Many Say ‘Just Believe’… But What Did Jesus Actually Teach?

[Gray_Joy]

I think he may KNOW that everyone will not recieve him in faith. But he does not wish it.

Wish? No.
Chooses it,yes. Just as he tells us.

 

[mailmandan]

we are justified not saved until death and judgment

Justified =:saved from the PENALTY of sin. Glorified = saved from the PRESENCE of sin. This can be confusing for works-salvationists.

justified freely by grace which provides union with God and His saints in the new covenant

Amen!

then we must participate in sanctification and perseverance

Not must, but will. (Romans 8:30)

why is the virtue of patience so often presented in scripture for us?

Because it confirms our union with Christ. You make it sound like patience is a difficult self endeavor that most Christians will fail to achieve, which culminates in works righteousness.

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done they will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Patience is not simply conjured up through the flesh. Patience is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) for those who have received the Holy Spirit and is directly received through God's grace rather than solely through human willpower.

James 1:3
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

2 Peter 1:6
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

Again, this is not mere human willpower. It is God who works in believers both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. (rev 12:17)

'Descriptive' of the saints.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wish? No.
Chooses it,yes. Just as he tells us.

He choses to save everyone who sees and believes, Yes John 6..

 

[faithhopecharity]

So, we are initially saved by faith at the starting line of the race but ultimately saved by works at the finish line?

we are justified not saved until death and judgment

justified freely by grace which provides union with God and His saints in the new covenant

then we must participate in sanctification and perseverance

thks

why is the virtue of patience so often presented in scripture for us?

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done they will of God, ye might receive the promise.

James 1:3
Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

No, that's definitely the wrong way to look at it, because a non-believer without Faith can have more works in Christ than all those of Faith put together, and it won't be enough to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. One must... have FAITH, regardless of works.

However, what did Jesus say about treasure and one's heart? Wherever your treasure is, that is where your heart will be. And that means if you truly have Faith, then you will naturally have works to go along with that Faith. Likewise with the race analogy, you don't just claim to be a race-car driver with only filling out a race application form; you actually participate in the race.

Those against this understanding usually point to man's false Hyper-Grace Dispensationalist philosophy. That system by men is deception, because it promotes the idea that once one believes on Lord Jesus Christ, they have never have sin again, and never fall away. But their falling away and continuing in sin is exactly... what that Hyper-Grace system promotes! They don't watch theirselves for sin, and don't repent of sin, because they are told they cannot sin anymore because of their Faith on Jesus Christ. In that sense, that false doctrine is saying that doing iniquity doesn't really matter, because Jesus has already covered that.

And that is exactly the example Lord Jesus gave in Matthew 7 about those who will say, "Lord, Lord" on the day of His future coming, and He will tell them, "... I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt.7:23)

Amen!

will never inherit the kingdom of God or attain to eternal salvation

Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1-4
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
2 cor 4:7
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27
rom 8:1
can lose grace gal 5:4
can have grace in vain 1 cor 15:10
treasure in earthen vessels 2 cor 4:7
1 Jn 3:15 no life (grace)

We have union by grace not eternal salvation!

thks

 

[Gray_Joy]

He choses to save everyone who sees and believes, Yes John 6..

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 6:65: "He went on to say, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.'"

John 6:37: "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

John 6:65: "He went on to say, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.'"

John 6:37: "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."

take these in context.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Gray_Joy]

take these in context.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

It's true.
Those whom God calls into his grace will be saved.
Those whom he chooses not to call shall not be saved.

We are God's choice. We are not saved of ourselves , but by the grace of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's true.
Those whom God calls into his grace will be saved.
Those whom he chooses not to call shall not be saved.

He does not chose anyone not to call.

We are God's choice. We are not saved of ourselves , but by the grace of God.

I did not save myself. God drew me, He brought me to my knees as the tax collector.. All I did was recieve him. It is the work of God I believed.

God will hold us accountable for what we chose, to recieve God in faith. or to deny God in unbelief. He was sent to save the world!

 

[Gray_Joy]

He does not chose anyone not to call.

I did not save myself. God drew me, He brought me to my knees as the tax collector.. All I did was recieve him. It is the work of God I believed.

God will hold us accountable for what we chose, to recieve God in faith. or to deny God in unbelief. He was sent to save the world!

