I didn't comment on that part as I was pointing out what took place in the first century to prove my view
although the Lord did come with his saints to the Holy City in the first century in Matthew 27:51-53
How do you see verse Zechariah 14:1-2?
The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14
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I didn't comment on that part as I was pointing out what took place in the first century to prove my view
although the Lord did come with his saints to the Holy City in the first century in Matthew 27:51-53
How do you see verse Zechariah 14:1-2?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That's not an excuse for changing the text of scripture. You presented the verse as if that is how it is written in scripture. You quoted the other two verses as they are written in scripture, but not Zechariah 14:9. This kind of dishonesty is unacceptable.
I edited it but I bet you still have issues with something. And so what if I bring my doctrine into it? You don't bring your doctrine into it when you are discussing these same verses? Yeah, right. Unlike you, what I'm arguing in that post proves the millennium is post the 2nd coming. But you would rather contradict Zechariah 14:9 by having it true while 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is still true. So why is that? Obviously, so that your doctrine of the millennium precedes the 2nd coming can supposedly survive. Let's just contradict the text, who cares..
But let me ask you this. When Revelation 11:15 is meaning, is 2 Thessalonians 2:4 still in progress and ongoing like some Premil dispies tend to think? Some of these Premil dispies think 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is just beginning when the 7th trumpet sounds. There you go then. If the 7th trumpet does not lead to the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:9, then I give up. I shouldn't even be reading the Bible, period, if I can't even get something as plainly obvious as that correct.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
No, they are not.
Those are the "dead" of Ezekiel 44, meaning spiritually dead still subject to the "second death" at the end of Christ's 1,000 years reign. Ezekiel 44 says for sake of a relative Christ's elect may go to them outside the gates of the city, but then must go through a purification when they come back to the sanctuary.
Ezek 44:25-26
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
KJV
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You can't make it as if you are quoting scripture and then change what the scripture actually says. How can you not understand that? If you're going to indicate how you understand the verse rather than actually quoting the text of the verse, then make that clear.
That's not even my point! Are you kidding me here? How can you not know what my point is here? I don't care if you try to see if the verse can work with your Premil doctrine. Just don't change the text when you are quoting the text of the verse. For the other two verses you quoted what the verses actually say, but then you did not do that for Zechariah 14:9. That's misleading if you don't make it clear that's what you're doing. Not everyone knows exactly what the text in that verse says.
Don't talk like a an immature child. Don't tell me that I would rather make scripture contradict itself than reconcile the scriptures together. That's a lie. No, I would rather never make any two verses or passages contradict each other because I have more respect and reverence for scripture than that. Could I mistakenly misinterpret one or both verses? Of course. But, would I rather do that than not do that as your falsely claim? No, of course not. Just because I disagree with your interpretation of a verse doesn't mean I would rather make it contradict another verse than accept what it is saying. That's ridiculous.
Grow up already. You act like a little child on here while making false accusations left and right. You are accusing me of purposely contradicting these scriptures. That is an attack on my character and I won't put up with it.
If that was the case then it would have to be the case that Zechariah 14:9 relates to the eternal new heavens and new earth where there will be no more death and not to a millennial kingdom where death is still occurring. And why would you not consider the possibility that Zechariah 14:9 relates to the fact that Jesus was given all power and authority in heaven AND on earth after His resurrection (Matthew 28:18)?
How can something that you think supports the false doctrine of Premillennialism be plainly correct? Your doctrine is entirely based on some of the most difficult passages in all of scripture to interpret, whether you admit that or not. Amillennialism, in contrast, is based on clear, straightforward scriptures rather than on highly debatable, difficult to interpret scriptures contained in highly symbolic books.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Obviously, you must have a problem reading simple English, because that's what I wrote. But maybe you need a summary of that Scripture so you won't be able to MOCK just because you refuse to believe it...
Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV
"Blessed are they that do His commandments" = Christ's elect
"... that they may have right to the tree of life," = only for Christ's elect starting at His return.
"...and may enter in through the gates into the city." = for God's elect only allowed to enter into the Millennial Sanctuary per Ezekiel 44.
"For without are ..." = outside the gates of the beloved city, a place of separation Lord Jesus referred to as the "outer darkness". Not the "lake of fire", because the "lake of fire" is a final event only to happen after Christ's 1,000 years reign per the end of Rev.20. These are the unsaved that go through Christ's Millennial reign with His elect, upon whom which the "rod of iron" given Him will be.
"... dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." = the wicked unsaved.
Just because the above is written in the Revelation 22 Chapter does NOT mean it is sequential. The events written in God's Old Testament prophets does not always flow in sequence; neither do they always do it in Christ's Book of Revelation. The above is actually Revelation 20 timing, Christ's "thousand years" reign.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, they are. I guess Revelation 20:15 and Revelation 21:8 are not in your Bible then because those verses refer to the same thing as Revelation 22:15.
LOL. That passage is not talking about spiritually dead people. Come on. That is referring to physically dead people. It's describing the ceremonial duties that priests had when presiding over funerals for the dead.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You are allowing men's false doctrine of Amillennialism to confuse you.
The Revelation 22:14-15 Scripture is Revelation 20 "thousand years" timing. Just as with the Old Testament prophets, not everything written happens in sequence. And didn't you claim the wicked are in the "lake of fire" per that Rev.22 Scripture? For you to believe that it means you MISSED what Jesus showed about the place of separation that begins at His return where the wicked are cast to, i.e., the "outer darkness". You wrongly claim that is the "lake of fire", which it is not. It is a place of separation. How else are those of Zech.14 that will go up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world be able to go up to Jerusalem from year to year, and worship The KING (Jesus), and keep the Feast of Tabernacles?
Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Premillennialism is "men's false doctrine" because it contradicts a great deal of clear, straightforward scriptures. The way you butcher straightforward text like 2 Peter 3:10-12 is evidence of that.
Nope. That's complete nonsense. All of Revelation 21 and 22 relates to the eternal new heavens and new earth and the eternal lake of fire. It has nothing to do with the thousand years. It's funny to me how you can decide that Revelation 22:14-15 does not occur chronologically after what is described in Revelation 20:1-6, but you refuse to even consider that what is described in Revelation 20 does not occur chronologically after what is described in Revelation 19. At least you recognize that some of the book is not in chronological order, but that's a small consolation for not recognizing the chronological order of Revelation 20-22 properly.
Both "outer darkness" and the "lake of fire" are symbolic ways of referring to the final destination of the wicked. Being cast into outer darkness and being cast into the lake of fire, which can also be referred to as a furnace of fire or "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", as Jesus did, result in weeping and gnashing of teeth. They are referring to the same thing.
Matthew 8:12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
I believe it's ludicrous to deny that all of these verses are speaking of the same event. Unbelievers whose names are not written in the book of life are not going to be cast to where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth on more than one occasion.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Obviously, not all Premils agree about everything just as not all Amils agree about everything, so it's understandable that you would not necessarily get along with all Premils. I'm not sure that anyone here gets along with that guy. He's always insulting everyone. Anyway, what you can do is put your arrow over his name and then some options will come up on the bottom of the pop up window and you'll see that "Ignore" is one of the options. You can just click on that and he'll then be on your ignore list.
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I see what the issue is then. Per this browser I'm using, I don't have Scripting turned on. That's why I'm not seeing these options. I can solve that by turning Scripting on. Thanks. As to @Davy it doesn't have to do with disagreements about Scripture so much. It has more to do with the manner he responds to someone, like he did with me via post #207. He accuses me of mocking his view. But how could I be mocking his view if I didn't even comprehend what is view is to begin with? Which apparently is my fault, poor reading comprehension on my part.
Which makes me appreciate you even more compared to having exchanges with him. Though, I do admit, your excessive LOLs annoy me sometimes. But maybe I'm just reading too much into that?
Accomplished, after turning Scripting on. The only option I don't like is that unignore option. Maybe in his case I should ignore that option from now on. It's not like things are ever going to get better with that dude.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know that. I have come close to putting him on ignore for the same reason before.
Right. You were not mocking his view at all. That's just a baseless, false accusation. As I'm sure you're aware, I don't take kindly to that, either.
I know they do and I should cut down on that. I do that when I think someone has said something so ridiculous that it can't possibly be true. But, I understand that can be annoying. I have actually cut down on that some, but I should cut down on it more.
No, I can understand you being annoyed by that and I should respect that and stop doing that as much. Probably not at all, but that could take time for me to get to that point.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Haha. Yeah, I don't think there's any way to remove the unignore option, unfortunately. Maybe they should add an "Ignore Permanently" option.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Too much superstition in your chosen belief system, which is why it does not align with Bible Scripture.
The "lake of fire" at the end of Rev.20 is NOT... the "outer darkness" Jesus referred to. The "outer darkness" is simply the abode of the wicked called Hades. You should have easily understood this if you had actually read... the following Scripture...
Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV
Try looking up the Greek for that word "hell" above.
And just who... will still be subject to that "second death" according to that Revelation 20 Chapter? The unsaved which go through Christ's future "thousand years" reign as written in that Chapter.
Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
KJV
Davy
Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 44 about those "dead" are about the unsaved without Christ, and are still subject to the later "second death". The timing of that Chapter is for after... Jesus has returned. And what is to happen on that day of His future return according to Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 on the "last trump"? ALL... alive on earth (including the wicked), will suddenly be changed to their spirit bodies at the twinkling of an eye. That means no more flesh age when Jesus returns. And for the wicked that have died, they will be raised to the "resurrection of damnation" because it is a resurrection to the spirit body also, but involves still being subject to the later "second death".
Don't you guys read your Bible? This is all simply written, I'm not making it up.
Davy
Well-Known Member
What you said when I posted the simple Revelation Scripture reveals a Mocking by you, because IF... you had read that Scripture as written, then you would not have said the below...
Davidpt said:
"You are all over the place here. How is one to make any sense of some of this? You seem to be arguing for and against the NHNE at the same time, in relation to the millennium. I can't make sense out of what your position is."
No, I was not all over the place, which starts off with your silly mocking. I quoted two Bible Scriptures, the Rev.22:14-15 Scripture about the existence of the wicked while the Tree of Life manifests again inside the gates of the beloved city on earth (Jerusalem). Then I referenced Rev.21:21-22 how in the new heavens and new earth time there will be no more temple, which in contrast with Ezekiel 40 thru 47 ("thousand years" timing), there will be a Millennial "sanctuary" at Jerusalem on earth, as written.
To grasp that above of course means you would have had to do your homework in the Book of Ezekiel in relation with Revelation, which apparently you have not done, for the Scriptures are simple to understand as written.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You completely ignored my argument, as you always do. You are afraid to directly address any challenges to your false Premillennial doctrine. The place where people eventually end up is the place where scripture says there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth". That is described by Jesus as both "outer darkness" and as "the furnace of fire". There's no basis whatsoever to think He was not referring to same thing as the lake of fire with those references. In Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus indicated that unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" when He comes again with His angels. Do you claim that the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" is not the lake of fire?
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