Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?
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Spiritual Israelite
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LOL. I'm not ignoring anything, buddy. Should I accuse you of ignoring my arguments? I guess I should since that seems to be exactly what you're doing.
I ignore any arguments which ignore history.
So far, you're ignoring history.
Very well. But maybe you should challenge your opinion of the Holy Spirit against these same 7 markers and Timothy, Acts, and John and many others in Daniel. Good luck.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Then I'll ignore your argument that ignores the fact that every concept that is written about in Revelation 20 is also written about in other scripture, and that includes Satan's little season. But, you apparently think that Revelation 20 is the only place where that is written about. There's other scripture besides Revelation 20 that speaks of Christ's reign, Christ's people reigning with Him as priests, Satan's binding, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment, but somehow you think that the rest of scripture is silent about Satan's little season.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I have. You should consider whether any scripture besides Revelation 20 ever refers to Satan's little season. I believe it does just as other scriptures refer to other things referenced in Revelation 20 like Christ's reign, Satan's binding, Christ's people reigning with Him as priests, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment. It's ironic that you're asking me to address that challenge when you and @covenantee are not willing to address any challenges to your historical understanding of the passage.
If you get a chance to respond and show how the 7 markers support your opinion that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and the other 6 elements, I would certainly be interested. Thanks.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You ignored the man of sin.
A manifestation of Satan's little season.
2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,8-10
Why did you ignore it?
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Brakelite
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“1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV
It seems that the Thessalonians were deeply troubled, likely because they weren't ready to meet their Lord. The warnings about all the crisis that would accompany the second coming were and the fears associated with them were possibly well justified and there were letters purportedly written by fraudsters and false prophets claiming the second coming was imminent. Paul them continued to explain why such fears were unfounded...
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ”
2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV
While John was yet to write his letters mentioning the Antichrist, the early church was well acquainted with the prophecies of Daniel as recommended reading by Jesus Himself. They and their forefathers had witnessed the rise and fall of Babylon, Medo- Persia, and Greece, and Paul's personal testimony to them added weight to their expectations that Rome would soon follow suit. The little horn was the next power to come and rise out of the ashes of pagan Rome, but they were yet to witness not only the fall of Rome and thee rise of the ten horns to replace it, but as Paul added, there would be a falling away of the church as well, an apostasy, and this apostasy would manifest as the man of sin.
As John said a little later, there eye many antichrists who had risen within the church to entice disciples after them, thus the mystery of iniquity was already at work...within the church.
However, the full manifestation and development of the man of sin was being held back. His freedom to take power and rule to such an extent as was feared, persecution of the saints and waging war against truth and etc, was seriously restricted, clearly by a current power which Paul had previously named in person.
“Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? ”
2 Thessalonians 2:5 KJV
The removal of the fourth kingdom, the iron section of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, was prophetically and historically imperative to the development of the man of sin.
Operative word being identifiable. The entire purpose of prophecy. A Good of love revealing secrets to His sebaceous the prophets that His people may see and understand who their true enemy is... Satan's vehicle to destroy truth and God's church. What better place than to place this entity right in the middle of the church itself. Rather than attack the church openly from the outside, the genius attacks it secretly and deceptively from the inside. Prophecy from Genesis to revelation warns, gives signs, markers as you rightly describe, time frames, chronological historical time lines, and yet so few understand.
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV
So many clues and characteristics to work from.
“7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: ”
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
Clearly, while being described as the man of sin, it cannot be an individuais person that lives for 2000 years. It can only be an institution with one man at its head. Just as Christ is the Head of the church, so the man of sin, the Antichrist who replaces Christ, is the head of the apostasy.
We can trust them in this matter because first, they lived only a few years after Paul spoke to the Thessalonians in person. The Thessalonian Church would have still been there, and were able to testify to what Paul had spoken to them. And the ECF would have known. The whole church would have known. It was a tight community in this days, and they shared the truth between themselves and what differences they had over certain issues didn't affect this because in this they all agreed. Same with the reformers. They had differences of opinion on many things, except one. The identity of the man of sin. Today's church however is more deceived than the Thessalonians. And they refuse to see what is in front of their faces. It's right there in plain sight, with clues and markers and prophecies identifying the main characters in the narrative, and they still cannot see? Why? Paul explains a few verses later...