Thank you for the chat.
Be Blessed

 

[Davy]

In context, Jesus is addressing false prophets/bad trees that bear bad fruit. Jesus never knew them (vs. 23) which means they were never saved. Not they were once saved but fell away and are no longer saved.

That I cannot agree with, nor does God's Word. It is instead a doctrine from the Hyper-Grace cannot sin anymore crowd, like, "Their Faith wasn't real, otherwise they would have remained with us."

Those of Matthew 7 that Jesus will say to get away from Him cast out demons in His name, preached Him in the streets, and did many wonderful works in His name. Someone who never truly believed on Jesus cannot do that, because those works come from The Holy Spirit through the 'believer'. And thus those Jesus will turn away represent those who 'fall away' from the Faith, and confirms the idea of the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25 who only had the Oil (Holy Spirit) that was in their lamps, and not a spare vessel of the Oil like the five wise virgins had.

 

[Gray_Joy]

That I cannot agree with, nor does God's Word. It is instead a doctrine from the Hyper-Grace cannot sin anymore crowd

No.
God says what he means and means what he says.
Only those whom he calls can respond and be saved. And with his eternal seal upon us ,his holy spirit works from within us so that we know too,what he said about sin is also true.

Those in him do not make a habit of sinning. If they do they are not his,and he does not know them.

, like, "Their Faith wasn't real, otherwise they would have remained with us."

Those of Matthew 7 that Jesus will say to get away from Him cast out demons in His name, preached Him in the streets, and did many wonderful works in His name. Someone who never truly believed on Jesus cannot do that, because those works come from The Holy Spirit through the 'believer'. And thus those Jesus will turn away represent those who 'fall away' from the Faith, and confirms the idea of the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25 who only had the Oil (Holy Spirit) that was in their lamps, and not a spare vessel of the Oil like the five wise virgins had.

 

[faithhopecharity]

Justified =:saved from the PENALTY of sin. Glorified = saved from the PRESENCE of sin. This can be confusing for works-salvationists.

Amen!

Not must, but will. (Romans 8:30)

Because it confirms our union with Christ. You make it sound like patience is a difficult self endeavor that most Christians will fail to achieve, which culminates in works righteousness.

Patience is not simply conjured up through the flesh. Patience is a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22) for those who have received the Holy Spirit and is directly received through God's grace rather than solely through human willpower.

Again, this is not mere human willpower. It is God who works in believers both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13)

'Descriptive' of the saints.

patience is not faith its love enduring suffering

love in action
love is made known in deeds

we need patience

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

patience is a perfect work, implies merit

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfectwork, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

thks

6 sins against the Holy Ghost!

That express extreme resistance to God's grace:

1) Despair: Giving up hope for one's salvation and the forgiveness of sins.

2) Presumption: Hoping to be saved without merit or repentance, relying only on God's mercy.

3) Impugning the known truth: Willfully and stubbornly rejecting the truth revealed by God.

4) Envy of another's spiritual good:

5) Obstinacy in sin: Persisting in a state of sin despite the Holy Spirit's guidance to repent.

6) Final impenitence: Dying without repenting for one's sins.
(the unforgivable sin)

thks

 

[mailmandan]

That I cannot agree with, nor does God's Word. It is instead a doctrine from the Hyper-Grace cannot sin anymore crowd, like, "Their Faith wasn't real, otherwise they would have remained with us."

What is it with you and labels? Both sinless perfection and a license for immortality are false doctrines. (1 John 1:8-10; Jude 1:4) Do you disagree with 1 John 2:19? They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Those of Matthew 7 that Jesus will say to get away from Him cast out demons in His name, preached Him in the streets, and did many wonderful works in His name.

These false prophets CLAIMED to prophecy in His name, cast out demons and do many wonderful works, yet Jesus did not confirm the authenticity of their CLAIM. Instead, Jesus told them, I never knew you, depart from me you who practice lawlessness. (Matthew 7:23)

Someone who never truly believed on Jesus cannot do that, because those works come from The Holy Spirit through the 'believer'.

False prophets are deceivers. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved, so they were not believers who received the Holy Spirit.

In Matthew 24:4 - And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. In verse 24, we read - For false Christ's and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

This is nothing new. Even in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 14:14, we read - And the Lord said to me, The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart.

