Who is Paul discussing in 2 Thessalonians 2?

[David in NJ]

I’m not sure what you are talking about out.

The adverb “as if” modifies the source of deception - letter, spirit, spoken word.

It does not modify the day of the Lord.

“Don’t be deceived by a spirit, spoken word, or letter “as if from us”, alleging that the day of the Lord has already occurred.”

Question: Did you not say in your post that the DotL "had already come"???

 

[grafted branch]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul gives us enough markers for identifying the term, "lawlessness," the "timing"of when this "lawlessness begins and ends," and the ability to identify the man of lawlessness. If one can identify each of his marker's in Scripture and history, then the field of possible candidates becomes very narrow. Further, if one were to bring in the Book of Daniel, we will find we will find Daniel and Paul are identifying the same indiividual and time in history.

A. The chronological sequence Paul gives - (These are the time-order elements):​

1. The Thessalonians are being deceived about the day of the Lord
   Paul begins with: “Let no one deceive you.” The whole issue is whether Christ’s return had already come or was immediately present.
2. The falling away must come first
   Before the day of the Lord, there must be an apostasy — a departure from truth within the professed people of God.
3. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work
   The principle is already operating in Paul’s day, but not yet fully visible.
4. Something is restraining it
   The lawlessness is active, but prevented from reaching its full revealed form.
5. The restraint must be removed
   Paul says the restrainer continues “until he is taken out of the way.”
6. Then the lawless one is revealed
   The hidden principle becomes an identifiable power.
7. This power continues until Christ destroys it at His coming
   That means it cannot be merely a first-century figure who came and went. It continues until the final return of Christ.

So, before we go on to discuss the characteristics of the "man of lawlessness," can we use the above 7 markers to begin to discover this fellow?

B. The identifying characteristics of the power - (These describe what this lawless power is like):​

1. Self-exaltation
   He “exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped.”
2. Religious usurpation
   He “sits in the temple of God,” meaning he takes a position inside the sphere of God’s worship and people.
3. Claim of divine authority
   He “shows himself that he is God,” meaning he claims authority that belongs only to God.
4. Counterfeit spiritual power
   His coming is “according to the working of Satan,” with signs, lying wonders, and deception.
5. Opposition to truth
   People are deceived because they do not receive the love of the truth.

Let me throw this idea out there …

The lawless one could be viewed as one that has no covenant. The man <444> of sin relates to both genders, male and female. Jerusalem is described as a woman in the Bible in various forms, one being a harlot. It could be looked at as Jerusalem had no covenant after the cross, it was lawless although it continued with many thousands of Jews who both believed and were zealous for the Law (Acts 21:20).

The thing that is restraining appears to be associated with delay, in Revelation 6:10 they ask how long O Lord and in Revelation 10:6 there should be time (delay) no longer. I think this corresponds to times of the Gentiles, when the fullness or fulfillment of the Gentiles comes in the delay is over, the restraint is removed and the Lawless one is revealed as Jerusalem which is destroyed by His coming.

So the restrainer could be Rome and when they surrounded Jerusalem with armies it was revealed and the believers fled.

 

[PinSeeker]

For some reason, you're ignoring history. Why?

SI turns every discussion into... a battle of epic proportion, Covenantee. <chuckles> You've been around enough to know this.

I don't believe that 2 Thessalonians 2 can be correctly understood without taking that foresight and history into account.

Well, I would agree in the sense that we need to ~ and we can if we look into it just a bit ~ know what the Thessalonians chief concerns were that Paul was speaking to, and hear from Paul what the Thessalonians heard and understand it the way they did. This is true of all Scripture, and I think we would all agree on that.

And stepping back just a bit, to @CTK in particular (but to all here, really), I think we should focus first on A4 and A5, in your original post, and try to come to some agreement on what is restraining what and what it is that must be removed... and how it will be removed.

And the Reformers recognized and understood both Paul and history.

