God that he referenced is (physical temple, the church, our bodies, etc.?). Why not plainly indicate who or what the man of lawlessnesss is? He clearly was not trying to be plain about what he was talking about in some of that passage.

What do you think?

See above. I'm someone who replies to each point as I read a post instead of reading a whole post and then giving my thoughts.

Anyway, are you planning to share your own thoughts on these things at some point?

 

[CTK]

Yeah, I didn't say otherwise.


Right. To some extent, anyway. I see this as being similar to Jesus talking about there being an increase in wickedness at some point. He wasn't saying there wasn't any wickedness at that time, but there would be a significant, presumably noticeable increase in wickedness at some point.

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

See how similar this is to what Paul wrote about? Like Paul, Jesus talked about a time of mass apostasy. And He said there would be an increase in wickedness causing the love of most to grow cold. So, I think this supports the idea that what is being restrained is lawlessness (wickedness). And, based on what Jesus said here, I would say the lawlessness relates to people turning away from the faith and false prophets deceiving people and such. Those things were happening back then, but were restrained to an extent. When the restraint is loosed, then wickedness, deception and apostasy would increase.


Agree.


I didn't say that it was an end time only event. The restraining has been happening since the first century. I personally relate it to the binding of Satan which began around the time of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


Right. Did you think I was saying otherwise? If so, what did I say to give you that impression?


Right. But, he didn't specify what that was in his letter. However, he reminded them in verse 5 that he had talked to them about these things in person, so I think it's safe to say that he specified who or what was restraining when he talked to them about this in person.

The Holy Spirit. And, here is where dispensationalists go astray. The think this means the Holy Spirit has to be removed from the earth in order to no longer restrain and that's why they think the church is removed from the earth before the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin occurs, which blatantly contradicts what Paul indicated in verse 3. It's the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that is removed, not the Holy Spirit Himself or the church that the Holy Spirit dwells in itself.

Verse 3 is clear that the falling away and revealing of the man of lawlessness occur before the day of the Lord and our gathering to Christ.

But I still have difficulty identifying Paul’s specific restrainer as the Holy Spirit’s restraining influence.

Paul does not simply describe a general decrease of spiritual restraint at the end of time. He says the Thessalonians already knew what was restraining, that the mystery of lawlessness was already at work, that the restraint was already operating in Paul’s day, and that the restrainer would continue until being taken out of the way. Then the lawless one would be revealed.

So the question remains: what specific first-century restraint was Paul referring to, and when was it taken out of the way?

If the answer is “the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit,” then we still have to explain how that was something the Thessalonians could identify, how it was later removed in history, and how its removal produced the revealing of the lawless one. So when the restrainer was taken out of the way, the lawlessness one was then revealed and would continue his lawless ways, even more, until the return of Christ.

I agree the Holy Spirit restrains evil in a general sense. But Paul seems to be describing a specific prophetic restraint tied to the timing of the lawless one’s revealing.


Also, please consider:

1 John 4:3 — “the spirit of the Antichrist… is now already in the world”

John says:

“This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.”
1 John 4:3

Again, this strongly parallels Paul.

Paul: the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.
John: the spirit of Antichrist is already in the world.

This does not mean the final form was fully revealed in the first century. But it does mean the seed, spirit, and principle were already present.


Acts 20:29–30 — corruption would arise from within

Paul warned the Ephesian elders:

“From among your own selves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
Acts 20:30

This is important because it shows Paul expected the danger to arise from within the professed church, not only from outside persecution.

That fits 2 Thessalonians 2 very well if the “temple of God” is understood as the visible sphere of God’s people.


1 Timothy 4:1–3 — latter-time departure from the faith

Paul says:

“In latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...”
1 Timothy 4:1

This connects lawlessness with apostasy, doctrinal corruption, and deceiving spirits, and importantly, this does not seem to identity an end time event. The lawlessness one will, in latter times (after he is unrestrained), will continue to decieve, corrupt, etc.


So, can you see that:

1) lawlessness had essentially begun after the cross in Paul's day,

2) the restrainer was also present during this same time period,

3) the restrainer was then taken away,

4) the man of lawlessness was revealed,

5) he would continue deceiving, corrupting matters against the kingdom of God to a greater decree once the "restrainer" was removed,

6) the lawlessness one would continue until the return of Christ,

Everything in Scripture is pointing not to an end time lawlessness one but one who was present even in Paul's day - in a seed form. He would continue to develop over the coming centuries until the "restrainer" was removed and he would then come to full power....


