Many Say ‘Just Believe’… But What Did Jesus Actually Teach?

[David Lamb]

we are justified not saved until death and judgment

So you presumably believe that the apostles were making a mistake when they said to the jailer at Philippi:

(Act 16:31) So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Perhaps you think they should have said, ""Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and when you die and passed through the judgment, you will be saved."

What about the words of Jesus Himself? He said:

(Joh 6:47) Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Not, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me will have everlasting life after he or she has died and been judged."

 

[mailmandan]

It's because most of these ideas you guys are arguing about don't come from God's Word, they come from the seminaries of men and their doctrines. Hyper-Grace is a title for one of them that began in late 1800's Britain by E.W. Bullinger. Another name for it was Hyper-Dispensationalism.

You guys? Why do you keep accusing me of being in the hyper-grace crowd? I neither teach a license to sin or sinless perfection. Hyper-grace seems to be your boogeyman, and you seem determined to get that indictment.

I disagree with YOUR wrong interpretation of that verse,

Of course you do.

because John is speaking about the "many antichrists" per the previous verse, so you cannot just try and isolate that 1 John 2:19 verse by itself.

The point that I was making from that verse (which you ignored) was for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.

The "many antichrists" represent those like the "tares" in Jesus' Matthew 13 parable of the wheat and tares. They represent the crept in unawares of Jude 4. They represent Satan's host that sneak in.

They are still unbelievers/children of the devil.

Those are not in the same situation of those who originally believe on Lord Jesus and then later fall away from Christ. Those I am talking about fit more of the situation of those in the parable of the sower that receive the 'seed' (Gospel) either by the wayside, or among stony ground, or among thorns. (See Matthew 13:18-23)

Originally believe what? A shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture, is choked out before reaching its goal does not represent saving belief in Jesus Christ. In contrast with the seed that fell on the good ground who are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. (Luke 8:15) Some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no fruit at all are not converted.

They do not represent false prophets. The Holy Spirit does not work through false prophets, but only through believers on Christ.

Well, it wasn't the Holy Spirit working through these false prophets in Matthew 7:22-23 because Jesus never knew them.

Likewise with the five foolish virgins in Christ's parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25, Jesus did NOT call those five foolish virgins false prophets. Your idea instead is from the doctrines of men.

False prophets or not, the wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to procure oil but did not. It's possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:23 - Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So, he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door (see John 10:9) because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’

 

[mailmandan]

Do you yourself labor so to remain in God's grace?

It's all about obtaining and maintaining salvation by works with this guy. He is thoroughly indoctrinated into Roman Catholicism. Official Roman Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works!

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You guys? Why do you keep accusing me of being in the hyper-grace crowd? I neither teach a license to sin or sinless perfection. Hyper-grace seems to be your boogeyman, and you seem determined to get that indictment.

Of course you do.

The point that I was making from that verse (which you ignored) was for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.

They are still unbelievers/children of the devil.

Originally believe what? A shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture, is choked out before reaching its goal does not represent saving belief in Jesus Christ. In contrast with the seed that fell on the good ground who are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. (Luke 8:15) Some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no fruit at all are not converted.

Well, it wasn't the Holy Spirit working through these false prophets in Matthew 7:22-23 because Jesus never knew them.

False prophets or not, the wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to procure oil but did not. It's possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:23 - Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So, he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door (see John 10:9) because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’

I am just amazed how strong legalism still penetrates the gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

I am just amazed how strong legalism still penetrates the gospel.

Legalism culminates in the gospel according to SELF.

SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Legalism culminates in the gospel according to SELF.

SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation

The pharisee, as apposed to the tax collector.

To few tax collectors entering through the narrow gate

 

[Davy]

The point that I was making from that verse (which you ignored) was for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.

They are still unbelievers/children of the devil.

No... they are not children of the devil. They are 'deceived' brethren believers.

What you said above is what makes you part of that Hyper-Grace crowd, whether you like being associated with that doctrine or not.

ANY... point that makes the claim that sincere believers on Jesus Christ cannot fall away through DECEPTION is following that Hyper-Grace doctrine or OSAS doctrine from men.

And anyone trying claim I'm just making that accusation up is in denial of Christ's warning against deception to SINCERE BELIEVERS per His Olivet discourse, and also Apostle Paul's warning against deception to SINCERE BELIEVERS involving the "falling away" "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2.