And thus those Jesus will turn away represent those who 'fall away' from the Faith, and confirms the idea of the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25 who only had the Oil (Holy Spirit) that was in their lamps, and not a spare vessel of the Oil like the five wise virgins had.

Matthew 7:15-23 mentions nothing about falling away from faith. The wording of the five foolish virgins in our text is all too familiar to the reader of Matthew’s Gospel: Matthew 25:11 - "Later, the other virgins came too, saying, ‘Lord, lord! Let us in!’ 12 But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I do not know you!"

Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven" but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven - (See John 6:40). 22 On that day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons and do many powerful works?’ 23 Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

Taking Matthew’s words literally, I read that the difference between the foolish virgins and the wise virgins: The wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil, and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to procure oil, but did not. It's possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:23 Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves thrown out. 29 Then people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and take their places at the banquet table in the kingdom of God. 30 But indeed, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Jesus may indeed be warning us in this parable that there will be a number of people who look like Christians, who associate with Christians, and who even think they are Christians, who will be shocked to learn that they are not saved at the return of our Lord and Christ never knew them. What a sobering thought!

 

[Gray_Joy]

Conditional perseverance

ex 20 mt 19:17 1 tim 6:14 keep the commandments
deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God within all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
ez 36:25-27 ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mk 13:13 mt 10:22 endure to the end
Matt 7:14 narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life
Matt 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 3:16 continues in believing
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
Jn 15:10 keep my commandments
Rom 1:5 obedience
Rom 8:13-17 but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness:
1 cor 7:24 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:13 (3) three things are eternal; faith, hope and charity and the greatest is charity.
2 thes 1:4 faith & patience
heb 6:12 faith and patience inherit the promises.
Gal 5:2-4 fallen
Gal 5:25 if we live in the spirit
Col 1:21-23 If ye continue in the faith
Col 2:5 steadfast
2 Tim 2:3 endure hardship
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
1 pet 2:20 if we suffer patiently
1 Jn 2:24-28 grace must abide in us
1 Jn 3:6 abideth in Him (Christ)
Heb 3:4-6 if we hold fast
Heb 6:4-9 if they fall away
Heb 12:7 if ye endure
Heb 12:22-25 if we turn away
James 1:12 endureth

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


1 Timothy 5:12
Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13
He who endures to the end shall be saved.

rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Perseverance is conditional and requires our participation and faithfulness!

I suppose since you have eternal security by faith alone you can ignore scripture?

thks

Do you yourself labor so to remain in God's grace?

 

[mailmandan]

patience is not faith its love enduring suffering

Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6)
and the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us..(Romans 5:5) Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:7)

love in action
love is made known in deeds

1 John 3:18 - My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

we need patience

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

patience is a perfect work, implies merit

It's obvious you teach salvation by works are are seeking merit for salvation. You don't understand grace or faith.

James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Perfect here means complete, mature, fully developed. Not absolute perfection or salvation based on the merit of works.

6 sins against the Holy Ghost!

That express extreme resistance to God's grace:

1) Despair: Giving up hope for one's salvation and the forgiveness of sins.

2) Presumption: Hoping to be saved without merit or repentance, relying only on God's mercy.

3) Impugning the known truth: Willfully and stubbornly rejecting the truth revealed by God.

4) Envy of another's spiritual good:

5) Obstinacy in sin: Persisting in a state of sin despite the Holy Spirit's guidance to repent.

6) Final impenitence: Dying without repenting for one's sins.
(the unforgivable sin)

Roman Catholic rhetoric.

 

[Davy]

Those in him do not make a habit of sinning. If they do they are not his,and he does not know them.

I agree with that part, those in Christ do NOT make a habit of sinning. They instead do what? As per 1 John 1 they REPENT and ASK FORGIVENESS when they DO slip up and sin.

The hinge-point of the matter is the idea of not committing sin. Hyper-Grace lies and tries to claim they cannot sin after having believed on Lord Jesus. God's Word shows different.

And the reality per God's Word, especially like how Apostle Paul explained it in Romans 7, as long as we live in these flesh bodies, our flesh is under the law of sin, and ONLY Lord Jesus was able to dwell in the flesh and be without sin, which is one of the things that makes HIM The Savior, and not us ourselves.