What do you think?

Agree.


Yes, exactly.


Don't you think the whole text of 2 Thessalonians 2 is a very unusual way to speak? He clearly was not speaking straightforwardly in most of that passage. So, I don't see this as a viable argument against the restrainer being the Holy Spirit.


He was obviously being obscure at times throughout the passage. He didn't specify who or what the man of lawlessness is exactly. He didn't specify what the temple of God is exactly. So, again, I just don't see this as being a viable argument against the restrainer being the Holy Spirit. We're talking about lawlessness being restrained, right? Only God can restrain lawlessness.


Why not plainly indicate what the temple of God that he referenced is (physical temple, the church, our bodies, etc.?). Why not plainly indicate who or what the man of lawlessnesss is? He clearly was not trying to be plain about what he was talking about in some of that passage.


See above. I'm someone who replies to each point as I read a post instead of reading a whole post and then giving my thoughts.

Anyway, are you planning to share your own thoughts on these things at some point?

 

[ScottA]

I agree that lawlessness, in the broadest sense, began in Eden. Sin entered the world through rebellion against God. But I do not think that is what Paul is specifically identifying in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Paul is not giving a general theology of sin from Genesis to Revelation. He is answering a specific question about the timing of the day of the Lord. The Thessalonians were troubled, and Paul says that day cannot come until certain identifiable events occur first.

That means Paul’s “mystery of lawlessness” is more specific than the general fact that all people sin. He says this mystery was already at work in his day, was being restrained at that time, would later be revealed in the lawless one, and would finally be destroyed by Christ at His coming.

If lawlessness here simply means all sin from Eden onward, then Paul’s sequence becomes difficult to follow. What does it mean that the Fall is restraining lawlessness? How is the Fall later taken out of the way? And how would that explain Paul saying the Thessalonians already knew what was restraining?

Paul’s language points to something more specific: a hidden lawless principle already operating in the first century, restrained from full manifestation, later revealed in a definable power, and continuing until Christ destroys it.

So while Eden explains the origin of sin generally, it does not identify the particular prophetic lawlessness Paul is describing in 2 Thessalonians 2.

You are correct about Paul being specific...but that is not a lone statement separate from all others. It still needs to reconcile with all of scripture. But the specific statement to this group or that is exactly how things work. I mean--or as he said--that does not make void other statements he has made. On the contrary, it reveals the method of God unto all people.

In other words, All of your seven markers could be said of Adam and Eve in the garden, but also of "this generation" to which just said, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation", or even more specifically than that when "the man of sin" was revealed on the cross next to Jesus, to whom He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Which is why I referred more than once to what Paul also said regarding all dead and all living, and even every individual, saying, "but, each one in his own order." Which reveals the fall of everyone individually, and God's method of revealing them individually--"but, each one in his own order."

So, Paul singling out the Thessalonians is no different really than God singling out Adam and Eve, or Jesus singling out the thief on the cross--but it is confusing if one does not consider the whole, and all that is written--which Paul completely summed up very concisely referring to all the dead, all the living, saying, "but, each one in his own order."

It's really that simple...and no argument can hold up against it--none.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Verse 3 is clear that the falling away and revealing of the man of lawlessness occur before the day of the Lord and our gathering to Christ.

Right.

But I still have difficulty identifying Paul’s specific restrainer as the Holy Spirit’s restraining influence.

What or who else would restrain lawlessness?

Paul does not simply describe a general decrease of spiritual restraint at the end of time. He says the Thessalonians already knew what was restraining, that the mystery of lawlessness was already at work, that the restraint was already operating in Paul’s day, and that the restrainer would continue until being taken out of the way. Then the lawless one would be revealed.

Right.

So the question remains: what specific first-century restraint was Paul referring to, and when was it taken out of the way?

The question remains for you, anyway.

If the answer is “the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit,” then we still have to explain how that was something the Thessalonians could identify, how it was later removed in history, and how its removal produced the revealing of the lawless one. So when the restrainer was taken out of the way, the lawlessness one was then revealed and would continue his lawless ways, even more, until the return of Christ.

I don't believe this is something that can be easily identified, but has to be spiritually discerned as far as when the restrainer is taken out of the way. The restraint being lifted coincides with an increase in deception, lawlessness and apostasy. I don't think it's as simple as being able to say "Oh look, the restrainer is being taken out of the way." or "Oh look, the lawless one is here.". Lawlessness is not an object that you can look at and watch it being restrained and then watch whatever is restraining it being taken out of the way.

