:::Jesus taught Paul and Jesus said angels are used in the gathering.
Then list the verses from Paul that teach Angels do the GATHERING in 1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thes 4:16-17
The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14
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Then list the verses from Paul that teach Angels do the GATHERING in 1 Cor 15:52 & 1 Thes 4:16-17
Yes, we are in agreement, and I too understand the living waters of Zechariah as the outpouring of the Holy Spirit man receives through hearing and believing the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through the coming of Christ, the promised Messiah foretold of Old.
John 4:10 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
John 4:14 (KJV) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:38 (KJV) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
It would be great to learn others benefit from this understanding. I appreciate you sharing your understanding coming FROM the BIBLE! Because the Bible is what we are encouraged to study for truth.
This is why I tried to make a point about Preterits adding "the" or "A" with the mention of great tribulation. Some call themselves Amillennial/Partial Preterit, so they try to find agreement between the two by arguing great tribulation Christ says His disciples will be called to endure as they/we take the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the nations of the world, is NOT limited to ONE continual great tribulation that faithful saints throughout the ages have endured. And that when Christ said this, He is speaking of not only great tribulation for faithful saints, but also another great tribulation for the nation of Israel in 70 AD. This thinking comes more from the Jewish Historian, Josephus rather than the Word of God. And I too agree it is NOT biblical.
What I've noticed in these forums is that some calling themselves PP appear to read that doctrine into many, many verses and passages of the Bible. So much so that it's becoming hard to discern the difference between those calling themselves PP and those embracing Full Preterism.
While I totally agree that we, the church are living stones, I see Christ's warning to His disciples when He was asked about the literal city, temple, and surrounding buildings. It is my opinion that Christ plainly tells them these literal physical things will be thrown down because these first century disciples still held admiration for them. The reason Christ tells them of the physical destruction was to get their hearts and minds off of the physical things that pertain to God, that they might begin to understand that Christ did not come with the literal/physical Kingdom of God, but the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God that would be within ALL people of faith in Him.
This IMO was the only thing that Christ speaks of coming exclusively for Israel of the flesh.
Telling His disciples to pray their flight would not be in winter or on the Sabbath is not of concern for the whole world! Christ is speaking this message to HIS DISCIPLES, Christians. Why would disciples of Christ throughout ALL the ages need to SPIRITUALLY understand winter and Sabbath? Reply #544 gives a very good, biblical spiritual understanding of these. I hope that you haven't so hardened your heart against fellow Christians that like others you simply laugh off some very good and beneficial replies.
Also, you seem to think that Christ is directing this message to the Jews in unbelief, making Him more concerned about what becomes of the Jews than what shall become of the church.
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I'm not laughing off anything; all I'm saying is that I believe that the Olivet Discourse was about the time leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the physical Old Testament way.
The temple sacrifices carried on after the first advent which was a rejection of Jesus also His Jesus death and resurrection, so God removed it
Luke 19
41 And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, “Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side 44 and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
The Old Testament had already spiritually ended but the Christ rejecting Jews physically kept it going
The Olivet Discourse was directed to the saints to heed Jesus' warning and flee the city before the siege and they did. It was also proving to apostate Israel that Jesus was God when His prediction happened when He said that it would, and history proves Him right and that He is God
Yes, but that is not all the must be fulfilled in that generation according to Preterits.
Time out. You are assuming that every reference to Jerusalem, the temple, and stones must be interpreted literally, even though the New Testament repeatedly redefines these things spiritually in Christ.
For example, in Matthew 23:37-39, Christ is not merely lamenting a geographical city. He is pronouncing judgment upon HIS PEOPLE, the Old Testament congregation, that had rejected its Messiah. "Your house is left unto you desolate" is covenantal language!!! The house of God was being abandoned because the leadership and the unbelieving children of Israel had rejected Christ. The focus is not stones and mortar but the desolation of the covenant community that stood in opposition to Him.
Likewise, in Matthew 24, you assume that because the disciples pointed to physical stones, Christ must therefore have been prophesying the demolition of physical stones in 70 AD. Really!?!? But throughout Scripture, stones frequently represent people. Don't you realize that God's house is built of living stones. The temple of God is His people. First the Jews, then the Gentiles! Christ's concern was NEVER architecture. The true temple was already being transferred from the old covenant order to the New Testament congregation. The Old Testament congregation fell to make the way for the New Testament congregation to be rebuilt... and guess what with what stones. You figure it out by study with your own Bible.