They did, yes. But they're not the only ones, of course; many came before and many have come after. That group of men just came along ~ or I should say God raised them up and worked through them (although not in the same sense as the actual writers of the Bible, of course) at a crucial time in history. But you know, that's what He does... <smile>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

...the restrainer could be Rome...

That's one of the first interations of it, yes.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Question: Did you not say in your post that the DotL "had already come"???

I'll answer this: In one sense yes, but in another, not yet. This simultaneous now-and-not-yet can be applied to many different things... it is a rich theme of the New Testament. It's okay with me, of course, either way, but do you agree with this, David? Or not?

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks for your response. But I hope you would have offered your full interpretation on the following:

1) what is the “lawlessness” that is already taking place in the 1st century,

2) who is the “lawless one” that will be revealed,

3) when and why will this “lawless one” be revealed,

4) who is the “restrainer,” and why does he now no longer restrain the “lawless one,”

5) how do we confirm this in our history - or perhaps you might believe all of this is still in the future.

Thanks.

Thank you

i am a little busy but will respond

 

[David in NJ]

I'll answer this: In one sense yes, but in another, not yet. This simultaneous now-and-not-yet can be applied to many different things... it is a rich theme of the New Testament. It's okay with me, of course, either way, but do you agree with this, David? Or not?

Grace and peace to you, David.

YES

 

[Davy]

So you believe the Communist Jesuit Francisco Ribera.

I don't believe, nor do I respect Communists. I fought against them in the Vietnam War.

But you probably need to learn more about them, as Communist theory is actually very ancient and did not begin with that name, and was long, long, before any organization such as the Jesuits.

 

[claninja]

Question: Did you not say in your post that the DotL "had already come"???

Which part are you referring to?

 

[Davy]

Actually, it fits perfectly with Jesus' statements and illustrations.

Are you a person who thinks it is ok for religions of Christendom to join w/ the world (John 15:19; James 1:27) in its conflicts, killing enemies and brothers? (John 13:34,35; Matthew 5:44) That's being disobedient to Christ! (John 14:24; John 15:14) No matter how many try to justify warfare, it is 'working evil.' -- Matthew 7:23

If you got those ideas from a preacher at your Church, I'd recommend you leave that church that is posing as a Church, but is really pushing a Communist-Socialist platform.

The 2 Thess.2 "man of sin" (KJV) is about Satan himself. Satan committed the very first sin, even before Adam and Eve.

Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 is pointing to the SAME false one that Lord Jesus pointed to in Matthew 24:23-26 that is a pseudo-Christ (false Messiah; Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined that one as 'a spurious Messiah'). That means a FAKE JESUS that is to appear in JERUSALEM first, PRIOR to Lord Jesus Christ's return.

Apostle John was shown about that coming false Messiah also in Revelation 13:11 forward as the "another beast", which is about the idea of a beast king.

The false preachers you are listening to are either Biblically illiterate, or they are working for the "synagogue of Satan" as 'crept in unawares'...

Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

 

[David in NJ]

Which part are you referring to?

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

 

[claninja]

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

What’s your question about this verse?

 

[David in NJ]

What’s your question about this verse?

Forgive me if i read your post wrong - but- i thought you said: "the DotL had already come"

Do you believe that the DotL was in the past = 70AD ???

 

[covenantee]

I don't believe, nor do I respect Communists. I fought against them in the Vietnam War.

But you probably need to learn more about them, as Communist theory is actually very ancient and did not begin with that name, and was long, long, before any organization such as the Jesuits.

All Jesuits, including the Communist ones, believe Francisco Ribera.

You believe Francisco Ribera, thus sharing that belief with all Jesuits, including the Communist ones.

 

[claninja]

Forgive me if i read your post wrong - but- i thought you said: "the DotL had already come"

all is forgiven.

Do you believe that the DotL was in the past = 70AD ???

Jesus said this generation will not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS occur. “All these things” appear to include the son of man coming on the clouds and the gathering of the elect.

If Jesus said it, then I believe it.

 

[David in NJ]

all is forgiven.



Jesus said this generation will not pass away until ALL THESE THINGS occur. “All these things” appear to include the son of man coming on the clouds and the gathering of the elect.

