The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Spiritual Israelite]

Like most here, spiritually I see only Two entities of the Godhead, unless of course you might be adding in the words of Jesus too, to make three.

What are you talking about? There is one God in three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus references the Holy Spirit a few verses after the verse I posted. Do you disagree?

 

[Earburner]

Was that post addresed to you? Absolutely not. I simply sibmitted what I said and how one Amil in particular responded to it, which wasn't you, to an an Ai and that is what the AI concluded from the exchange. The Amil meant by the AI is meaning the Amil that was addressing my post, and not you instead nor any other Amil for that matter. You are not the one setting these rules, this other Amil is. So relax then, this has nothing to do with you. Even though I don't agree with your interpretation of Zechariah 14, at least you are still trying to be fair about these things by reasoning through them. The OP OTOH is setting rules, that unless you abide by these rules first, your interpretation is not valid to begin with.

Lol!! Sounds "logical" to my human mind. Fortunately, I don't discern or interpret scripture through the mind of my natural man....or AI.

As with Paul the Apostle, I understand that I also "have the Mind of Christ", and therefore I have learned to present my body (brain/mind included) as a living sacrifice, holy acceptable unto God" for His use.

Again.....study all of 1 Cor. ch. 2.

 

[Earburner]

What are you talking about? There is one God in three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus references the Holy Spirit a few verses after the verse I posted. Do you disagree?

No not at all. Like you, I also know Who the Holy Spirit is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Was that post addresed to you? Absolutely not.

It addressed Amillennialism in general and I am an Amillennialist. You misrepresented Amillennialism with your post. What don't you understand about that?

I simply sibmitted what I said and how one Amil in particular responded to it, which wasn't you, to an an Ai and that is what the AI concluded from the exchange.

And you posted it as if you agreed with it. If you don't agree with it, then don't post it as if you do.

The Amil meant by the AI is meaning the Amil that was addressing my post, and not you instead nor any other Amil for that matter.

That is not what was indicated in YOUR post. This is what was said:

Premils (or other literalists) often rely on:
Chronology of events (literal sequencing)
Historical-cultural context
Grammatico-historical exegesis

By contrast, Amil emphasizes:

Spiritual discernment over literal reasoning

This did not say it was talking only about one particular Amil. It was contrasting Premils with Amils in general. How can you deny that?

You are not the one setting these rules, this other Amil is. So relax then, this has nothing to do with you.

Then make that clear in your post. Don't post things that refers to Amils in general if you're only talking about one particular Amil.

Even though I don't agree with your interpretation of Zechariah 14, at least you are still trying to be fair about these things by reasoning through them. The OP OTOH is setting rules, that unless you abide by these rules first, your interpretation is not valid to begin with.

I feel like you do that sometimes as well, so it seems like an ironic thing for you to complain about. But, I agree that it's not a reasonable thing to do.

 

[PeterAndroz]

It hasn't happened yet. It will happen when Jesus Christ comes again from heaven, at which time the dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are alive and remain until His second coming are caught up together with the resurrected dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17).

+++ Agreed, yet to happen
+++ First the dead rise then the alive to be with them with Christ in the air.
16... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17..Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
+++ 2nd coming is a later event after 1 Thess 4:17

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

+++ Agreed, yet to happen
+++ First the dead rise then the alive to be with them with Christ in the air.
16... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17..Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
+++ 2nd coming is a later event after 1 Thess 4:17

No, the second coming of Christ is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

 

[PeterAndroz]

No, the second coming of Christ is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

1 Thess 4:17 is easy to understand :)
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:



Next is a future event

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem,

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Jesus is the speaker in verse 12. Therefore, when He says---and I will write upon him the name of my God--by 'my God' He is obviously meaning the Father. Therefore, the face seen in verse 4 is obviously meaning the face of the Father. Granted, this is future still. But even so, it pretty much debunks your reasoning if you think that the Father can never be seen with the naked eye ever at any time. BTW, I don't have any disputes with your post unless you do perhaps think God the Father can never be seen by humans ever.

As the scripture states, no man has seen God The Father

1 John:18KJV
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thess 4:17 is easy to understand :)

I agree.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:


View attachment 84271
Next is a future event

Nope. You said before that the second coming comes later after what is described above. No. Can you not see the explicit mention of "the coming of the Lord" in that passage? There is no indication whatsoever that Paul changed the topic at this point. Unfortunately, the inappropriate placement of a chapter break here may have caused you to believe this. 1 Thessalonians 5 is a continuation of the topic Paul introduced at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4, which is the second coming of Christ. First, Paul talked about what will happen to believers on the day Jesus comes and then He talked about what will happen to unbelievers.