I agree the Holy Spirit restrains evil in a general sense. But Paul seems to be describing a specific prophetic restraint tied to the timing of the lawless one’s revealing.

I don't know what you mean. We just look at this very differently, so that makes it difficult for us to discuss this.

Also, please consider:

1 John 4:3 — “the spirit of the Antichrist… is now already in the world”

John says:

“This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.”
1 John 4:3

I believe that is a bad translation of the verse. The word "the" before the word antichrist was added by the translators and is not in the original Greek. There is no individual Antichrist.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

This is not referring to a spirit of an individual Antichrist, but rather to a spirit or attitude of the spirit/heart that many antichrists that were already in the world had at that time which says that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh and that Jesus is not the Christ.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

John did not teach that there is just one Antichrist, but rather that there are many antichrists and that someone is antichrist and has the spirit of antichrist if they deny that Jesus is the Christ and has come in the flesh.

Again, this strongly parallels Paul.

Now, that I agree with.

Paul: the mystery of lawlessness is already at work.
John: the spirit of Antichrist is already in the world.

Yep. It's pretty clear to me that there is a connection there.

This does not mean the final form was fully revealed in the first century. But it does mean the seed, spirit, and principle were already present.

Right.

Acts 20:29–30 — corruption would arise from within

Paul warned the Ephesian elders:

“From among your own selves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
Acts 20:30

This is important because it shows Paul expected the danger to arise from within the professed church, not only from outside persecution.

That fits 2 Thessalonians 2 very well if the “temple of God” is understood as the visible sphere of God’s people.

I agree.

1 Timothy 4:1–3 — latter-time departure from the faith

Paul says:

“In latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...”
1 Timothy 4:1

This connects lawlessness with apostasy, doctrinal corruption, and deceiving spirits, and importantly, this does not seem to identity an end time event. The lawlessness one will, in latter times (after he is unrestrained), will continue to decieve, corrupt, etc.

I agree.

So, can you see that:

1) lawlessness had essentially begun after the cross in Paul's day,

2) the restrainer was also present during this same time period,

Agree.

3) the restrainer was then taken away,

Whoa. What? Where are you getting this idea from?

4) the man of lawlessness was revealed,

What are you talking about? You lost me. Did you forget to explain how you came to these conclusions? Who do you say was the man of lawlessness and how was he revealed exactly?

5) he would continue deceiving, corrupting matters against the kingdom of God to a greater decree once the "restrainer" was removed,

Wait a minute. Paul indicates that the man of lawlessness is revealed AFTER the restrainer is removed. Why do you have the man of lawlessness being revealed before the restrainer is removed?

6) the lawlessness one would continue until the return of Christ,

Everything in Scripture is pointing not to an end time lawlessness one but one who was present even in Paul's day - in a seed form.

I don't understand how you're coming to this conclusion, so you'll need to explain that.

He would continue to develop over the coming centuries until the "restrainer" was removed and he would then come to full power....


What do you think?

I think I don't understand what you're talking about and you'll need to explain what you're talking about.

 

[CTK]

You are correct about Paul being specific...but that is not a lone statement separate from all others. It still needs to reconcile with all of scripture. But the specific statement to this group or that is exactly how things work. I mean--or as he said--that does not make void other statements he has made. On the contrary, it reveals the method of God unto all people.

In other words, All of your seven markers could be said of Adam and Eve in the garden, but also of "this generation" to which just said, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation", or even more specifically than that when "the man of sin" was revealed on the cross next to Jesus, to whom He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Which is why I referred more than once to what Paul also said regarding all dead and all living, and even every individual, saying, "but, each one in his own order." Which reveals the fall of everyone individually, and God's method of revealing them individually--"but, each one in his own order."

So, Paul singling out the Thessalonians is no different really than God singling out Adam and Eve, or Jesus singling out the thief on the cross--but it is confusing if one does not consider the whole, and all that is written--which Paul completely summed up very concisely referring to all the dead, all the living, saying, "but, each one in his own order."

It's really that simple...and no argument can hold up against it--none.

Very well.

 

[CTK]

Right.


What or who else would restrain lawlessness?


Right.


The question remains for you, anyway.