You also keep appealing to Matthew 24:34 as if "this generation" must mean around forty years. Yet just a few verses earlier, in Matthew 23:35-36, Christ speaks of a evil generation stretching from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. That is not a forty-year period. It is the continuing generation of unbelief and rebellion that began with Cain and continues until all God's purposes are fulfilled.
The "generation" under judgment is not merely a first-century demographic group. It is the seed of unbelief that opposes God throughout history. That generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled, and all things clearly were certainly not fulfilled in 70 AD. Christ did not return. The resurrection did not occur. Death was not abolished. The new heavens and new earth did not arrive.
Your interpretation begins with the assumption that the Olivet Discourse is about 70 AD and then forces every verse into that framework. Big Mistake. Mine begins with the New Testament's own definitions of Jerusalem, Israel, the temple, and God's people.
You see physical stones and a physical city. I see Christ announcing the judgment and passing away of the Old Testament congregation and the establishment of His New Testament Kingdom. That transition began in Christ's earthly ministry—not in 70 AD—and it reaches its consummation only at His Second Coming.
Let them with ears let him hear! Selah!
No, I'm not assuming that every reference to Jerusalem, the temple, and stones must be interpreted literally, that's why I posted Mathew 23:37, of course Jesus was meaning apostate Israel when He said "“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it". Of course, Jesus wasn't saying literal buildings killed the prophets and the saints.
I'm not sure if you're actually reading my whole post, if you where you should have seen that, please reread them, it seems that you have a fully preconceived idea of what I think and block out what I'm actually fully saying.
What I'm saying is that they are twofold meanings the literal and spiritual. The literal destruction did actually happen proving that. This act from God brought a physical end to the Christ rejecting sacrifices.
Israel always thought that God would not abandon them and that the Messiah would kick the Romas out, but now after the destruction of the city and the temple they would know that God had judged them. The destruction was a sign from God.
Yes, Jesus was talking about the literal stones that they were looking at when they asked the questions but there was also a spiritual meaning that they wouldn't understand until after the day of Pentecost.
So, I'm not saying that everything is complete in a literal meaning, but a literal meaning is a part of the Olivet Discourse and history proves it.
Marty, it was not the final physical end of the literal city and temple that brought to end the sacrificial and ceremonial laws of Moses. The Old was brought to an end with the advent of Christ. It was by His birth with the war in heaven, His death and resurrection that salvation came for whosoever among all mankind believes.
Revelation 12:1-2 (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Revelation 12:10 (KJV) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The literal physical destruction shows all the nations of the world that salvation through Christ is the one and only means for man to obtain eternal life. No longer would God wink as He had in the days before Christ but now commands ALL men everywhere to repent and believe on Him.
Acts 17:30 (KJV) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
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TribulationSigns
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I read what you wrote Marty. It was the cross/resurrection that brought to an end of the physical because that's when the New Covenant through His blood was ushered in. To this day Christ rejecting Jews continue to observe parts of the Old Law even without the temple.
The Olivet Discourse is NOT focused on the destruction of Jerusalem, and the destruction was not the end of the Old Covenant sacrificial and ceremonial Laws. The Old ended with the advent of Christ.
TribulationSigns
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I disagree. The Jews were indeed the living stones of the tabernacle/temples of Old Testament. For example, when God commanded the tabernacle, His ultimate purpose was not merely a building:
"And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them." (Exodus 25:8)
Notice that God says He would dwell among them, not merely inside a structure. And God explicitly calls the congregation of Israel His house:
"Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee... for they are men wondered at..." (Zechariah 3:8)
And more directly:
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we..." (Hebrews 3:6)
The writer of Hebrews had just spoken about Moses:
"Moses verily was faithful in all his house..." (Hebrews 3:5)
The "house" under Moses was the Old Testament congregation of Israel.
And The Congregation in the Wilderness, Stephen refers to Israel in the wilderness as the church (ekklesia, congregation):
"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness..." (Acts 7:38)
This shows God's Old Testament people were already His congregation before the New Testament era.
God Dwelling in People Rather Than Buildings
At the dedication of the temple, Solomon acknowledged that God could not be confined to a building:
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" (1 Kings 8:27)
The physical temple pointed beyond itself to God's dwelling with His people.
Now, the New Testament fulfillment, Peter applies the temple imagery to believers:
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house..." (1 Peter 2:5)
And Paul writes:
"Ye are the temple of the living God..." (2 Corinthians 6:16)
"For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2 Corinthians 6:16)
Paul is quoting Old Testament covenant promises originally given to Israel (such as Leviticus 26:11-12 and Ezekiel 37:27) and applying them to the New Testament congregation. This suggests that the physical temple was always a shadow of God's true dwelling place—His covenant people. They are the stones!
