Reason for The Crusades explained

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Matthias

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You’re teaching others that it’s okay for followers of Jesus to kill followers of Jesus and you don’t think you could become Jesus’ enemies.

If someone can’t be persuaded that followers of Jesus killing followers of Jesus is wrong, then they should follow you. For those who can be, or are, persuaded that it is wrong for followers of Jesus to kill followers of Jesus, then they should follow Jesus and the apostles.

We're counseling violence IN obedience to Christ.

I’ve presented dozens of Christian witnesses - including one of your favorite Christian writers - who reject your counseling because it isn’t obedience to Christ.

Or do you suppose he meant for us to buy a sword to be a dust collector?

I haven’t seen anyone posting in this thread suppose that.
 
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NayborBear

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No.

We're counseling violence IN obedience to Christ. Or do you suppose he meant for us to buy a sword to be a dust collector?
Wrangler?
It is quite hard, not to mention frustrating to "connect dots" to those who choose to believe there are "NO MORE dots TO connect!"
For "THIS Slice of ETERNITY" is ALL the "picture" they are ABLE to comprehend!
There WAS no
(how can I say) "SLICES" PRIOR TO THIS CURRENT "SLICE!"
They cannot fathom the "Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World" Was MANDATED from a PREVIOUS "SLICE OF ETERNITY!"
It SIMPLY didn't exist to them!
Although there ARE "dots to connect" in the Bible that say otherwise?
They can't? Or Worse? WON'T see them! NOR "connect" them!
Sad! But? GOD has HIS reasons!
 

Matthias

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Wrangler?
It is quite hard, not to mention frustrating to "connect dots" to those who choose to believe there are "NO MORE dots TO connect!"
For "THIS Slice of ETERNITY" is ALL the "picture" they are ABLE to comprehend!
There WAS no
(how can I say) "SLICES" PRIOR TO THIS CURRENT "SLICE!"
They cannot fathom the "Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World" Was MANDATED from a PREVIOUS "SLICE OF ETERNITY!"
It SIMPLY didn't exist to them!
Although there ARE "dots to connect" in the Bible that say otherwise?
They can't? Or Worse? WON'T see them! NOR "connect" them!
Sad! But? GOD has HIS reasons!

No one who has actually read what I’ve written about the lamb slain before the foundation of the world would say this. You’re writing out of ignorance.

@Wrangler has seen what I’ve written on the matter. (I doubt @Armour of God has.) If he agrees with you then it will be clear that he is writing out of malice.
 

Lambano

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No.

We're counseling violence IN obedience to Christ. Or do you suppose he meant for us to buy a sword to be a dust collector?
What I'm hearing in this thread is much more than just a warning we may need to defend ourselves. What I am hearing and seeing is a mindset that approves the use violence and unholy alliances with the secular authorities, regardless of collateral damage, in order to accomplish Kingdom goals.

THAT will lead to becoming Jesus's enemy.
 

Wrangler

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What I am hearing and seeing is a mindset that approves the use violence and unholy alliances with the secular authorities, regardless of collateral damage, in order to accomplish Kingdom goals.
Then you aint hearing right because it is a holy alliance with secular authorities as those in power are put their by the Holy One.
 
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Wrangler

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regardless of collateral damage

Regrettable but unavoidable. Do you think the Jihadi's worry about collateral damage?

What I see is the Jihadis and the Crusaders both worshiping the sword.
You don't see right. Initiate violence. React to violence done to you. No the same.
 

Lambano

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Then you aint hearing right because it is a holy alliance with secular authorities as those in power are put their by the Holy One.
Would you believe that when the opposing political party is in power?

The secular authorities have their own goals and agendas. Those goals may or may not align with the Holy One's agenda. Being a cynic, I suspect most of the time, they do not.
 

Wrangler

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Would you believe that when the opposing political party is in power?

The secular authorities have their own goals and agendas. Those goals may or may not align with the Holy One's agenda. Being a cynic, I suspect most of the time, they do not.
What a stretch and total lack of discernment! Politically opposing bad public policy is a duty of citizenship within the confines of Give to Caesar what is Caesar's. As MLK Jr pointed out, we have a duty to follow moral laws and a duty to not follow immoral laws. Now, secular government has the moral authority to defend itself from Islamic Jihad. The Holy One's agenda is that we might live.

We're talking about life and death here, the weightier matters of the law, justice as our Lord proclaimed in Matthew 23:22-24, not secondary or tertiary matters like tithing mint and dill and cumin.
 

Matthias

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You don't see right.

He sees right.

Initiate violence. React to violence done to you. No the same.

Jesus and the apostles didn’t react to the violence done to them with the violence you‘re counseling. The early Christians didn’t react to the violence done to them with the violence you‘re counseling.

You’re counseling against the teaching and reaction of Jesus, the apostles, and the early church.

That, I suggest to my readers, is unwise counsel.

@Armour of God @NayborBear
 

NayborBear

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No one who has actually read what I’ve written about the lamb slain before the foundation of the world would say this. You’re writing out of ignorance.

@Wrangler has seen what I’ve written on the matter. (I doubt @Armour of God has.) If he agrees with you then it will be clear that he is writing out of malice.
And, YOU?!
Are speaking out of either "blindness (in part)?"
Or?
"Delusion!" (believing a lie!)

As BOTH of these "Judgements" are FROM "GOD!" (not Jesus Christ of Nazareth)?
The FIRST? Is FOR your "PROTECTION!"
The SECOND? Is for your "UNBELIEF!"