I don't believe this is something that can be easily identified, but has to be spiritually discerned as far as when the restrainer is taken out of the way. The restraint being lifted coincides with an increase in deception, lawlessness and apostasy. I don't think it's as simple as being able to say "Oh look, the restrainer is being taken out of the way." or "Oh look, the lawless one is here.". Lawlessness is not an object that you can look at and watch it being restrained and then watch whatever is restraining it being taken out of the way.


I don't know what you mean. We just look at this very differently, so that makes it difficult for us to discuss this.


I believe that is a bad translation of the verse. The word "the" before the word antichrist was added by the translators and is not in the original Greek. There is no individual Antichrist.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

This is not referring to a spirit of an individual Antichrist, but rather to a spirit or attitude of the spirit/heart that many antichrists that were already in the world had at that time which says that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh and that Jesus is not the Christ.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

John did not teach that there is just one Antichrist, but rather that there are many antichrists and that someone is antichrist and has the spirit of antichrist if they deny that Jesus is the Christ and has come in the flesh.


Now, that I agree with.


Yep. It's pretty clear to me that there is a connection there.


Right.


I agree.


I agree.


Agree.


Whoa. What? Where are you getting this idea from?


What are you talking about? You lost me. Did you forget to explain how you came to these conclusions? Who do you say was the man of lawlessness and how was he revealed exactly?


Wait a minute. Paul indicates that the man of lawlessness is revealed AFTER the restrainer is removed. Why do you have the man of lawlessness being revealed before the restrainer is removed?


I don't understand how you're coming to this conclusion, so you'll need to explain that.


I think I don't understand what you're talking about and you'll need to explain what you're talking about.

As you know, there are more than a few interpretations on 2 Thessalonians 2. Most simply throw these verses into the end times and then build a story around it. Satan will come, 7 year tribulation, this is when he will be revealed, and so many other thoughts that have come to surround these verses. But again, almost everyone puts them some 2000 years after the time of Paul.

I wanted to try and identifry the 7 markers that came right out of Paul's writings so everyone can, hopefully, come to an interpretation that fits them all. Your interpretation is as good as anyone's - you believe an end time "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit and the lawlessness takes place at the end times before Christ comes and destroys .....

So, I am simply asking folks to consider these 7 markers to determine if their interpretation meets all of them. And although I recently brought in a few verses from Timothy, Acts and John, which I believe will / does assist us in the understanding of these entities and events in Paul's writings, I have not brought in the most compelling verses that desribe these individuals or events. As you know, no single verse or even a few verses stand alone - these verses must also fit like a glove with other verses in Scripture.

But you have asked me to identify MY thoughts on this... that is not the point of this. It is to define all the possible factors, characteristics, related verses, etc., that speak to a certain interpretation to ensure it is locked down. What I am interested is seeing others interpretations and their basis for their interpretations... rather than simply ask them for their opinion on these entities, the timing, etc., I thought if I presented these 7 markers, they could compare them to their findings.

There are so many smart folks here within this forum and I am sure most of them have a strong opinion on these verses, there would be more interaction and discussion... Here is that same list of questions that must be talked about.....

1) lawlessness had essentially begun after the cross in Paul's day,

2) the restrainer was also present during this same time period,

3) the restrainer was then taken away,

4) the man of lawlessness was revealed,

5) he would continue deceiving, corrupting matters against the kingdom of God to a greater decree once the "restrainer" was removed,

6) the lawlessness one would continue until the return of Christ - not arrive just before His return,

Everything in Scripture is pointing not to an end time lawlessness one but one who was present even in Paul's day - in a seed form. He would continue to develop over the coming centuries until the "restrainer" was removed and he would then come to full power....


What do you think?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As you know, there are more than a few interpretations on 2 Thessalonians 2.

Of course.

Most simply throw these verses into the end times and then build a story around it. Satan will come, 7 year tribulation, this is when he will be revealed, and so many other thoughts that have come to surround these verses

Well that's not me.

But again, almost everyone puts them some 2000 years after the time of Paul.

Puts what 2000 years after the time of Paul exactly? I'm sure almost everyone agrees that the mystery of lawlessness was already at work in Paul's time, as Paul explicitly said.

I wanted to try and identifry the 7 markers that came right out of Paul's writings so everyone can, hopefully, come to an interpretation that fits them all. Your interpretation is as good as anyone's - you believe an end time "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit and the lawlessness takes place at the end times before Christ comes and destroys .....

So, I am simply asking folks to consider these 7 markers to determine if their interpretation meets all of them.