Christ's chosen cannot fall away, but that applies only to His "very elect" like He showed in Matthew 24:24, and John 17, as He already OWNS those. But the 'called' only CAN still be deceived and fall away if they are not careful. And by careful I mean depends on 'who'... they listen to, Christ in His Word, or to men and their doctrines.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No... they are not children of the devil. They are 'deceived' brethren believers.

No they are not

John makes it clear. THEY WERE NEVER OF US

And they are called Anti-Christs

1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

What you said above is what makes you part of that Hyper-Grace crowd, whether you like being associated with that doctrine or not.

ANY... point that makes the claim that sincere believers on Jesus Christ cannot fall away through DECEPTION is following that Hyper-Grace doctrine or OSAS doctrine from men.

And anyone trying claim I'm just making that accusation up is in denial of Christ's warning against deception to SINCERE BELIEVERS per His Olivet discourse, and also Apostle Paul's warning against deception to SINCERE BELIEVERS involving the "falling away" "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2.

Christ's chosen cannot fall away, but that applies only to His "very elect" like He showed in Matthew 24:24, and John 17, as He already OWNS those. But the 'called' only CAN still be deceived and fall away if they are not careful. And by careful I mean depends on 'who'... they listen to, Christ in His Word, or to men and their doctrines.

So you must save yourself. Got it..

 

[Davy]

No they are not

John makes it clear. THEY WERE NEVER OF US

And they are called Anti-Christs

1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

So you must save yourself. Got it..

Nah.... you're just regurgitating a doctrine of men, being a parrot for them.

The reason Hyper-Grace came up with that excuse using Apostle John's words was because they don't want to recognize that a sincere believer on Jesus Christ can be deceived, when quite a bit of Paul's and Peter's Epistles contain warnings to SINCERE BRETHREN against being deceived.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Nah.... you're just regurgitating a doctrine of men, being a parrot for them.

Nah, I am just quoting the word of God.

1 John 2:
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

1. it is the last hour
2. Many Antichrists have come, proving it is the last hour

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

3. The Antichrists went out from us, They departed from fellowshiping with us,
4. If they were a true part of us, they would have stayed with us, but to prove they were never of us, they left.
5. But they were never of us (they were never a true part of us ie they were never saved) who are we?

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

6. We are the anointed one. We are true children of God
7. Who are they?

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

8, They are antichrist
9. They deny the father and the son
10 They do not have the father or the son (they are lost.

I mean you can twist it.. But I would not recomend this, I would just interpret it word for word as it is stated

The reason Hyper-Grace came up with that excuse using Apostle John's words was because they don't want to recognize that a sincere believer on Jesus Christ can be deceived, when quite a bit of Paul's and Peter's Epistles contain warnings against being deceived.

A true believer can be decieved, It happens all the time

A true believer can not continue in sin, (1 John 3) and a sincere believer will never deny the father or the son. Because they have been anointed (born) into Gods family

again, if you want to save yourself. feel free. I will wish you luck.

 

[faithhopecharity]

The one thing I believe we can all
agree on!

That we must have an attitude of gratitude and give thanks to God for His many benefits and blessings!

God is infinite goodness, mercy, & love!

We deserve nothing, God grants blessings if we ask, and it's our duty to give thanks! Amen?

We cannot always have things our own way, but we can ALWAYS GIVE THANKS!!! Amen?

 

[Davy]

Nah, I am just quoting the word of God.

1 John 2:
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

1. it is the last hour
2. Many Antichrists have come, proving it is the last hour

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

3. The Antichrists went out from us, They departed from fellowshiping with us,
4. If they were a true part of us, they would have stayed with us, but to prove they were never of us, they left.
5. But they were never of us (they were never a true part of us ie they were never saved) who are we?

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

6. We are the anointed one. We are true children of God
7. Who are they?

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

8, They are antichrist
9. They deny the father and the son
10 They do not have the father or the son (they are lost.

I mean you can twist it.. But I would not recomend this, I would just interpret it word for word as it is stated

A true believer can be decieved, It happens all the time

A true believer can not continue in sin, (1 John 3) and a sincere believer will never deny the father or the son. Because they have been anointed (born) into Gods family

again, if you want to save yourself. feel free. I will wish you luck.

No, you are only interpreting that 1 John 2 Scripture according to the Hyper-Grace movement.