Rom 7:18-25
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV


SUMMARY:

All... in the flesh can still slip up and sin, and it is mainly because of their flesh. That's why John said what he did in 1 John 1, and why Lord Jesus told the guilty within five Churches in Revelation to 'repent'.

Jesus Speaking...

Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
KJV

Rev 2:16
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
KJV

Rev 2:20-22
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
KJV

Rev 2:26
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
KJV

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

Rev 3:19
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV


So I say NO... to the Hyper-Grace crowd, and I will instead listen to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The Hyper-Grace doctrines of men try to claim once saved always saved, and cannot sin anymore, and thus is a doctrine of the devil designed to stop... the believer from seeing the NEED to REPENT to Jesus when they find they have slipped up and committed a sin. And those in Christ will... continue to commit little slip ups that require repenting and asking Jesus forgiveness.

 

[Davy]

What is it with you and labels?

It's because most of these ideas you guys are arguing about don't come from God's Word, they come from the seminaries of men and their doctrines. Hyper-Grace is a title for one of them that began in late 1800's Britain by E.W. Bullinger. Another name for it was Hyper-Dispensationalism.

Both sinless perfection and a license for immortality are false doctrines. (1 John 1:8-10; Jude 1:4) Do you disagree with 1 John 2:19? They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I disagree with YOUR wrong interpretation of that verse, because John is speaking about the "many antichrists" per the previous verse, so you cannot just try and isolate that 1 John 2:19 verse by itself. The "many antichrists" represent those like the "tares" in Jesus' Matthew 13 parable of the wheat and tares. They represent the crept in unawares of Jude 4. They represent Satan's host that sneak in.

Those are not in the same situation of those who originally believe on Lord Jesus and then later fall away from Christ. Those I am talking about fit more of the situation of those in the parable of the sower that receive the 'seed' (Gospel) either by the wayside, or among stony ground, or among thorns. (See Matthew 13:18-23)

These false prophets CLAIMED to prophecy in His name, cast out demons and do many wonderful works, yet Jesus did not confirm the authenticity of their CLAIM. Instead, Jesus told them, I never knew you, depart from me you who practice lawlessness. (Matthew 7:23)

They do not represent false prophets. The Holy Spirit does not work through false prophets, but only through believers on Christ.

Likewise with the five foolish virgins in Christ's parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25, Jesus did NOT call those five foolish virgins false prophets. Your idea instead is from the doctrines of men.

 

[Davy]

Here is a major proof of what I have been saying about the false doctrine of men called Hyper-Grace in the seminaries that wrongly teach those in Christ cannot slip up and commit sin anymore.

In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus was emphatic that His future coming to gather His saints (His Church) will be AFTER... the coming great tribulation. He didn't leave any room for debate on that. Either the believer accepts what He said, or they do not.

In those same... Scriptures, Jesus points to the same gathering spots that Apostle Paul pointed to in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about the gathering of the Church by Lord Jesus at His future coming.

Apostle Paul, in case one does not know what he said in 1 Thess.4, showed that the saints which have already died in Christ are metaphorically 'asleep', and are there with Jesus already, waiting for the resurrection. Paul says when Jesus comes, He will bring those asleep saints with Him, which means FROM Heaven once raised from the dead. That's one group of saints, the group Jesus pointed to in the Matt.24:31 example that are gathered from one end of heaven to the other. Then per 1 Thess.4:17, Paul said the saints still alive on earth on that day will be "caught up" to Jesus in the "air" when He comes. That's another group of saints Jesus pointed to in the Mark 13:27 version, that are gathered from the ends of the earth. My point?

Paul taught the same... events of Christ's gathering of His saints as Lord Jesus did in His Olivet discourse, showing He was speaking to His Church, and not only to His disciples that were with Him upon the mount of Olives at His 1st coming.

But men's doctrines, in the 1830's in Great Britain, devised another doctrine which God's Word actually warns us against, and that is the false Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. It instead claims Jesus comes BEFORE... the great tribulation to gather His saints, when that idea is nowhere written in God's Word.

Not only does the Pre-trib Rapture wrongly teach Christ's gathering of His Church at His future coming, but they also claim Christ's Luke 17 example of the first one that is TAKEN is Christ's Church, when Jesus's disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?", and He said wheresoever the DEAD CARCASE is, that's where the eagles (Satan's host) will be gathered (compare Luke 17:37 with Matthew 24:28). That is the basis of Tim LaHaye's 13 book series based on the false Pre-trib Rapture called Left-Behind.

