The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Marty fox]

The Bible does NOT indicate "A" or "THE" great tribulation. Strong's Concordance confirms this. Nowhere in the Bible can you find (KJV) a or the great tribulation. Why? I believe it's because "great tribulation" is NOT limited to any single event or period throughout history. But is what the church on earth is called to endure throughout all ages, especially as the time of Christ' coming again grows nearer.

The Olivet Discourse was not spoken for ethnic Jews, warning the nation of Israel what shall soon befall them through apostasy. The Discourse is spoken to the first disciples of Christ, who at that time were, Messianic or Christian Jews. Christ is warning Christians, beginning with them, as well as all faithful Christians throughout the ages until the end of the final age about all that shall befall the church as faithful disciples preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ.

The destruction of the Jewish city and temple was not the primary focus of the Discourse. That's why when they ask Christ about the destruction, He only says it will be utterly destroyed.

Revelation 7
4 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Well it does but the word "The" separates it from other great tribulations

 

[Marty fox]

Doesn't mtter if those times were Jesus or not. The first advent is the first, and there is only one more according to the bible.

Thanks for your prayers, I'm glad our debating and frustrations issues are never personal LOL we are all still on the same side

first advent is the first, and there is only one more according to the bible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 7
4 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Well it does but the word "The" separates it from other great tribulations

Some translations don't include the word "the" there because it's not in the original manuscripts. I don't believe that verse is talking about any particular great tribulation time period or event, but rather is talking generally about believers around the world enduring great tribulation until death and coming out of great tribulation.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

[Marty fox]

Some translations don't include the word "the" there because it's not in the original manuscripts. I don't believe that verse is talking about any particular great tribulation time period or event, but rather is talking generally about believers around the world enduring great tribulation until death and coming out of great tribulation.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

I believe that's its called "the great tribulation" because it will never end in our world. It started the day Stephen was killed and is still happening today.

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks for your prayers, I'm glad our debating and frustrations issues are never personal LOL we are all still on the same side

Definitely praying for both of your wives. :)

 

[ewq1938]

I believe that's its called "the great tribulation" because it will never end in our world. It started the day Stephen was killed and is still happening today.

In the Textus Receptus and other manuscripts the "the" is not present. I don't believe the text is speaking of a specific tribulation but great/bad tribulation people have gone through over time.

 

[ewq1938]

No that’s not true who walked with Adam in the garden?

The Father. I would think it is Him in most of the OT examples you might be thinking of. But, I don't consider possible OT appearances of the one we call Jesus as an official coming because the bible only gives two, physical comings, as the only two (birth and when he comes "the second time"). The leaving and returning after the cross was not physical like the first and second coming which is why the NT does not place it as the second coming.

 

[Marty fox]

The Father. I would think it is Him in most of the OT examples you might be thinking of. But, I don't consider possible OT appearances of the one we call Jesus as an official coming because the bible only gives two, physical comings, as the only two (birth and when he comes "the second time"). The leaving and returning after the cross was not physical like the first and second coming which is why the NT does not place it as the second coming.

I found this its interesting

In the Bible, Exodus 33:20 states, "You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live." This verse highlights the absolute holiness of God and the sinfulness of humanity. It emphasizes that approaching God in His full glory is impossible for humans due to our sinful nature. This concept is echoed in other scriptures, such as John 1:18, which states that "no one has ever seen God" except through Jesus Christ, who has made God known. The idea underscores the necessity of a mediator between God and humanity, ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ

 

[ewq1938]

I found this its interesting

In the Bible, Exodus 33:20 states, "You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live." This verse highlights the absolute holiness of God and the sinfulness of humanity. It emphasizes that approaching God in His full glory is impossible for humans due to our sinful nature. This concept is echoed in other scriptures, such as John 1:18, which states that "no one has ever seen God" except through Jesus Christ, who has made God known. The idea underscores the necessity of a mediator between God and humanity, ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ

He has a face and another passage speaks of hands and back....Daniel also describes him sitting and holding a book he gives to the Son of man.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


This phrase is a figure of speech that simply means no one has fully understood or known God except Jesus and that's because Jesus is God's son.


