The Kingdoms of the Dragon

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ewq1938

Mod
Staff member
Jul 11, 2015
8,494
1,698
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The 4th beast was the Seleucid empire. Well, I think so anyway


In Daniel 7 the 4th kingdom is destroyed by a coming of God and a throne judgement plus an eternal kingdom is set up AND the first 3 beasts continue on. Did all that happen already?
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
2,424
1,486
113
46
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In Daniel 7 the 4th kingdom is destroyed by a coming of God and a throne judgement plus an eternal kingdom is set up AND the first 3 beasts continue on. Did all that happen already?
More or less.

The throne judgment is part of a vision. The interpretation thereof is given to Daniel, but not us, and Daniel's response doesn't seem to that of a man receiving good news...

Daniel 7:28 Hitherto [is] the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

A kingdom was set up - the Hasmonean kingdom. It wasn't eternal, but it did endure to the end of the age. Babylon, Pasargadae, and Athens continued as seats of power.
 

ewq1938

Mod
Staff member
Jul 11, 2015
8,494
1,698
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
More or less.

Except none of it has happened. It's clearly set in the very end of the end times with God coming (the second coming most interpret it as).


The throne judgment is part of a vision. The interpretation thereof is given to Daniel, but not us, and Daniel's response doesn't seem to that of a man receiving good news...

Daniel 7:28 Hitherto [is] the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

A kingdom was set up - the Hasmonean kingdom. It wasn't eternal, but it did endure to the end of the age. Babylon, Pasargadae, and Athens continued as seats of power.


But no second coming, throne judgment or eternal kingdom. It's not a match to any part of human history.
 

Mosheli

Member
Jul 2, 2020
150
95
28
Wellington
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male

I started off today intending to write about one topic but in the midst of my studies God led me in a completely different direction. Has that ever happened to you?

No matter what viewpoint a student of prophecy starts with, we mostly all have one thing we believe in common and that is the identity of the beasts from Dan. 7. We should know based on Dan. 7: 17 that the lion-like beast was Medo-Persia, the bear-like beast was the Greece and the leopard-like beast was Rome and the fourth terrible beast with the 10 horns equates w/ the 5th still future kingdom of Dan. 2, the ten toes.

Historicists and many futurists believe they are made up of some of the remnants of the western part of the Roman Empire. Preterists have to believe the 4th kingdom is wrong, otherwise their whole, lack of eschatology crumbles to dust. I believe they’re looking in the wrong direction. The picture of the dragon from Rev. 13 tells us where to look for these nations to come from. Rev. 13:2 – “And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.”

It seems plain to me that we should look in the areas that these four kingdoms had in common which means we should concentrate on Rome’s eastern empire (aka the Byzantine Empire) and not the western. I’m sure my list is incomplete because my computer wasn’t forthcoming with a simple answer to my queries but I found at least eight modern countries that they all, at various times, controlled. They are Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and Turkey. There is one more that Greece, Medo-Persia and Rome shared and that is Libya. The Medo-Persians and Greeks had Afghanistan and Pakistan in common and Rome and Greece had Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Armenia and Romania in common. Individually they each held territories the others didn’t so I will list them as possibilities as well. They consist of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Georgia and Albania.

I believe at least the eight they all had in common may be part of the ten kingdoms controlled by the dragon and the other two is a toss-up amongst the remaining countries. Israel may be an exception but only time will tell.

Have you ever had a dream that sticks with you? You know it’s important and that God gave it to you but you don’t necessarily understand it fully. Well, that’s happened to me a couple of times lately. Let me share my last one. I was shown a map and on the map were seven mountains arranged in a semi-circle. (Rev. 17:9) The middle one was the largest and was called either Mt Olympus or Mt. Olympia.

I tried to find a similar arrangement on the computer but to no avail. In the election year 2016 we had two slogans, Hillary’s, “I’m with her” and Trump’s, “I’m with you”. There is a passage in Dan. 11:36-39 that I believe is talking about the a/c. “And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.”

In my ponderings, I have always thought that this “strange god” could be technology. However, because of my dream I’m leaning a different way. Continuing on with the dream, I was in a park with my family just watching the kids run and play and other families have a good time together. I was sitting on the ground next to a swing set and suddenly a little girl who was several feet away stood up and pointed at me and said, “I stand for the world” then many others, adults and children alike either stood up or turned to face me and then one at a time they all said the same thing, “I stand for the world” and the dream ended.