Now I know many of these brethren in Christ that hold to that false Pre-trib Rapture theory from men's doctrines; I've worked with them in the aviation industry over my lifetime. Lot of them are my friends. Some are my family. They are good people, and they are sincere about their Faith on Lord Jesus Christ. But they put more of their trust in men's doctrine than they do with what The LORD has said in His Word. And because of that, they will suffer for it by being deceived.

The "strong delusion" Apostle Paul warned us about in 2 Thessalonians 2 is about the coming of a FALSE-MESSIAH to Jerusalem to play our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul said he will proclaim himself as God, and over all that is even called... God, or that is worshiped. For us Christians that means he will claim to be our Lord Jesus. And Paul showed he will work the same miracles that Lord Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:23-26, that IF it were possible, would deceive even Christ's "very elect."

Those brethren who hear this warning from me that have never heard this covered in their Church, then usually ask me, "Will there be a fake rapture then?" In my opinion based on Jesus' and Paul's warnings about the coming false-Messiah and the gathering to him, I say YES! There will be a FAKE RAPTURE to the FALSE-MESSIAH who comes first. Those brethren who have been lied to about being the first one TAKEN, indeed surely will be, but by the WRONG MESSIAH.

So here is an EASY way to know when that FALSE-MESSIAH comes and claims to be Christ come to gather you. And we, Christ's Church, will... still be here on earth through the coming "great tribulation". Make no mistake about that. We are expected to make a STAND for Lord Jesus throughout it, and give a WITNESS for Jesus against the beast if we are one of those delivered up for that (See Mark 13). IF... you see or hear claim that MESSIAH has come, or returned, and is at JERUSALEM, and you are still... in your flesh body, then you KNOW that Messiah is a FAKE, an imposter. That because per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, Christ's Church still alive on earth on the day of His coming are to be 'changed' to their "spiritual body" at the "twinkling of an eye", which means the casting off of our flesh body.

 

[Davy]

And by the way, the majority of those brethren I know that follow men's false Hyper-Grace doctrines also follow the false Pre-trib Rapture theory of men's doctrine.

Something I find unique that happened to show what 'real' Bible study does, is about the TV preacher Jim Baker. Remember him, the PTL Club, and his wife Tammy with all the overloaded makeup? He spent a hitch in prison for basically stealing the people's donations, etc. And he heavily taught the false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

But while in prison, he said he found time to actually study The Bible more deeply, and discovered that the Pre-trib Rapture theory was actually not written in God's Word, but a Post-tribulational coming by Christ is written. So now he preaches a Post-trib coming of our Lord Jesus for His Church, which aligns with what Jesus proclaimed in those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Chapters that I referenced.

Don't follow man, you could be deceived. Stay in God's Word as written.

 

[mailmandan]

I agree with that part, those in Christ do NOT make a habit of sinning. They instead do what? As per 1 John 1 they REPENT and ASK FORGIVENESS when they DO slip up and sin.

The hinge-point of the matter is the idea of not committing sin. Hyper-Grace lies and tries to claim they cannot sin after having believed on Lord Jesus. God's Word shows different.

I have often heard folks who seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome say that hyper-grace teachers “pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality.” (Jude 1:4) I don't usually hear these folks accuse hyper-grace teachers of teaching sinless perfection.

Those in Christ do NOT make a habit of sinning which does not mean they are sinless 24/7. (1 John 1:8-10)

In regard to 1 John 3:9 as Greek scholar and Christian AT Robertson explains:

Doeth no sin (αμαρτιαν ου ποιε). Linear present active indicative as in verse 1 John 3:4 like αμαρτανε in verse 1 John 3:8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.

His seed (σπερμα αυτου). God's seed, "the divine principle of life" (Vincent). Cf. 1 John 3:1.

And he cannot sin (κα ου δυνατα αμαρτανειν). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were κα ου δυνατα αμαρτειν or αμαρτησα (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive αμαρτανειν can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of αμαρτανε in verse 1 John 3:8 and αμαρτανων in verse 1 John 3:6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see αμαρτητε and αμαρτη in 1 John 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of αμαρτανειν here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Romans 6:1 επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with αμαρτησωμεν in Romans 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).

1 John 3 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 John 3, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

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