“9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 KJV
Very nice! The little horn would only come to full power once pagan Rome would see its demise in 476 AD (7:11). Thanks for your comments.“1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV
It seems that the Thessalonians were deeply troubled, likely because they weren't ready to meet their Lord. The warnings about all the crisis that would accompany the second coming were and the fears associated with them were possibly well justified and there were letters purportedly written by fraudsters and false prophets claiming the second coming was imminent. Paul them continued to explain why such fears were unfounded...
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ”
2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV
While John was yet to write his letters mentioning the Antichrist, the early church was well acquainted with the prophecies of Daniel as recommended reading by Jesus Himself. They and their forefathers had witnessed the rise and fall of Babylon, Medo- Persia, and Greece, and Paul's personal testimony to them added weight to their expectations that Rome would soon follow suit. The little horn was the next power to come and rise out of the ashes of pagan Rome, but they were yet to witness not only the fall of Rome and thee rise of the ten horns to replace it, but as Paul added, there would be a falling away of the church as well, an apostasy, and this apostasy would manifest as the man of sin.
As John said a little later, there eye many antichrists who had risen within the church to entice disciples after them, thus the mystery of iniquity was already at work...within the church.
However, the full manifestation and development of the man of sin was being held back. His freedom to take power and rule to such an extent as was feared, persecution of the saints and waging war against truth and etc, was seriously restricted, clearly by a current power which Paul had previously named in person.
“Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? ”
2 Thessalonians 2:5 KJV
The removal of the fourth kingdom, the iron section of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, was prophetically and historically imperative to the development of the man of sin.
Operative word being identifiable. The entire purpose of prophecy. A Good of love revealing secrets to His sebaceous the prophets that His people may see and understand who their true enemy is... Satan's vehicle to destroy truth and God's church. What better place than to place this entity right in the middle of the church itself. Rather than attack the church openly from the outside, the genius attacks it secretly and deceptively from the inside. Prophecy from Genesis to revelation warns, gives signs, markers as you rightly describe, time frames, chronological historical time lines, and yet so few understand.
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV
So many clues and characteristics to work from.
“7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: ”
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
Clearly, while being described as the man of sin, it cannot be an individuais person that lives for 2000 years. It can only be an institution with one man at its head. Just as Christ is the Head of the church, so the man of sin, the Antichrist who replaces Christ, is the head of the apostasy.
We can trust them in this matter because first, they lived only a few years after Paul spoke to the Thessalonians in person. The Thessalonian Church would have still been there, and were able to testify to what Paul had spoken to them. And the ECF would have known. The whole church would have known. It was a tight community in this days, and they shared the truth between themselves and what differences they had over certain issues didn't affect this because in this they all agreed. Same with the reformers. They had differences of opinion on many things, except one. The identity of the man of sin. Today's church however is more deceived than the Thessalonians. And they refuse to see what is in front of their faces. It's right there in plain sight, with clues and markers and prophecies identifying the main characters in the narrative, and they still cannot see? Why? Paul explains a few verses later...
“9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 KJV
With all of that in mind, and I realize this is beyond the topic here, but have you identified the earth beast in Revelation? Thanks.“1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV
It seems that the Thessalonians were deeply troubled, likely because they weren't ready to meet their Lord. The warnings about all the crisis that would accompany the second coming were and the fears associated with them were possibly well justified and there were letters purportedly written by fraudsters and false prophets claiming the second coming was imminent. Paul them continued to explain why such fears were unfounded...
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ”
2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV
While John was yet to write his letters mentioning the Antichrist, the early church was well acquainted with the prophecies of Daniel as recommended reading by Jesus Himself. They and their forefathers had witnessed the rise and fall of Babylon, Medo- Persia, and Greece, and Paul's personal testimony to them added weight to their expectations that Rome would soon follow suit. The little horn was the next power to come and rise out of the ashes of pagan Rome, but they were yet to witness not only the fall of Rome and thee rise of the ten horns to replace it, but as Paul added, there would be a falling away of the church as well, an apostasy, and this apostasy would manifest as the man of sin.
As John said a little later, there eye many antichrists who had risen within the church to entice disciples after them, thus the mystery of iniquity was already at work...within the church.
However, the full manifestation and development of the man of sin was being held back. His freedom to take power and rule to such an extent as was feared, persecution of the saints and waging war against truth and etc, was seriously restricted, clearly by a current power which Paul had previously named in person.
“Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? ”
2 Thessalonians 2:5 KJV
The removal of the fourth kingdom, the iron section of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, was prophetically and historically imperative to the development of the man of sin.
Operative word being identifiable. The entire purpose of prophecy. A Good of love revealing secrets to His sebaceous the prophets that His people may see and understand who their true enemy is... Satan's vehicle to destroy truth and God's church. What better place than to place this entity right in the middle of the church itself. Rather than attack the church openly from the outside, the genius attacks it secretly and deceptively from the inside. Prophecy from Genesis to revelation warns, gives signs, markers as you rightly describe, time frames, chronological historical time lines, and yet so few understand.
“Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV
So many clues and characteristics to work from.
“7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: ”
2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
Clearly, while being described as the man of sin, it cannot be an individuais person that lives for 2000 years. It can only be an institution with one man at its head. Just as Christ is the Head of the church, so the man of sin, the Antichrist who replaces Christ, is the head of the apostasy.
We can trust them in this matter because first, they lived only a few years after Paul spoke to the Thessalonians in person. The Thessalonian Church would have still been there, and were able to testify to what Paul had spoken to them. And the ECF would have known. The whole church would have known. It was a tight community in this days, and they shared the truth between themselves and what differences they had over certain issues didn't affect this because in this they all agreed. Same with the reformers. They had differences of opinion on many things, except one. The identity of the man of sin. Today's church however is more deceived than the Thessalonians. And they refuse to see what is in front of their faces. It's right there in plain sight, with clues and markers and prophecies identifying the main characters in the narrative, and they still cannot see? Why? Paul explains a few verses later...
“9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 KJV
Which brings up this point when observing Preterists insisting Nero was the beast. Ok, if that is so, according to Revelation 13, you can't have a beast that rises out of the sea without having a beast that rises out of the earth working hand in hand with it. therefore, if the beast was Nero, who then was the false prophet? What was his name? After all, if the beast can be named then so can the earth beast. So who was it then? What was his name?
Except they don't ever seem to have an answer for that. They can't even produce who Nero's alleged sidekick, so to speak, was at the time. These are a team, so to speak, like Batman & Robin were a team. IOW, if anyone knew of Robin they certainly knew of Batman. And if anyone knew of Batman, they certainly knew of Robin. therefore, if anyone knew of Nero they would certainly know of his alleged partner in crime, if Nero is the beast.
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Why do you say that Nero is the sea beast? What is your understanding of who the sea beast and the earth beast is? Does your interpretation of the lawless one in 2 Thessalonians 2 fit well with the 7 markers? Would you mind offering your understanding of this chapter? Thanks.
You must have misunderstood me somewhere. I'm not saying Nero is the sea beast. I'm saying there are Preterists that I have observed in the past that insist Nero is the sea beast. My point is that some Preterists insist Nero is the sea beast. Assuming they’re correct, though, it raises a question: if the sea beast has a clear identity, why can’t they equally identify the earth beast? You can’t have one without the other---they’re presented as a paired system in Revelation 13.
Think of it like Batman & Robin. Everyone knows Batman---but nobody talks about him without mentioning Robin, his partner. If Nero is truly the sea beast, then by that same logic, his 'partner in crime',the earth beast, should be just as identifiable. Otherwise, it feels like we’re only seeing half the picture. And that it comes across as absurd that the sea beast can be named but the earth beast can't be named. That would be like, Batman can be named, but his partner can't be named. It's real simple then, no one has named the sea beast unless they have also named the earth beast. But even then, they could still be incorrect. But no way could they be correct, period, if they can only name the sea beast but can't name the earth beast as well. Naming only one is like showing half a puzzle and insisting it’s complete
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Brakelite
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The sea beast, whose history could be described as a religious tyranny, in conjunction with whatever local government was willing, or coerced, into enforcing the religious doctrines of the beast, came to an abrupt end in1798.
It was at this same time that the land beast was rising up. A beast with the appearance of a lamb, giving the world the impression of a peace loving gentle nation having no predatory instincts such as all the beasts thathave comprised the sea beast, but would, through its verbal expressions in legislation and practise, speak like a dragon... Satan. This beast will one day have the global power and influence to turn the whole world back to hair the first beast, despite its history of despotism and persecution. The only nation that was rising at the beginning of the 19th century and which today had such global influence is the United States.
The Light
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