The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[rwb]

You are claiming things that I have not said or even believe you don’t even know what I believe

The great tribulation is on the church it was the wrath of God that was upon apostate Israel

The wrath of God was also a tribulation period for apostate Israel as there can be many tribulations periods for people but the great tribulation is only on the church

Where in Scripture do we read "The wrath of God was also a tribulation period for apostate Israel"?

Also we aren't talking about many tribulation(s) for people. We are discussing "great tribulation" (not THE) that Christ warned His disciples they would be called to endure as they preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the nations of the world.

 

[WPM]

Where in Scripture do we read "The wrath of God was also a tribulation period for apostate Israel"?

Also we aren't talking about many tribulation(s) for people. We are discussing "great tribulation" (not THE) that Christ warned His disciples they would be called to endure as they preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the nations of the world.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[rwb]

Everyone is deceived apart from you and Trib saints. Pride comes before a fall.

Truth annoying you??? Are you also deceived by the doctrine of PP, and therefore call speaking truth Pride? I do agree Scripture affirms "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

Matthew 7:3 (KJV) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:5 (KJV) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[rwb]

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Thank you for pointing out the argument I've been making which is how the destruction of Israel is not called "great tribulation", it is the same promise God has always made toward a disobedient, hard hearted people in unbelief, promising His WRATH would come upon them.

 

[rwb]

What seems often missed by FP/PP is how "great tribulation" that shall come against the building of the Kingdom of God in heaven as the Gospel of Christ is preached, comes through the power of evil and continues until the end of time when Christ shall come again! OTOH the "wrath" that comes from God serves the purpose of God and is over. That's why it's a mistake to say the destruction in 70 AD was "great tribulation" for the apostate nation.

 

[WPM]

Truth annoying you??? Are you also deceived by the doctrine of PP, and therefore call speaking truth Pride? I do agree Scripture affirms "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

Matthew 7:3 (KJV) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:5 (KJV) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Everyone is deceived apart from you and Trib saints. Pride comes before a fall.

 

[Marty fox]

What seems often missed by FP/PP is how "great tribulation" that shall come against the building of the Kingdom of God in heaven as the Gospel of Christ is preached, comes through the power of evil and continues until the end of time when Christ shall come again! OTOH the "wrath" that comes from God serves the purpose of God and is over. That's why it's a mistake to say the destruction in 70 AD was "great tribulation" for the apostate nation.

You are not being honest here I just clarified to you that I believe that the great tribulation is on the church

 

[rwb]

You are not being honest here I just clarified to you that I believe that the great tribulation is on the church

I don't deny that Marty! Problem is you also say the destruction of Israel in 70 AD was also called tribulation for them, implying the words Christ spoke SPECIFICALLY to His disciples about what they/we faithful saints MUST endure as we preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the nations of the world. God does NOT call His wrath against apostate Israel tribulation! He calls it His WRATH, not to be confused with "great tribulation" the Church on earth is called to endure through the power of Christ within us. As I've said, "great tribulation" saints must endure is never ending. The wrath poured upon apostate Israel was not never ending.

 

[rwb]

Everyone is deceived apart from you and Trib saints. Pride comes before a fall.

Not everyone is deceived only those who embrace the false doctrine of PP/FP. Apparently, that describes you! Because it is also apparent that truth once again does not set well with you when it comes from fellow Christians that you don't like! Sorry, but truth is more important to me than your hurt feelings!

 

[rwb]

You are not being honest here I just clarified to you that I believe that the great tribulation is on the church

Marty, it is not my intention to attack or offend you! I have always thought of you as being more like-minded in biblical doctrine as I, with the exception of this particular preterist doctrine. In the past I kept silent when this doctrine came up for fear of offending those whom I call brothers in Christ. Sadly, what I see happening is this unbiblical doctrine quickly spreading far and wide, and many turning away from truth and embracing error. Even though you may not like what I say against this doctrine, I will only be convinced it is truth when it can be shown that Preterit doctrines do not force contradiction and confusion into the Word of God. The old adage is always true, "if my understanding of biblical doctrine causes confusion or contradiction, then I must re-examine what I have come to believe is true, because the Word of God will not force contradiction and confusion"!

 

[Marty fox]

I don't deny that Marty! Problem is you also say the destruction of Israel in 70 AD was also called tribulation for them, implying the words Christ spoke SPECIFICALLY to His disciples about what they/we faithful saints MUST endure as we preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the nations of the world. God does NOT call His wrath against apostate Israel tribulation! He calls it His WRATH, not to be confused with "great tribulation" the Church on earth is called to endure through the power of Christ within us. As I've said, "great tribulation" saints must endure is never ending. The wrath poured upon apostate Israel was not never ending.

The wrath of God was also a tribulation time for the Jews , just like the second world war was a tribulation time for the Jews. Just like calling it a time of trouble

But the specified "The great tribulation" is on the church. I can't understand why you can't get this, I am not saying that the "The great tribulation" is the same as the wrath of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matt 24:31 Apparently Jesus returns to the ground, do you disagree ?
Zech 14:
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives
Acts 1:
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
..
I believe that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is a separate event to Matt 24, Rev 19
1 Thess 4 - Christ returns to the clouds, no mention of the ground.

Yes, I disagree. We will meet Him "in the air", not on the earth. He is not going to come from heaven in the future more than once. Do you see that described in the Acts 1:9-11 passage? No. He will come again from heaven ONCE in the future and it will be in like manner as He ascended to heaven (visibly and bodily). At that time, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and changed (1 Cor 15:22-23,51-52) and gathered along with those who are alive and remain (Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27) and then caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). At that point "sudden destruction" by fire will come down upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape", but those found worthy will escape it (1 Thess 5:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Luke 21:33-36).

