Many Say ‘Just Believe’… But What Did Jesus Actually Teach?

[David Lamb]

we are justified not saved until death and judgment

So you presumably believe that the apostles were making a mistake when they said to the jailer at Philippi:

(Act 16:31) So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."

Perhaps you think they should have said, ""Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and when you die and passed through the judgment, you will be saved."

What about the words of Jesus Himself? He said:

(Joh 6:47) Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

Not, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me will have everlasting life after he or she has died and been judged."

 

[mailmandan]

It's because most of these ideas you guys are arguing about don't come from God's Word, they come from the seminaries of men and their doctrines. Hyper-Grace is a title for one of them that began in late 1800's Britain by E.W. Bullinger. Another name for it was Hyper-Dispensationalism.

You guys? Why do you keep accusing me of being in the hyper-grace crowd? I neither teach a license to sin or sinless perfection. Hyper-grace seems to be your boogeyman, and you seem determined to get that indictment.

I disagree with YOUR wrong interpretation of that verse,

Of course you do.

because John is speaking about the "many antichrists" per the previous verse, so you cannot just try and isolate that 1 John 2:19 verse by itself.

The point that I was making from that verse (which you ignored) was for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.

The "many antichrists" represent those like the "tares" in Jesus' Matthew 13 parable of the wheat and tares. They represent the crept in unawares of Jude 4. They represent Satan's host that sneak in.

They are still unbelievers/children of the devil.

Those are not in the same situation of those who originally believe on Lord Jesus and then later fall away from Christ. Those I am talking about fit more of the situation of those in the parable of the sower that receive the 'seed' (Gospel) either by the wayside, or among stony ground, or among thorns. (See Matthew 13:18-23)

Originally believe what? A shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture, is choked out before reaching its goal does not represent saving belief in Jesus Christ. In contrast with the seed that fell on the good ground who are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. (Luke 8:15) Some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no fruit at all are not converted.

They do not represent false prophets. The Holy Spirit does not work through false prophets, but only through believers on Christ.

Well, it wasn't the Holy Spirit working through these false prophets in Matthew 7:22-23 because Jesus never knew them.

Likewise with the five foolish virgins in Christ's parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25, Jesus did NOT call those five foolish virgins false prophets. Your idea instead is from the doctrines of men.

False prophets or not, the wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to procure oil but did not. It's possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:23 - Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So, he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door (see John 10:9) because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’

 

[mailmandan]

Do you yourself labor so to remain in God's grace?

It's all about obtaining and maintaining salvation by works with this guy. He is thoroughly indoctrinated into Roman Catholicism. Official Roman Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works!

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You guys? Why do you keep accusing me of being in the hyper-grace crowd? I neither teach a license to sin or sinless perfection. Hyper-grace seems to be your boogeyman, and you seem determined to get that indictment.

Of course you do.

The point that I was making from that verse (which you ignored) was for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us.

They are still unbelievers/children of the devil.

Originally believe what? A shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture, is choked out before reaching its goal does not represent saving belief in Jesus Christ. In contrast with the seed that fell on the good ground who are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. (Luke 8:15) Some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Those who produce no fruit at all are not converted.

Well, it wasn't the Holy Spirit working through these false prophets in Matthew 7:22-23 because Jesus never knew them.

False prophets or not, the wise virgins had oil for their lamps, while the foolish virgins did not. The wise virgins had the opportunity to obtain oil and did so. The foolish virgins had plenty of opportunity to procure oil but did not. It's possible to be in close contact with Christ, and with Christians, and yet not be saved. I am reminded of a similar passage in the Gospel of Luke:

Luke 13:23 - Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So, he said to them, 24 "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door (see John 10:9) because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, ‘Lord, let us in!’ But he will answer you, ‘I don’t know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will reply, ‘I don’t know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!’

I am just amazed how strong legalism still penetrates the gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

I am just amazed how strong legalism still penetrates the gospel.

Legalism culminates in the gospel according to SELF.

SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Legalism culminates in the gospel according to SELF.

SELF promotion
SELF righteousness
SELF preservation

The pharisee, as apposed to the tax collector.

To few tax collectors entering through the narrow gate