Clarke:


It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son


Many people have seen God:

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.


1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".

Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.



Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”

 

[rwb]

Revelation 7
4 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Well it does but the word "The" separates it from other great tribulations

Don't know what version you're using but according to the Strong's Concordance linked to KJV "the" is NOT there. And in fact "the" great tribulation is found nowhere in KJV of the Bible.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You're making an assumption that "the" is there to separate if from other great tribulations, can you show where Scripture speaks of "great tribulation(s)"? Because I find nowhere in the Strong's Concordance where "great tribulations" (plural) is found.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe that's its called "the great tribulation" because it will never end in our world. It started the day Stephen was killed and is still happening today.

So, it seems that you would relate the great tribulation of Revelation 7 to the "much tribulation" that all of us have to go through to enter the kingdom of God, as Acts 14:22 says? We don't all have to endure persecution and even martyrdom like Stephen did, but, as Acts 14:22 indicates, we all have to endure "much tribulation" to enter the kingdom of God. And, as Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:12: "all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.". If that's your understanding of great tribulation in Revelation 7, then I agree.

 

[Marty fox]

So, it seems that you would relate the great tribulation of Revelation 7 to the "much tribulation" that all of us have to go through to enter the kingdom of God, as Acts 14:22 says? We don't all have to endure persecution and even martyrdom like Stephen did, but, as Acts 14:22 indicates, we all have to endure "much tribulation" to enter the kingdom of God. And, as Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:12: "all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.". If that's your understanding of great tribulation in Revelation 7, then I agree.

Yes we agree

 

[PeterAndroz]

Possibly. I know blasphemy of the HS is unforgiveable, but unsure if the mark is as well. Best to refuse it :)

Hearing, believing, trusting the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel = Eph 4:30 sealed unto redemption.
If the MARK came out tomorrow & a Eph 4:30 SEALED believer took it, do you believe they are then lost ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Don't know what version you're using but according to the Strong's Concordance linked to KJV "the" is NOT there. And in fact "the" great tribulation is found nowhere in KJV of the Bible.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You're making an assumption that "the" is there to separate if from other great tribulations, can you show where Scripture speaks of "great tribulation(s)"? Because I find nowhere in the Strong's Concordance where "great tribulations" (plural) is found.

Hi @rwb. How are you doing so far.

I thought I would explain my position on Revelation 7:13-15 now that you brought it up.

Revelation 7:13-15

"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

The overall context of Revelation 7, as I understand it, concerns the sealing of ALL Israel—that is, all true believers from both the Old Testament and the New Testament. These are those who have overcome in Christ by faith and are the servants of God who reign with Him.

The great multitude described here consists of those who have endured great tribulation for the sake of Christ. This is not the tribulation of the cross itself, but the tribulation believers experience in a fallen world while remaining faithful to Him. It is called the "great tribulation" because of its vast scope and duration, extending from Adam and Eve until the last of God's elect is gathered in.

This is consistent with Christ's warnings in Matthew 24, where He foretold persecution, suffering, and tribulation that would come upon His people. Those who endure to the end would be saved. The Lord spoke of this reality long before John's vision in Revelation!

John 16:33

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Because Christ overcame the world, believers overcome in Him. Christ contrasts the peace found in Him with the tribulation found in the world. He is not speaking of tribulation within the cross, but of the tribulation His people will encounter while living in the world regardless of when they lived in.

The context is clear. Christ specifically declares that His followers shall have tribulation in the world. This applies to ALL of the elect because, as followers of Christ, we stand in opposition to the world system as well as congregations. Yet we have no reason to fear, for Christ has already overcome.

Our victory over the tribulation of the world comes through His finished work on the cross. In other words, the cross is the means by which we overcome tribulation; the cross itself is not the tribulation being overcome. I believe that distinction is important.

Now What About the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24?​

Matthew 24:19-24

"(19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

I believe this "great tribulation" is part of the same larger Great Tribulation described in Revelation 7:14, but it refers specifically to its most intense and severe phase near the end.