If Jesus said it, then I believe it.

If Jesus said it, then I believe it.

AMEN - i am with you on this statement

JESUS also pointed to past generations being fulfilled in future a generation

Example:
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Together, you and i can believe all that JESUS has spoken to us.
And we can also believe the apostles who spoke by the Holy Spirit.

The more we study and pray, the more the Holy Spirit will reveal to us - Amen

 

[Behold]

In 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul gives us enough markers

1. Something is restraining it

Reader, if you are interested in learning about WHEN the "man of sin" is going to be revealed, then just Look at Israel.
We have now witnessed the main end time "sign" that has marked the time that the Trib is about to begin.
There was only one other major sign and that was.......that"Homosexuality" was going to become a world wide phenomenon, obsession, saturation.
And we have seen it for 30 yrs become "Gay Rights" "Gay Marriage" "Gay Priests" "Gay Adoption" "Gay Chrisitan Forums" "Gay Churches"... ect, ect, and on and on.
All the SIGNS are IN........they are already HERE... there is no more waiting for "signs".

So, as the Trib begins, so does the "man of sin" appear, as they are ONE Situation.


Now, What is keeping The AC from showing up inside your Cellphone screen right now?

1.) The Holy Spirit is still here, and that is the BLOCK............the main one, and when the Church is Raptured, so goes the Holy Spirit and that will be the end of the "restraint".
Imagine this world UNLEASHED with no RESTRAINT........ = that is the TRIB.
You dont want to be here.. then.

2.) This Devil, the Beast, has to have a reason to show up..........and that means He has to have a "Global Economic" meltdown to come and SOLVE for the world........and that has not happened yet, but, the world is on the "cusp"...it is "tottering on the brink" of total economic collapse, right now...
How close is it?
Well, the USA is bankrupt, according to their National Debt situation. See, it can't be paid off .....its too large...so, that means that the USA's Money is in the RED.......even as they keep Printing more money, and even as this world leans on the US-Dollar as its Universal currency.
So, understand and comprehend that the World's economy is built on the USA Dollar, and the USA Dollar is built on a bankrupt dollar. Therefore, that is literally how close this world is leaning into the abyss, regarding going over the edge into a Global Economic Meltdown, and that is when the BEAST is going to show up and take control.
Now, if you are here when that happens, then you missed the Rapture of the Church, which means that you are not really a born again Christian, currently.
And You dont want that........you dont want to go into the Trib, as that 2nd half of it, is going to be GOD's Wrath on this earth poured out on the unbelievers and the Bride of Christ are not appointed to this "wrath" day, and so, the Bride wont be here.
Make sure you are one of us, so that you wont have to endure the Grt Trib, as if you end up in it, then you have to do this..

"endure to the END"........of the Great Trib, Jesus teaches in Matt 24, and that "enduring" is going to be AWFUL, and you'll end up being martyr'd, or worse., if you want to not end up in Hell after you die during the GT.

 

[ewq1938]

That sucks man cause ... apparently Jesus lied to all those people and the apostles too.

Jesus never lied, in fact he never sinned a single time.

 

[MatthewG]

I get it — this really is the dilemma. In the end, every person has to make their own choice, and I’ve made mine.

I choose to trust what Jesus said He came to do, and what the apostles testified about. “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away” (Matthew 24:35). That’s where I anchor myself.

People will always have different opinions, and that’s okay. But if Jesus promised certain things, and the apostles confirmed those same things, then it’s only reasonable to stop and think critically about it. “Let God be true, and every man a liar” (Romans 3:4).

My whole purpose in taking this position is simple: I want people to think for themselves.

You can hold to long‑standing traditions, or you can take Jesus at His word about what He said would happen in that generation (Matthew 24:34). That’s a real choice.

You can make it a never‑ending cycle of repeating the same teachings with no real outcome… or you can step back and ask whether Jesus actually fulfilled what He said He would do.