The "many antichrists" Apostle John mentioned represent the "tares" in Christ's parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13. Now those "tares" were... sown by the devil like Jesus said there in Matthew 13. Those are the ones you are speaking about.

But the ones that John was pointing to represented the DECEIVED, like the "five foolish virgins" in Christ's Matthew 25 parable of the ten virgins. The five foolish virgins had OIL that was in their lamps, but not a spare vessel of the OIL like the five wise virgins had. And because when the five wise virgins told the foolish ones to go BUY The OIL at the market, they went to try and do that, which means they were DECEIVED to think they could.

That OIL represents The Holy Spirit.

Just having that OIL that was in their lamps from the start shows they were sincere believers on Jesus Christ. But because they had no spare vessel of the OIL, and thought they could BUY it, means they were DECEIVED. Thus cannot apply the "many antichrists" label to them.

Christ's, Paul's, and Peter's warnings to sincere believing brethren against DECEPTION is contained all throughout The New Testament Scriptures. When are you folks going to start listening to Bible Scripture instead of to men's doctrines?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, you are only interpreting that 1 John 2 Scripture according to the Hyper-Grace movement.

Well instead of judging by you ropinion. Show me where I erred. in context of the passage. break it down like I did

The "many antichrists" Apostle John mentioned represent the "tares" in Christ's parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13. Now those "tares" were... sown by the devil like Jesus said there in Matthew 13. Those are the ones you are speaking about.

John told you who these antichrists are. they DENY THE FATHER

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

But the ones that John was pointing to represented the DECEIVED, like the "five foolish virgins" in Christ's Matthew 25 parable of the ten virgins. The five foolish virgins had OIL that was in their lamps, but not a spare vessel of the OIL like the five wise virgins had. And because when the five wise virgins told the foolish ones to go BUY The OIL at the market, they went to try and do that, which means they were DECEIVED to think they could.

That OIL represents The Holy Spirit.

Just having that OIL that was in their lamps from the start shows they were sincere believers on Jesus Christ. But because they had no spare vessel of the OIL, and thought they could BUY it, means they were DECEIVED. Thus cannot apply the "many antichrists" label to them.

Christ's, Paul's, and Peter's warnings to sincere believing brethren against DECEPTION is contained all throughout The New Testament Scriptures. When are you folks going to start listening to Bible Scripture instead of to men's doctrines?

my friend. Just stick with what John said.. Your all over th eplace. and trying to insert your idea of who these people are in order to maintain your legalistic belief

Again, John told us who they are. I do not have to go to mathew. just read what John said.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

An Antichrist deny's jesus. He deny's the Father and the Son, hence he does not have the father or the son. its there in black and white. Inspired by God. read it. take it for what it says.

 

[faithhopecharity]

Do you yourself labor so to remain in God's grace?

Do you yourself labor so to remain in God's grace?

yes!

do they labor to stay in sin?

walk in the flesh involves the deeds of the flesh (7 deadly sins)

Pride, anger, lust, gluttony, sloth, greed, envy.

walk in the spirit involves the deeds of the spirt (7 opposite virtues)

Humility, meekness, self-denile,
Temperance, diligence, generosity, charity.

(((deeds of righteousness)))

rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

((walking refers to the performance of deeds))


Gal 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

((sowing refers to the performance of deeds))

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

((to live according to the flesh or according to Spirit refers to to the performance of deeds))

It impossible to walk, sow, or live without deeds!

The rightous walk, sow, & live by the deeds of the Spirit!

1 pet 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

prayer, alms, fast, suffering, resisting etc.

thks

 

[Gray_Joy]

It's all about obtaining and maintaining salvation by works with this guy. He is thoroughly indoctrinated into Roman Catholicism. Official Roman Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works!

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

We can pray God leads them to find their way out of the church and to Christ.

Every Roman Catholic I've engaged in conversation about faith always has answered with, I'm Catholic, when I ask if they are Christian.

I always wanted to follow up with the Catholic and ask,what does that mean? But I didn't want to appear confrontational when I was sincerely seeking clarity.

Whereas others of any other denomination will say they are Christian , before referencing the denomination they're affiliated with.

 

[mailmandan]

No... they are not children of the devil. They are 'deceived' brethren believers.

Wow! 1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

1What you said above is what makes you part of that Hyper-Grace crowd, whether you like being associated with that doctrine or not.