As I was considering what the dream might mean the word “globalism” came to mind. “Peace and safety with unity” is a concept that none of the a/c’s fathers had known. It was always power, conflict, control and conquest. The concept of globalism has only arisen in the age of the computer and internet and while we’ve heard the term bandied about a bit, it hasn’t become a “movement” but that might change in the near future and it might very well be that the a/c will come to fame within this cause. It seems to go with the flow of scripture but let me know what you think.


Re "the lion-like beast was Medo-Persia, the bear-like beast was the Greece and the leopard-like beast was Rome and the fourth terrible beast with the 10 horns equates w/ the 5th still future kingdom of Dan. 2, the ten toes". Those empires don't match those beasts in details. Rather the Lion, Bear & Leopard match Babylonian, Medo-Persians & Greek respectively. The lion lifted to stand like a human and given mind of a human matches Nebuchadnezzar. The bear with 3 ribs in mouth and raised on one side matches Medo-Persia with the 3 ribs being Babylon, Lydia & Egypt conquered by MP. The Leopard matches Greece becaus the 4 heads match the 4 main divisions it split up into after Alexander's death. The 4th beast would then seem to be Rome. (The 10 horns perhaps possibly might relate to Atlantis? The Atlanteans conquered Europe and Libya/Africa upto Tyrrhenia (Italy) and Egypt.)

Table of the kingdoms mentioned in Daniel:

Dan 7 - Dan 2 - Dan 8 - Dan 10-12 - Dan 9.
Lion = Gold head (Babylonian 2:38) = ... = ... = ....
... = 3 ribs ("Babylon, Lydia, Egypt") = ... = ... = ....
Bear = Silver chest & arms = 2 horned ram (Medo-Persian 8:20) = Prince of Persia = word to rebuild Jerusalem.
Leopard = Bronze belly & thighs = he-goat (Greco-Macedonian 8:21) = Prince of Greece = ....
4 heads = ... = 4 horns = 4 winds / King of North & King of South (Ptolemaic 11:8, Seleucid, etc) = ....
4th Beast/Dragon with iron teeth = Iron legs ("Roman") = ... = ... = time of trouble / people of the ruler who will come.
10 horns = Iron & Clay feet & 10 toes ("Germanics"?) = ... = ... = ....
little horn = ... = another horn? = king of the north? = ruler who will come.
Son of Man & holy people's kingdom = rock/mountain (Kingdom of God 2:44) = sanctuary reconsecrated? / destroyed not by human power = everlasting life / receive alloted inheritance = ....

Some of those matches/correspondences with Q-marks (?) or quote marks ("") might possibly be wrong. But some of the others are surely right as can see.

I'm not sure if/how the beast of Revelation 13 relates to the beasts of Daniel 7?

You might be right that "we should look in the areas that these four kingdoms had in common". Eg Daniel 8:9? Though Daniel 11:40-44 might suggest otherwise?
 
Last edited:

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,679
311
83
70
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The kingdoms that hade and has dominion over the Land of Babylon.

Babylon, Meds and Persians, Greece, Iraq and last the USA and the kings who joined in with them.

All this makes sense when you also reference Jeremiah 50 and 51.
I do agree that the US is the Babylon of Jer. 50 & 51 and Rev. 17 & 18.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,679
311
83
70
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Re "the lion-like beast was Medo-Persia, the bear-like beast was the Greece and the leopard-like beast was Rome and the fourth terrible beast with the 10 horns equates w/ the 5th still future kingdom of Dan. 2, the ten toes". Those empires don't match those beasts in details. Rather the Lion, Bear & Leopard match Babylonian, Medo-Persians & Greek respectively. The lion lifted to stand like a human and given mind of a human matches Nebuchadnezzar. The bear with 3 ribs in mouth and raised on one side matches Medo-Persia with the 3 ribs being Babylon, Lydia & Egypt conquered by MP. The Leopard matches Greece becaus the 4 heads match the 4 main divisions it split up into after Alexander's death. The 4th beast would then seem to be Rome. (The 10 horns perhaps possibly might relate to Atlantis? The Atlanteans conquered Europe and Libya/Africa upto Tyrrhenia (Italy) and Egypt.)

Table of the kingdoms mentioned in Daniel:

Dan 7 - Dan 2 - Dan 8 - Dan 10-12 - Dan 9.
Lion = Gold head (Babylonian 2:38) = ... = ... = ....
... = 3 ribs ("Babylon, Lydia, Egypt") = ... = ... = ....
Bear = Silver chest & arms = 2 horned ram (Medo-Persian 8:20) = Prince of Persia = word to rebuild Jerusalem.
Leopard = Bronze belly & thighs = he-goat (Greco-Macedonian 8:21) = Prince of Greece = ....
4 heads = ... = 4 horns = 4 winds / King of North & King of South (Ptolemaic 11:8, Seleucid, etc) = ....
4th Beast/Dragon with iron teeth = Iron legs ("Roman") = ... = ... = time of trouble / people of the ruler who will come.
10 horns = Iron & Clay feet & 10 toes ("Germanics"?) = ... = ... = ....
little horn = ... = another horn? = king of the north? = ruler who will come.
Son of Man & holy people's kingdom = rock/mountain (Kingdom of God 2:44) = sanctuary reconsecrated? / destroyed not by human power = everlasting life / receive alloted inheritance = ....