Yes, and that's what I'm doing. What I'm asking you to do is explain how you came to the conclusions you listed in post #13.

And although I recently brought in a few verses from Timothy, Acts and John, which I believe will / does assist us in the understanding of these entities and events in Paul's writings,

They do. You did a good job of finding related passages and they are helpful.

I have not brought in the most compelling verses that desribe these individuals or events. As you know, no single verse or even a few verses stand alone - these verses must also fit like a glove with other verses in Scripture.

But you have asked me to identify MY thoughts on this... that is not the point of this.

That's...confusing. You want everyone else to discuss these things without you sharing your own thoughts? I don't get that.

It is to define all the possible factors, characteristics, related verses, etc., that speak to a certain interpretation to ensure it is locked down. What I am interested is seeing others interpretations and their basis for their interpretations... rather than simply ask them for their opinion on these entities, the timing, etc., I thought if I presented these 7 markers, they could compare them to their findings.

There are so many smart folks here within this forum and I am sure most of them have a strong opinion on these verses, there would be more interaction and discussion... Here is that same list of questions that must be talked about.....

1) lawlessness had essentially begun after the cross in Paul's day,

2) the restrainer was also present during this same time period,

3) the restrainer was then taken away,

I don't understand why you are saying "the restrainer was then taken away" here. If you want someone to comment on this, then you have to explain why you're saying this.

4) the man of lawlessness was revealed,

Same here. How can anyone comment on this if you don't explain when you think the man of lawlessness was revealed and how you think that happened exactly?

5) he would continue deceiving, corrupting matters against the kingdom of God to a greater decree once the "restrainer" was removed,

6) the lawlessness one would continue until the return of Christ - not arrive just before His return,

Everything in Scripture is pointing not to an end time lawlessness one but one who was present even in Paul's day - in a seed form. He would continue to develop over the coming centuries until the "restrainer" was removed and he would then come to full power....

You're making claims here, but at the same time you're not willing to explain why. How does that make for good discussion? I don't get it. I think I might just bow out of this discussion at this point unless you can give some idea for why you're saying some of these things.

What do you think?

I don't know what to think at this point. I've given my understanding of the passage and I think I'm done talking about it at this point. I have nothing to add unless you decide to give an explanation for some of the things you are claiming here. I'd be willing to share my thoughts on that if you ever do.

 

[covenantee]

Of course.


Well that's not me.


Puts what 2000 years after the time of Paul exactly? I'm sure almost everyone agrees that the mystery of lawlessness was already at work in Paul's time, as Paul explicitly said.


Yes, and that's what I'm doing. What I'm asking you to do is explain how you came to the conclusions you listed in post #13.


They do. You did a good job of finding related passages and they are helpful.


That's...confusing. You want everyone else to discuss these things without you sharing your own thoughts? I don't get that.


I don't understand why you are saying "the restrainer was then taken away" here. If you want someone to comment on this, then you have to explain why you're saying this.


Same here. How can anyone comment on this if you don't explain when you think the man of lawlessness was revealed and how you think that happened exactly?


You're making claims here, but at the same time you're not willing to explain why. How does that make for good discussion? I don't get it. I think I might just bow out of this discussion at this point unless you can give some idea for why you're saying some of these things.


I don't know what to think at this point. I've given my understanding of the passage and I think I'm done talking about it at this point. I have nothing to add unless you decide to give an explanation for some of the things you are claiming here. I'd be willing to share my thoughts on that if you ever do.

I think that both @CTK and myself are confident that the ECF's and early apologists foresaw this correctly.

History confirms it.

I don't believe that 2 Thessalonians 2 can be correctly understood without taking that foresight and history into account.

Here are their testimonies again.

The ECFs and apologists reveal the identity of the restrainer. So does history.

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.

John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...

Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430)
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem affirmed the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386)
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...

The early church believed that the pagan imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer (i.e. the "letter" or "withholder") which would eventually be "taken out of the way", and which, until then, was forestalling the emergence of the antichrist apostate papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as "that man of sin", "the son of perdition", and "that Wicked".

In the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for Paul not to explicitly identify Him. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

And the Thessalonians did know whereof Paul was speaking. 2 Thessalonians 2:5,6.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

And the Reformers recognized and understood both Paul and history.

 

[CTK]

Of course.


Well that's not me.