I don't teach a license to sin or sinless perfection. So how does that make me part of the hyper-grace crowd?

ANY... point that makes the claim that sincere believers on Jesus Christ cannot fall away through DECEPTION is following that Hyper-Grace doctrine or OSAS doctrine from men.

I actually prefer the terms "eternal security of the believer" (Ephesians 1:13-14) or "preservation of the saints" (Psalm 37:28) over the term OSAS because of all the negative connections that typically get attached to it by those who teach salvation by works at the back door and suffer from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome.

And anyone trying claim I'm just making that accusation up is in denial of Christ's warning against deception to SINCERE BELIEVERS per His Olivet discourse, and also Apostle Paul's warning against deception to SINCERE BELIEVERS involving the "falling away" "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2.

The audiences of Jesus and Paul were not 100% sincere believers. There are genuine believers, and there are make believers, and it's not hard to find them mixed together throughout scripture, in various churches today and on various Christian forum sites.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 - The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Christ's chosen cannot fall away, but that applies only to His "very elect" like He showed in Matthew 24:24, and John 17, as He already OWNS those. But the 'called' only CAN still be deceived and fall away if they are not careful. And by careful I mean depends on 'who'... they listen to, Christ in His Word, or to men and their doctrines.

In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

 

[Gray_Joy]

I agree with that part, those in Christ do NOT make a habit of sinning. They instead do what? As per 1 John 1 they REPENT and ASK FORGIVENESS when they DO slip up and sin.

The hinge-point of the matter is the idea of not committing sin. Hyper-Grace lies and tries to claim they cannot sin after having believed on Lord Jesus. God's Word shows different.

And the reality per God's Word, especially like how Apostle Paul explained it in Romans 7, as long as we live in these flesh bodies, our flesh is under the law of sin, and ONLY Lord Jesus was able to dwell in the flesh and be without sin, which is one of the things that makes HIM The Savior, and not us ourselves.

Rom 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV


SUMMARY:

All... in the flesh can still slip up and sin, and it is mainly because of their flesh. That's why John said what he did in 1 John 1, and why Lord Jesus told the guilty within five Churches in Revelation to 'repent'.

Jesus Speaking...

Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
KJV

Rev 2:16
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
KJV

Rev 2:20-22
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
KJV

Rev 2:26
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
KJV

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV


So I say NO... to the Hyper-Grace crowd, and I will instead listen to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Hyper-Grace doctrines of men try to claim once saved always saved, and cannot sin anymore, and thus is a doctrine of the devil designed to stop... the believer from seeing the NEED to REPENT to Jesus when they find they have slipped up and committed a sin. And those in Christ will... continue to commit little slip ups that require repenting and asking Jesus forgiveness.

You may deny the Gospels irrevocable covenant as you like. Say,no,as you did there.

The Gospel does not require mortal consent to affirm its eternal truth. God created it perfect and it shall remain so forever.

 

[faithhopecharity]

Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6)
and the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us..(Romans 5:5) Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:7)

1 John 3:18 - My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

It's obvious you teach salvation by works are are seeking merit for salvation. You don't understand grace or faith.

Perfect here means complete, mature, fully developed. Not absolute perfection or salvation based on the merit of works.

Roman Catholic rhetoric.

so do you finally reject faith alone or are you holding to the mental illness of its faith alone but this faith is never alone?

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6)
and the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us..(Romans 5:5) Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:7)

1 John 3:18 - My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

It's obvious you teach salvation by works are are seeking merit for salvation. You don't understand grace or faith.

Perfect here means complete, mature, fully developed. Not absolute perfection or salvation based on the merit of works.

Roman Catholic rhetoric.

not by works alone or natural works apart from Christ and grace

Christ does not do it all for us so there is NOTHING we can do

Christ enables us to do it with Him

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace issufficient for thee: for my strength ismade perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

does not exclude works or grace

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6)
and the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us..(Romans 5:5) Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:7)

1 John 3:18 - My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

It's obvious you teach salvation by works are are seeking merit for salvation. You don't understand grace or faith.

Perfect here means complete, mature, fully developed. Not absolute perfection or salvation based on the merit of works.

Roman Catholic rhetoric.

Perfect here means complete, mature, fully developed. Not absolute perfection or salvation based on the merit of works.

how do you know?

scripture often has multiple plausible meanings without saying which is truth and which is error

how do we know which is true?

thks