So my argument is this:
The physical temple in Jerusalem was NEVER God's ultimate dwelling place. It was a type and shadow of God's true temple—His covenant people. Israel was God's congregation in the wilderness (Acts 7:38), God's house under Moses (Hebrews 3:5), and the New Testament church is built from the same living stones (1 Peter 2:5). The temple changed from shadow to fulfillment, but God's dwelling place has always been His people.
The physical temple was only a shadow of a greater reality to come. God's true temple was never ultimately a building made of physical stone, but a people made alive by His Spirit.
This is why Christ said:
"Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19).
The Jews thought He was speaking of Herod's temple, but Scripture immediately clarifies:
"But he spake of the temple of his body" (John 2:21).
Notice that Christ did not say the temple would be rebuilt decades later after the temple in Jerusalem was physically destroyed in 70 AD. He said it would be raised in three days. The old temple order had to fall first, and it did so at the Cross when the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51), signifying the end of the old covenant system!
Through His death and resurrection on third day, Christ established the true temple—the New Testament congregation built of living stones:
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house" (1 Peter 2:5).
You need to understand that the physical temple pointed to this spiritual reality. Just as the shadow gives way to the substance, the earthly temple gave way to Christ and His people. The true rebuilding occurred through Christ's resurrection and the gathering of His elect into one spiritual house.
If the temple Christ spoke of was not rebuilt until 70 AD, where is the fulfillment of His promise to raise it in three days? Scripture gives the answer: the temple was rebuilt in His resurrection, not in the destruction of Jerusalem. The old covenant temple order ALREADY passed away at the Cross, and the new temple—Christ and His living stones—was raised on the third day.
Therefore, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD did NOT have any prophecy signification. It did not rebuild the temple.
Yes of course, Christ put an end to it, but the physical act of sacrifices was still being carried out, what can't you get about that? And that actually happened the temple was destroyed that stopped it.
That's why God destroyed the temple so that they could finally see there was no need for it and that God didn't require it anymore
Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.
Hebrews 10
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again, and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
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There is nothing here that I disagree with! You show good spiritual understanding of how God speaks of His congregation/church as His Temple. Also, I'm sure you understand from many verses and passages of God revealing to His people judgments before the physical judgment is poured out.
Here are a few examples of how and why God warns of judgment that is to come.
- Ezekiel 33:3–8 – God commands Ezekiel to warn the people when He sees the sword coming, so they may turn from their evil ways. If they do not heed the warning, their blood will be on their own hands
- Jeremiah 6:10–17 – God sends prophets to warn Judah and Jerusalem, but they refuse to listen, showing that warnings are given before destruction
- Ezekiel 3:18–21 – God says to the prophet, “If thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness… his blood will I require at thine hand.” But if the righteous are warned and do not sin, they will surely live
- Genesis 6:13–14 – Before the flood, God warns Noah of the coming destruction and commands him to build the ark
- Hebrews 11:7 – Noah, “being warned of God of things not seen as yet,” prepared the ark in faith
- Jonah 3:4–10 – God warns Nineveh of forty days of destruction, and when they repent, He repents of the evil He intended
- Matthew 24:37–39 – Jesus compares the coming of the Son of Man to the days of Noah, warning that people will be caught unaware
- Luke 17:28–29 – Jesus warns of the destruction of Sodom, saying it will come “in the same day” as Lot’s departure
- Genesis 19:15–17 – Angels warn Lot to escape Sodom before it is destroyed
- 2 Peter 2:6–7 – God warns Sodom and Gomorrah, delivering Lot and sparing the righteous
- 1 Peter 4:17 – “For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?” — a warning to believers before judgment begins
- Acts 17:31 – Paul warns that God has fixed a day to judge the world in righteousness, giving assurance to all by raising Jesus from the dead
These verses show that God’s warnings are not random — they are part of His plan to give people time to repent. Whether through prophets, visions, or direct commands, He reveals the coming judgment before it is executed, offering a chance for change and mercy.
IMO with biblical examples Christ forewarned His disciples of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, the temple and buildings that they would not come under the judgment of God with apostate Israel.
As I've already said Marty, destroying the Old Jewish temple did not prevent apostate unbelieving Jews from observing as many of the Old Covenant Laws possible without the temple. Still today Jews in unbelief continue to keep many of the Old Laws while still waiting for the promised Messiah to come.
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