Puts what 2000 years after the time of Paul exactly? I'm sure almost everyone agrees that the mystery of lawlessness was already at work in Paul's time, as Paul explicitly said.


Yes, and that's what I'm doing. What I'm asking you to do is explain how you came to the conclusions you listed in post #13.


They do. You did a good job of finding related passages and they are helpful.


That's...confusing. You want everyone else to discuss these things without you sharing your own thoughts? I don't get that.


I don't understand why you are saying "the restrainer was then taken away" here. If you want someone to comment on this, then you have to explain why you're saying this.


Same here. How can anyone comment on this if you don't explain when you think the man of lawlessness was revealed and how you think that happened exactly?


You're making claims here, but at the same time you're not willing to explain why. How does that make for good discussion? I don't get it. I think I might just bow out of this discussion at this point unless you can give some idea for why you're saying some of these things.


I don't know what to think at this point. I've given my understanding of the passage and I think I'm done talking about it at this point. I have nothing to add unless you decide to give an explanation for some of the things you are claiming here. I'd be willing to share my thoughts on that if you ever do.

What do you think of the comments made in post #15 by @covenantee ? Could you please comment on whether pagan Rome could be the restrainer? What is being restrained? What happens to pagan Rome in 476 AD? Who succeeded pagan Rome? Does any of this sound familiar? Can you easily connect these comments to the Book of Daniel? Chapter 7, 8 and 11? Do you see a certain figure coming out of pagan Rome AFTER the cross -early part of chapter 7? Does Daniel show this new figure coming out of the 4th kingdom BEFORE its demise in 7:11 (476 AD)? Doesn't Daniel reveal all the horrible characteristics, actions and practices he will employ WHEN HE COMES TO FULL POWER in both chapter 7 and 8?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I think that both @CTK and myself are confident that the ECF's and early apologists foresaw this correctly.

Yeah, I don't place the same confidence in them that you guys do. You know this. We've talked about this before. Do you recall?

History confirms it.

So, you think.

I don't believe that 2 Thessalonians 2 can be correctly understood without taking that foresight and history into account.

I do. As you know...if you recall our past discussion about this. Is it your view that Satan's little season is only ever referenced in any way in Revelation 20?

Here are their witnesses again.

The ECFs and apologists reveal the identity of the restrainer. So does history.

Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?
APOLOGY, CHAP. XXXII.
There is also another and a greater necessity for our offering prayer in behalf of the emperors, nay, for the complete stability of the empire, and for Roman interests in general. For we know that a mighty shock im (43) pending over the whole earth--in fact, the very end of all things threatening dreadful woes---is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman empire.

John Chrysostom (c. 347-407)
Homilies on Second Thessalonians
HOMILY IV. 2 THESSALONIANS ii. 6--9.
"Only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way," that is, when the Roman empire is taken out of the way...

Augustine of Hippo (345 - 430)
City of God, Book XX, Chapter 19
For what does he [Paul] mean by "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way: and then shall the wicked be revealed?" [2 Thess 2] I frankly confess I do not know what he means. ... However, it is not absurd to believe that these words of the apostle, "Only he who now holdeth, let him hold until he be taken out of the way," refer to the Roman empire, as if it were said, "Only he who now reigneth, let him reign until he be taken out of the way." "And then shall the wicked be revealed:" no one doubts that this means Antichrist.

I think I may have pointed this out to you before when we talked about this in the past, but you are putting your trust in the opinions of people that you and I both strongly disagree with on other things. Tertullian was a premillennialist. John Calvin was largely influenced by Augustine's writings and we both strongly disagree with Calvinism. Why do you put so much trust in the opinions of these guys about this when you know they are very wrong about other things?

While not commenting directly upon the 2 Thessalonians 2 passage, Cyril of Jerusalem affirmed the historical consensus that antichrist would not appear until the Roman empire had disappeared:

Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-386)
Catechetical Lectures
LECTURE XV.
ON THE CLAUSE, AND SHALL COME IN GLORY TO JUDGE THE QUICK AND THE DEAD; OF WHOSE KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END, DANIEL vii. 9--14.
12. But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire shall have been fulfilled...

It's typical for people to look at Bible prophecy only through the lens of what's going on during their lifetimes (we see people doing that still today), so I don't find this to be convincing. He also appears to have believed in an individual Antichrist even though there are many antichrist and not just one. I see no reason to trust that we should get our understanding of 2 Thess 2 from him.