There are all kinds of choices out there. I’ve simply chosen to say “no” to traditions that keep circling around without producing clarity, and “yes” to trusting the words of Christ and His apostles.

All the best to you as you seek truth.

Who were the people making rumors of Jesus and his coming had come to past and when was that historically if we have any evidence concerning it in that day in age of Paul writing to the Thessalonians in his second letter.​

​

Here’s the clearest, historically grounded answer based on what we can verify from early Christian sources and what Paul himself says in 2 Thessalonians.​

​

Short Answer​

The rumors in Paul’s day came from unknown teachers—likely traveling prophets, local speculators, or forged letters—claiming that “the day of the Lord” had already happened. Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians (around AD 50–52) to correct these false claims. We do not have names of the rumor‑spreaders, but we do have evidence that such rumors were circulating in the early church.​

What We Know From Scripture​

Paul directly says the Thessalonians were being shaken by:

• A spirit (someone claiming prophetic revelation)
• A spoken message
• A letter “as if from us” (a forged letter)

“…not to be quickly shaken… by a spirit or a message or a letter supposedly from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.” — 2 Thessalonians 2:2

This tells us:

1. Someone was actively spreading the rumor.
2. They were claiming apostolic authority (pretending to speak for Paul).
3. The church was disturbed enough that Paul had to intervene.

 

[CTK]

Reader, if you are interested in learning about WHEN the "man of sin" is going to be revealed, then just Look at Israel.
We have now witnessed the main end time "sign" that has marked the time that the Trib is about to begin.
There was only one other major sign and that was.......that"Homosexuality" was going to become a world wide phenomenon, obsession, saturation.
And we have seen it for 30 yrs become "Gay Rights" "Gay Marriage" "Gay Priests" "Gay Adoption" "Gay Chrisitan Forums" "Gay Churches"... ect, ect, and on and on.
All the SIGNS are IN........they are already HERE... there is no more waiting for "signs".

So, as the Trib begins, so does the "man of sin" appear, as they are ONE Situation.


Now, What is keeping The AC from showing up inside your Cellphone screen right now?

1.) The Holy Spirit is still here, and that is the BLOCK............the main one, and when the Church is Raptured, so goes the Holy Spirit and that will be the end of the "restraint".
Imagine this world UNLEASHED with no RESTRAINT........ = that is the TRIB.
You dont want to be here.. then.

2.) This Devil, the Beast, has to have a reason to show up..........and that means He has to have a "Global Economic" meltdown to come and SOLVE for the world........and that has not happened yet, but, the world is on the "cusp"...it is "tottering on the brink" of total economic collapse, right now...
How close is it?
Well, the USA is bankrupt, according to their National Debt situation. See, it can't be paid off .....its too large...so, that means that the USA's Money is in the RED.......even as they keep Printing more money, and even as this world leans on the US-Dollar as its Universal currency.
So, understand and comprehend that the World's economy is built on the USA Dollar, and the USA Dollar is built on a bankrupt dollar. Therefore, that is literally how close this world is leaning into the abyss, regarding going over the edge into a Global Economic Meltdown, and that is when the BEAST is going to show up and take control.
Now, if you are here when that happens, then you missed the Rapture of the Church, which means that you are not really a born again Christian, currently.
And You dont want that........you dont want to go into the Trib, as that 2nd half of it, is going to be GOD's Wrath on this earth poured out on the unbelievers and the Bride of Christ are not appointed to this "wrath" day, and so, the Bride wont be here.
Make sure you are one of us, so that you wont have to endure the Grt Trib, as if you end up in it, then you have to do this..

"endure to the END"........of the Great Trib, Jesus teaches in Matt 24, and that "enduring" is going to be AWFUL, and you'll end up being martyr'd, or worse., if you want to not end up in Hell after you die during the GT.

Okay, now, would you mind telling me who the man of sin is? Is this the same individual that is mentioned in Daniel 7,8 and 11? Is this the same individual mentioned as the "lawless one" in 2 Thessalonians 2? Is this the same one that is mentioned in Revelation - sea beast, whore of Babylon? If not, who are these other fellows?