Check out who the "usward" are who Peter is talking to and you will get the meaning.
The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14
- Thread starter Earburner
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
He knows what he is doing. This is calculated. He has no interest in dialogue - only stirring the pot, misrepresenting Amil, hit and run and creating division.
Hey Si, it's easy to sometime miss points, happens a lot to me too.
>>>>""I believe Matthew 24:15-21 relates to what occurred in 70 AD""
Matt 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Do you believe the 70AD levelling of Jerusalem is a greater tribulation event than :-
Or the 1931 China floods :-
`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)
`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)
`the Son of Man… comes in His own glory, and in His Father`s, in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)
`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)
Do you believe that any other great tribulation imaginable is like nothing ever before or shall ever be again? How can any tribulation event in this world throughout human history be compared with great tribulation that has come against the church as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is being proclaimed through the name of Jesus Christ?
Great tribulation Christ speaks of was not the destruction of the nation in 70 AD. Because the nation had already experienced utter destruction when the first temple was destroyed and would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. (Dan. 9:2)
Davy
Well-Known Member
Which of course none... of that negates the Biblical fact that Lord Jesus' coming is about His return to earth WITH His gathered Church, to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Yeah, still future, on the 'last day' of this present world...
John 6:44
44 No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV
Please read Genesis chapter 18 and chapter 32:22-32 and you will see two times that Jesus came down to the earth before the first advent
It is not God's will to damn men. They damn themselves. And, yes, God elects. If you do not like that God then you must reject the God of the Bible.
Romans 9:10-21 says, “when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”
And continues, “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.”
Acts 13:48 says, “As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”
Romans 8:29-30 says, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Some posts I haven't even read yet let alone able to address them. These days I have other things on my mind sometimes. For one, I'm worried about my wife. Then I come here with the stress of that already having to deal with, then trying to focus on everything in here at the same time. I'm not young anymore. I don't have the same kind of focus I did when I was younger. Plus I'm literally dizzy all of time, might be diabetes but I haven't consulted a dr to find out. So I come here to try and get away from a few things only to find this place more stressful that what I'm trying to get away from for a bit every once awhile. Some of us have real problems in life. I don't have a good and easy life like some of you appear to likely have.
My wife is more important to me than winning or losing any debates. My wife is not sick or anything, but she just turned 84 in April and I don't know how much more time she has left. I'm younger than her. I married a woman 15 years older than me when I was 25. But I don't expect anyone to have any real empathy for someone like me who can't even see some Scriptures the way they tend to see them. That alone apparently already makes me a foe.
And as far as @Marty fox goes, he was never complaining about the manner I address posts, he was complaining that I wasn't addressing his posts. And if what I said to him was rude, it should be equally rude to tell someone to be sure to take off their Amil or Premil glasses first. Since that was basically the sense I was applying this in. Don't blame me. I learned stuff like that from you all and others since I observed people saying things like that to each other while they were debating. But when I say things similar, it equals being rude in my case.
Unless one is thick skinned, maybe they shouldn't be posting in here to begin with?
Last edited:
I understand. Focus on your wife. That is more important.
It is frustrating that you make big detailed attacks on Amil and then disappear. Why do that? Just watch on. People take good time to respond in detail to you and you just ignore. You are wasting their time.
Yes, Peter, I believe in the future at the end of the trib, when Jesus come in power and great glory with His angelic army to bring vengeance upon the rebellious and deliverance for those left in Israel.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I've showed this how many times now?
Zech 14:1-9
14 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
That "day of the Lord" Apostles Paul and Peter showed is the very last day of this present world when Jesus comes "as a thief" (Rev.16:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4; 2 Peter 3:10).
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
That is the last battle on earth when Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord" with His angels from Heaven to fight Armageddon (Revelation 16:15-21).
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
That Mount of Olives is where Lord Jesus ascended to Heaven from in view of His disciples, per Acts 1. Two angels appeared to His disciples after His ascension, and told His disciples that Jesus shall come 'in like manner' as they saw Him ascend to Heaven. This is it, even though it is written by The Holy Spirit through the Old Testament prophet Zechariah. And notice it says Jesus will bring "all the saints with Thee."
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
In Christ's Olivet discourse, He said no man knows the day or hour of His coming, but only The Father knows.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.
KJV
That idea of "living waters" is meant literally, upon this earth. Per Ezekiel 47, those waters represent God's River that flowed out of His Paradise of Eden per Genesis 2, and fed four other rivers upon the earth. Ezekiel 47 shows those waters will flow out from Christ's future earthly "sanctuary" to feed and heal waters upon this earth.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Oh, and I should have begun my answer with addressing your phrase, "... the Body of Christ coming back to earth?" The Body of Christ is not raptured to Heaven in the first place. That is an assumption by men on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory who do not understand about this earthly realm and the heavenly realm. God's Abode of His Garden of Eden, called Paradise in the Greek Septuagint Bible, was once upon this earth, literally. He was living here, His abode here on earth. And per Revelation 21 He said He is going to return to live with us, here, on earth.
So what is Paul's mystery about the "caught up" event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17?
Firstly, in the 1 Thess.4:13-16 verses, Paul showed that the 'asleep' saints, those who have already died in Christ, will be resurrected on the day of Christ's coming, and that Jesus will bring them with Him when He comes to earth. Where is that which He will bring them with Him from?? From Heaven. The saints who have died are already there with Him, per Paul in 2 Cor.5.
Then in the 1 Thess.4:17 verse, Paul points to the saints still alive on earth on that same day of Jesus' coming, and that these will be "caught up" in the "air" to Jesus and the resurrected saints on their way to earth. Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that those "caught up" will be "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye" to the "spiritual body." That is how being "caught up" to the "air" is meant; it means once changed Jesus catches those up to Him in their spiritual bodies on His way to Jerusalem on earth. It is pointing to the breath of Life type body, the spiritual body.
But Apostle Paul did not complete the picture, because he did not reveal in that 1 Thess.4 Scripture WHERE Lord Jesus and His saints will be headed to.
But the Zechariah 14:1-5 Scripture does reveal where Jesus is returning to with all... His saints. And it is upon this earth.
Hi Davy,
The DAY of the LORD is a specific day AND a period of time. The Old Testament writers showed this. The Greek and the Hebrew word for DAY means 2 times - a specific day AND a period of time. You seemed to not understand that.
The Prophet Joel says the start of the Day of the Lord is with the northern army coming down to Israel. God will deal with them. (Joel 2) The prophet Ezekiel speaks of this war, (Ez. 38) and Israel will take 7 years to burn the weapons. (Ez. 39: 9) This reveals a Day that is a period of time. That is the Day that Peter was referring to - with the Lord coming as a thief and then continuing on till the new heavens and new earth.
The Day that you refer to correctly is the specific day of the Lord when He comes in power and great glory with His angelic army.
Zech. 14: 5 has been wrong translated in some Bibles. It is NOT `saints,` but `HOLY ONES.` And holy ones can be angels or saints. Thus, we need more scriptures. Here they are -
`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)
`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)
`the Son of Man… comes in His own glory, and in His Father`s, in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)
`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)
Similar threads