Riddle me this if you would:
Even BEFORE Jesus, let alone the apostles were born?
Why is that God HATED Esau....BEFORE he was even born? :contemplate:
 

Matthias

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Wrangler?
It is quite hard, not to mention frustrating to "connect dots" to those who choose to believe there are "NO MORE dots TO connect!"
For "THIS Slice of ETERNITY" is ALL the "picture" they are ABLE to comprehend!
There WAS no
(how can I say) "SLICES" PRIOR TO THIS CURRENT "SLICE!"
They cannot fathom the "Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the World" Was MANDATED from a PREVIOUS "SLICE OF ETERNITY!"
It SIMPLY didn't exist to them!
Although there ARE "dots to connect" in the Bible that say otherwise?
They can't? Or Worse? WON'T see them! NOR "connect" them!
Sad! But? GOD has HIS reasons!

“Never denounce a thing about which you know nothing.” - Oswald Chambers

That’s wise counsel.

If you want to denounce what I’ve written about the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, you should read it first.

***

Speaking of reading.

Have you read My Utmost For His Highest?

1780339938531.jpeg
 
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Matthias

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As MLK Jr …

A pacifist.

… pointed out, we have a duty to follow moral laws and a duty to not follow immoral laws. Now, secular government has the moral authority to defend itself from Islamic Jihad. The Holy One's agenda is that we might live.

That’s Romans 13.

We're talking about life and death here, the weightier matters of the law, justice as our Lord proclaimed in Matthew 23:22-24, not secondary or tertiary matters like tithing mint and dill and cumin.
 

NayborBear

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OH???????..........Yes!!!
It seems to me? That you are "happily satisfied" with the healing received from Jesus and the apostles!
THUS FAR!
But? There is SO MUCH MORE TO the "Kingdom of GOD" and the "Kingdom of Light", that "REQUIRES MORE Healing" then you and others have "closed your eyes to, and clasped your hands over your ears" FROM RECEIVING!

Revelation 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
John 14:2

In my Father's house are MANY mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Acts 28:27
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Hebrews 5:11
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
 

Matthias

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“Let us do good to all people” (Galatians 6:10), from the mouth / pen of the apostle who said “We do not use the weapons of the world” (2 Corinthians 10:4).

@Wrangler @Armour of God @NayborBear

In waging physical war, noncombatants are inevitably killed and wounded. Right?

When I learned war (as an Air Force ROTC student in college) the instructor used the term “collateral damage” to describe it.

Can we agree that killing our noncombatant enemies isn’t doing good to all people?

Followup note: We could not agree that killing our noncombatant enemies isn’t doing good to all people.

Why?

Killing noncombatants and principles of Just War theory.

“7. The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and noncombatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.”


Those counseling followers of Jesus to kill our enemies have asserted that the Crusades were “good“ and “justified.” The crusaders intentionally killed Muslim, Jewish and Christian noncombatants - men, women and children.

Those counseling followers of Jesus to kill our enemies have appealed to World War I and World War II. Noncombatants were killed in the millions - “collateral damage.” And what do they say about that? “Regrettable but unavoidable.”

Noncombatants - men, women, children - were intentionally targeted and killed in World War II. London, Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc. What do they say about that? “Good” and “justified” - when “our side” did it; “evil” and “unjustified” when “their side” did it.

Killing noncombatants works with Total War theory.

This is where those counseling followers of Jesus to kill our enemies really are.

One of the appeals they made was to 1 Samuel 15:3. “Good” and “justified” because commanded by God. If it was “good” and “justified” in that war it is “good” and “justified” in every war, they reasoned.

Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christian leaders did not appeal to that passage of scripture. They didn’t counsel followers of Jesus to do to their enemies what Samuel did to his. They taught and lived a radically different response to evil.

What do those counseling followers of Jesus to kill their enemies think about that? They skip past Apostolic and Ante Nicene history. What do they say about followers of Jesus who counsel followers of Jesus not to kill our enemies?

To begin with, the concealed identity church (represented here by @Wrangler) says that those so counseling are not followers of Jesus (“You are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”); they are “cowardly,” “disgusting,” “men in form but not substance.” The counsel to follow the teaching and example of Jesus and the apostles toward our enemies, they say, is “not good” and “not justified.”

@Armour of God @NayborBear

We were unable to agree that killing our noncombatant enemies - the lowest hurdle to clear - is not doing good to all people because you believe that it isn’t applicable to all people.

Jesus and the apostles applied it to all people. What they taught and counseled is good to all people.
 

Matthias

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OH???????..........Yes!!!
It seems to me? That you are "happily satisfied" with the healing received from Jesus and the apostles!
THUS FAR!
But? There is SO MUCH MORE TO the "Kingdom of GOD" and the "Kingdom of Light", that "REQUIRES MORE Healing" then you and others have "closed your eyes to, and clasped your hands over your ears" FROM RECEIVING!

Revelation 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
John 14:2

In my Father's house are MANY mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Acts 28:27
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Hebrews 5:11
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

Having obviously not read all that I‘ve written about the life of the age to come and practicing it in this present evil age, you‘re continuing to speak out of ignorance. I direct your attention again to the counsel I offered you in post #2575.

Even in retirement from the ministry, I teach preach and practice what Jesus and the apostles taught, preached and practiced. You and your companions are treating me as if I were an unbeliever.

You are not following Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.” - @Wrangler, representing the concealed identity church

Follow Jesus and the apostles. Love your enemies. Do good to them.” - me, representing in retirement the Church of God