Some of those matches/correspondences with Q-marks (?) or quote marks ("") might possibly be wrong. But some of the others are surely right as can see.

I'm not sure if/how the beast of Revelation 13 relates to the beasts of Daniel 7?

You might be right that "we should look in the areas that these four kingdoms had in common". Eg Daniel 8:9? Though Daniel 11:40-44 might suggest otherwise?
I'm just going to focus on the first beast of Dan. 7, not being Babylon. The main focus of Daniel is Israel. Nebbie's time acting ox-like had zero influence upon Israel and if the description said the "head of an ox" one might have a point. Dan. 7:17 shows that the four beasts "shall" arise. At the time Daniel was writing about, Babylon was nearing it's end as a power so these four are what comes "after" Babylon. The Mede's king Cyrus fits the description of a "man's heart" as well. Ezra 6;22 says " the Lord... turned to heart of the king of Assyria (which is referencing Cyrus) towards Israel . He changed from a conquering enemy to someone who stood up for them by financing the complete building of the temple, Ezra 1.
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
2,424
1,486
113
46
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Except none of it has happened. It's clearly set in the very end of the end times with God coming (the second coming most interpret it as).
If there's no primary fulfillment, that would make Daniel a false prophet. He fails the test of Deuteronomy 18:

Deuteronomy 18:20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

I don't think that's the case, here. But that means the prophecy needs a first fulfillment - one that follows shortly after the prophecy was given.

The destruction of the Seleucid empire, the establishment of the Hasmonean dynasty, and the endurance of the other 3 powers... those match Daniel's specific predictions. Are there other parts of Daniel's prophecy that are hard to match up historically? Yes. But a lot of that is a vision, and we aren't given the specific interpretation of the vision.
 
Last edited:

ewq1938

Mod
Staff member
Jul 11, 2015
8,494
1,698
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
If there's no primary fulfillment, that would make Daniel a false prophet.


I'm just saying Daniel 7 has not been fulfilled in the past ie: your interpretation is wrong.


I don't think that's the case, here. But that means the prophecy needs a first fulfillment - one that follows shortly after the prophecy was given.

This is false. There is no such dual requirement.


The destruction of the Seleucid empire, the establishment of the Hasmonean dynasty, and the endurance of the other 3 powers... those match Daniel's specific predictions. Are there other parts of Daniel's prophecy that are hard to match up historically? Yes. But a lot of that is a vision, and we aren't given the specific interpretation of the vision.

Again, the first 3 kingdoms must out last the 4th, and the 4th has to be destroyed by a coming of God, throne judgment and an eternal kingdom. No part of human history matches this so no part of the prophecy is fulfilled.
 

Wick Stick

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2023
2,424
1,486
113
46
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no such dual requirement.
It's not a dual requirement. It's a single requirement. I already posted the verses that require it.
Again, the first 3 kingdoms must out last the 4th, and the 4th has to be destroyed by a coming of God, throne judgment and an eternal kingdom. No part of human history matches this so no part of the prophecy is fulfilled.
The first 3 kingdoms did outlast the 4th. The 4th was destroyed. It was destroyed by a foreign army - which it turns out is how God has historically accomplished the overthrow of kingdoms. It is not a stretch to attribute such an overthrow to God, Biblically.

And again, you're trying to require a literal fulfillment, where the text of Daniel clearly marks out something as a vision. I.e. it ought to have some interpretation.
 

ewq1938

Mod
Staff member
Jul 11, 2015
8,494
1,698
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The first 3 kingdoms did outlast the 4th. The 4th was destroyed. It was destroyed by a foreign army - which it turns out is how God has historically accomplished the overthrow of kingdoms.

The 4th in Dan 7 is destroyed at a coming of God at the very end of the age...eternal kingdom set up, throne judgment...basically the second coming. That did not yet happen.


It is not a stretch to attribute such an overthrow to God, Biblically.

Well, the text of Dan 7 does not match anything you have described.

And again, you're trying to require a literal fulfillment, where the text of Daniel clearly marks out something as a vision. I.e. it ought to have some interpretation.

Still does not match what is written there.