Do you believe the following verse will occur when what is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

I believe that the day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" will be the day that we are caught up to meet Him in the air and are then with Him forever, don't you?

 

[PeterAndroz]

I agree.


Nope. You said before that the second coming comes later after what is described above. No. Can you not see the explicit mention of "the coming of the Lord" in that passage? There is no indication whatsoever that Paul changed the topic at this point. Unfortunately, the inappropriate placement of a chapter break here may have caused you to believe this. 1 Thessalonians 5 is a continuation of the topic Paul introduced at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4, which is the second coming of Christ. First, Paul talked about what will happen to believers on the day Jesus comes and then He talked about what will happen to unbelievers.

Then we which are alive and remain shall >>LATER<<< be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Does the word LATER appear in 1 Thess 4:17 ? No :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see 1 Thess 4:14-18 as the one event, the dead and alive

I edited my post, but it looks like you responded before I did. So, I'll just repeat here what I added to my post.

Do you believe the following verse will occur when what is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

I believe that the day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" will be the day that we are caught up to meet Him in the air and are then with Him forever, don't you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

+++ Agreed, yet to happen
+++ First the dead rise then the alive to be with them with Christ in the air.
16... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17..Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
+++ 2nd coming is a later event after 1 Thess 4:17

@Earburner I see that you liked the post above. This person is pre-trib and is claiming that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is a different event from 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. I know you're not pre-trib, so I'm wondering if you misunderstood what he's saying here?

 

[Earburner]

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem,

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Jesus is the speaker in verse 12. Therefore, when He says---and I will write upon him the name of my God--by 'my God' He is obviously meaning the Father. Therefore, the face seen in verse 4 is obviously meaning the face of the Father. Granted, this is future still. But even so, it pretty much debunks your reasoning if you think that the Father can never be seen with the naked eye ever at any time. BTW, I don't have any disputes with your post unless you do perhaps think God the Father can never be seen by humans ever.

As for God the Father, do you still not understand WHY God the Father needed to dwell within Jesus FIRST, in order for Him to dwell within us also??
Surely you do know that without Jesus, God the Father, who is Holy Spirit only, cannot dwell within us, all by Himself.

 

[PeterAndroz]

@Earburner I see that you liked the post above. This person is pre-trib and is claiming that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is a different event from 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. I know you're not pre-trib, so I'm wondering if you misunderstood what he's saying here?

I believe that 1 Thess 4:14-18 is a single event, you don't.

 

[Truth7t7]

God The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all dwell within believers in a spiritual sense.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 14:17KJV
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26KJV
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Romans 8:9KJV
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11KJV
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 6:13KJV
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Timothy 1:14KJV
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

1 John 4:13KJV
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[Earburner]

@Earburner I see that you liked the post above. This person is pre-trib and is claiming that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is a different event from 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. I know you're not pre-trib, so I'm wondering if you misunderstood what he's saying here?

Yes, after a re-read, I see that he believes the 2nd coming of Christ comes after the resurrection of all saints.(the so called secret rapture?)
Yes, I disagree with his stand.
I removed the "like"
Thanks!

 

[PeterAndroz]

Yes, after a re-read, I see that he believes the 2nd coming of Christ comes after the resurrection of all saints.(the so called secret rapture?)
Yes, I disagree with his stand.
I removed the "like"
Thanks!

I'm heartbroken EB :)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe that 1 Thess 4:14-18 is a single event, you don't.

What is your basis for believing that?

Do you believe the following verse will occur when what is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

I believe that the day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" will be the day that we are caught up to meet Him in the air and are then with Him forever, don't you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, after a re-read, I see that he believes the 2nd coming of Christ comes after the resurrection of all saints.(the so called secret rapture?)
Yes, I disagree with his stand.
I removed the "like"
Thanks!

No problem. Just wanted to see if maybe I was missing something about what you believed. I knew you weren't pre-trib, but I wondered if you still somehow saw 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 as different events.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

John 14:17KJV
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26KJV
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Romans 8:9KJV
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11KJV
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 6:13KJV
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Timothy 1:14KJV
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

1 John 4:13KJV
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

What point are you intending to make by posting these verses as it relates to what I said?