During this period, false christs and false prophets will dominate the visible church and deceive multitudes through counterfeit gospels and doctrines. Spiritual deception will become so widespread that, if it were possible, even the elect would be deceived. And becasue of them, the church no longer do the great commission that make the world darker for the Elect to endure.

It will also be a time when the number of living elect on earth becomes increasingly small since there will be no more salvation for men after the sealing of all Elect, Revelation 7:1-4. The days must be shortened for the elect's sake, otherwise no flesh would be saved in order to be rapture out. Christ will intervene before that point is reached.

When He appears, He will gather those who are still "alive and remain" upon the Earth. Thus, the shortening of those days culminates in the appearing of Christ and the gathering of His people.

For that reason, I understand Matthew 24's Great Tribulation not as a separate tribulation from Revelation 7:14, but as the climactic and most intense portion of the same age-long tribulation that God's people have endured throughout history. The difference is not one of kind, but of degree. The final period will be unparalleled in its severity, deception, and opposition to the truth, yet it remains part of the same ongoing conflict between the Kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of this world.

Hope this helps!

 

[ewq1938]

Hearing, believing, trusting the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel = Eph 4:30 sealed unto redemption.
If the MARK came out tomorrow & a Eph 4:30 SEALED believer took it, do you believe they are then lost ?

I don't know. I'm not sure if that is unforgiveable or not but if the same person blasphemed the HS then yes, they lost salvation.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I don't know. I'm not sure if that is unforgiveable or not but if the same person blasphemed the HS then yes, they lost salvation.

Rev 14:9-11 Lake of fire is the destination for those who take the 'mark'
Something is wrong if a Eph 4:30 SEALED UNTO REDEMPTION believer can end up in the lake of fire.
Could it be that Eph 4:30 is n/a to believers in Rev ?

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

The DAY of the LORD is a specific day AND a period of time. The Old Testament writers showed this. The Greek and the Hebrew word for DAY means 2 times - a specific day AND a period of time. You seemed to not understand that.

I don't listen to 'men' that twist what the actual written Word of God says. I'm well aware that the Pre-trib Rapture school 'tries'... to pin other times and events to that "day of the Lord" other than how it is written in God's Word. I'll have none of that, thank you.

Lord Jesus showed that "day of the Lord" is the day of His future LITERAL coming to gather His Church, per Revelation 16:15, and in His Olivet discourse when He spoke of the thief breaking in metaphor, Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 about the day of The Lord coming as a thief in the night accompanying the "sudden destruction" which the Old Testament prophets spoke of, and Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 when he showed the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" in which the works of man will be burned... off this earth by God's consuming fire.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I don't listen to 'men' that twist what the actual written Word of God says. I'm well aware that the Pre-trib Rapture school 'tries'... to pin other times and events to that "day of the Lord" other than how it is written in God's Word. I'll have none of that, thank you.

Lord Jesus showed that "day of the Lord" is the day of His future LITERAL coming to gather His Church, per Revelation 16:15, and in His Olivet discourse when He spoke of the thief breaking in metaphor, Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 about the day of The Lord coming as a thief in the night accompanying the "sudden destruction" which the Old Testament prophets spoke of, and Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 when he showed the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" in which the works of man will be burned... off this earth by God's consuming fire.

and the "day of the Lord" happens AFTER the Rapture :)
You won't watch it though
..

 

[Davy]

and the "day of the Lord" happens AFTER the Rapture :)
You won't watch it though
..

Why should I watch STUPID VIDEOS like that, when I have the written Word of God that already shows me that Christ's coming to gather His Church will be AFTER... the tribulation??

Lord Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Don't listen to those deceived about the timing and order of Lord Jesus' future coming to gather His faithful Church, for those men are NOT listening to Him in HIS WORD. They instead exist to DECEIVE you away... from Christ Jesus, and instead lead you to the devil!

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 14:9-11 Lake of fire is the destination for those who take the 'mark'
Something is wrong if a Eph 4:30 SEALED UNTO REDEMPTION believer can end up in the lake of fire.
Could it be that Eph 4:30 is n/a to believers in Rev ?

I think we need to settle a dif question before tackling this one:

Can that same person blaspheme the HS?