The early church believed that the pagan imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer (i.e. the "letter" or "withholder") which would eventually be "taken out of the way", and which, until then, was forestalling the emergence of the antichrist apostate papal Roman empire, which Paul describes as "that man of sin", "the son of perdition", and "that Wicked".

Again, it's natural for people to think that the fulfillment of Bible prophecy relates to what is going on in their lifetimes. I'm just not convinced by this at all. Sorry. We can agree to disagree. I know you have a strong opinion about this, but so do I. And I could not care less about what some ancient guys from long ago who were not the authors of the Bible thought about this, knowing that many of them were very wrong about other things.

In the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for Paul not to explicitly identify Him.

Did you forget that Paul said he had already talked to them about these things in person? He revealed the identity of the restrainer to them when he talked to them about it in person, so he felt no need to do it again in his letter. That's not very helpful to us now, but that was his reason for that.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

No, the reason was that he had already told them the identity of the restrainer in person, so there was no need to repeat it in his letter.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

So, apparently, it is your view that lawlessness has been unrestrained for a long time already?

Here is what Paul said would accompany the coming and revealing of the man of lawlessness...

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

So, it's your view that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" has been unrestrained for a long time already? If so, what is your understanding of Satan's little season? What do you think is the difference between how things are during the thousand years and how things are during Satan's little season?

And the Reformers recognized and understood both Paul and history.

Many of the Reformers taught false doctrine, as you know. I'm honestly baffled as to why you put so much trust in their teachings.

 

[covenantee]

Yeah, I don't place the same confidence in them that you guys do. You know this. We've talked about this before. Do you recall?


So, you think.


I do. As you know...if you recall our past discussion about this. Is it your view that Satan's little season is only ever referenced in any way in Revelation 20?


I think I may have pointed this out to you before when we talked about this in the past, but you are putting your trust in the opinions of people that you and I both strongly disagree with on other things. Tertullian was a premillennialist. John Calvin was largely influenced by Augustine's writings and we both strongly disagree with Calvinism. Why do you put so much trust in the opinions of these guys about this when you know they are very wrong about other things?


It's typical for people to look at Bible prophecy only through the lens of what's going on during their lifetimes (we see people doing that still today), so I don't find this to be convincing. He also appears to have believed in an individual Antichrist even though there are many antichrist and not just one. I see no reason to trust that we should get our understanding of 2 Thess 2 from him.


Again, it's natural for people to think that the fulfillment of Bible prophecy relates to what is going on in their lifetimes. I'm just not convinced by this at all. Sorry. We can agree to disagree. I know you have a strong opinion about this, but so do I. And I could not care less about what some ancient guys from long ago who were not the authors of the Bible thought about this, knowing that many of them were very wrong about other things.


Did you forget that Paul said he had already talked to them about these things in person? He revealed the identity of the restrainer to them when he talked to them about it in person, so he felt no need to do it again in his letter. That's not very helpful to us now, but that was his reason for that.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.


No, the reason was that he had already told them the identity of the restrainer in person, so there was no need to repeat it in his letter.


So, apparently, it is your view that lawlessness has been unrestrained for a long time already?

Here is what Paul said would accompany the coming and revealing of the man of lawlessness...

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

So, it's your view that "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish" has been unrestrained for a long time already? If so, what is your understanding of Satan's little season? What do you think is the difference between how things are during the thousand years and how things are during Satan's little season?


Many of the Reformers taught false doctrine, as you know. I'm honestly baffled as to why you put so much trust in their teachings.

For some reason, you're ignoring history.

Why?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you think of the comments made in post #15 by @covenantee ?

Just responded to his comments made in that post, so you can read that. He and I have discussed 2 Thessalonians 2 before, but I'm not sure if he remembers that.

Could you please comment on whether pagan Rome could be the restrainer?

I don't believe so. It says in 2 Thess 2:7: "He who now restrains", so the restrainer is a "he" and not an "it".

What is being restrained?

I had previously said that I believe lawlessness is what Paul said was being restrained. I believe it makes sense that lawlessness would no longer be restrained during Satan's little season and that's why Satan is able to unite people from around the world in opposition to Jesus and His church during his little season.

What happens to pagan Rome in 476 AD? Who succeeded pagan Rome? Does any of this sound familiar?

I don't see any relevance between that and what Paul was writing about in 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

For some reason, you're ignoring history.

Why?

You know me better than this. I'm not going to play games like this. I'm ignoring nothing. Just address what I said instead of playing games.