Tell me how Jesus will return to the ground on the earth when He will be burning up the earth when He comes unexpected as a thief in the night?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, it is not my intention to attack or offend you! I have always thought of you as being more like-minded in biblical doctrine as I, with the exception of this particular preterist doctrine. In the past I kept silent when this doctrine came up for fear of offending those whom I call brothers in Christ. Sadly, what I see happening is this unbiblical doctrine quickly spreading far and wide, and many turning away from truth and embracing error. Even though you may not like what I say against this doctrine, I will only be convinced it is truth when it can be shown that Preterit doctrines do not force contradiction and confusion into the Word of God. The old adage is always true, "if my understanding of biblical doctrine causes confusion or contradiction, then I must re-examine what I have come to believe is true, because the Word of God will not force contradiction and confusion"!

Thanks for this post but then see post #671.

It's no confusion or contradition

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are claiming things that I have not said or even believe you don’t even know what I believe

The great tribulation is on the church it was the wrath of God that was upon apostate Israel

The wrath of God was also a tribulation period for apostate Israel as there can be many tribulations periods for people but the great tribulation is only on the church

Right. It's just silly for anyone to think that any reference to "great tribulation" has to be referring to the same thing. Look at this...

Revelation 2:18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, "These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first.
20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

This "great tribulation" clearly has nothing to do with either Matthew 24:21 or Revelation 7:9. There's no reason to think that every reference to "great tribulation" has to refer to the same great tribulation.

 

[rwb]

The wrath of God was also a tribulation time for the Jews , just like the second world war was a tribulation time for the Jews. Just like calling it a time of trouble

But the specified "The great tribulation" is on the church. I can't understand why you can't get this, I am not saying that the "The great tribulation" is the same as the wrath of God.

From my perspective I view the time of trouble, even trouble(s) that have come against Jews in this world, also came/come from the wrath of God. Just as God used Titus and the Roman Army to devastate apostate Israel, I believe God also used Hitler and the German Nazis to accomplish His purpose. Unlike "great tribulation" that came and continues until the end for the church, history shows us this time of trouble shall follow apostate Israel at different times until the end of time, but never without end, and will only end when Christ comes again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Truth annoying you??? Are you also deceived by the doctrine of PP, and therefore call speaking truth Pride? I do agree Scripture affirms "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

Matthew 7:3 (KJV) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:5 (KJV) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

He doesn't have to be a partial preterist to recognize that Jesus talked about both a local event that would occur in Judea and Jerusalem, which occurred in 70 AD, as well as the global event of His future second coming in the Olivet Discourse. It's a mistake for anyone to think that the Olivet Discourse is only about the past or only about the future. It is primarily about events related to His future second coming, but He was asked one question about the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings and He answered it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not everyone is deceived only those who embrace the false doctrine of PP/FP. Apparently, that describes you! Because it is also apparent that truth once again does not set well with you when it comes from fellow Christians that you don't like! Sorry, but truth is more important to me than your hurt feelings!

Making false accusations towards someone does not help your case. Seeing one passage of the Olivet Discourse as relating to 70 AD does not make someone a partial preterist. Partial preterists believe that all, or most, of the Olivet Discourse is about what happened in 70 AD. Amills like WPM, jeffweeder and myself who only see Matthew 24:15-21 (Mark 13:14-20, Luke 21:20-24) as relating to 70 AD in the Olivet Discourse are not partial preterists.

 

[rwb]

From my perspective I view the time of trouble, even trouble(s) that have come against Jews in this world, also came/come from the wrath of God. Just as God used Titus and the Roman Army to devastate apostate Israel, I believe God also used Hitler and the German Nazis to accomplish His purpose. Unlike "great tribulation" that came and continues until the end for the church, history shows us this time of trouble shall follow apostate Israel at different times until the end of time, but never without end, and will only end when Christ comes again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

From my perspective I view the time of trouble, even trouble(s) that have come against Jews in this world, also came/come from the wrath of God. Just as God used Titus and the Roman Army to devastate apostate Israel,

Do you think the Bible does not prophesy about that anywhere?

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are claiming things that I have not said or even believe you don’t even know what I believe

The great tribulation is on the church it was the wrath of God that was upon apostate Israel

The wrath of God was also a tribulation period for apostate Israel as there can be many tribulations periods for people but the great tribulation is only on the church

You blind Preterists have fundamentally misunderstood the Olivet Discourse. Christ was not merely speaking about "Judean Christians," ethnic Judea, or the destruction of an unholy physical temple in 70 A.D. His prophecy ultimately concerns His New Testament congregation at the end of the age when Satan is loosened after the testimony of Two Witnesses is finished.
What many fail to recognize is that after the Cross, God identifies His people as spiritual Jews (Romans 2:28-29), members of the heavenly Jerusalem (Galatians 4:26) which are in spiritually Judea, and living stones of God's spiritual temple (1 Peter 2:5). The true holy place is no longer a physical building in earthly Jerusalem, but the Church of Jesus Christ spread throughout the world.

The Great Tribulation is not primarily about unbelieving Jews in the first century. It is a period of testing and persecution that comes upon the elect as false prophets and false christs infiltrate the visible church, exactly as Christ warned (Matthew 24:24). God's people struggle to maintain their testimony amid widespread deception.

This is why Revelation speaks them as the two witnesses whose testimony is finished and who are overcome by the beast (Revelation 11:7). Their bodies lie in the great city, symbolizing the end of the faithful witnesses because in God's eyes, all Elect has been secured (Revelation 7:1-4). The visible church now becomes increasingly apostate. Woe upon her as "mother" is no longer able to nourish her children of the congregation with the truth.

Then comes the turning point. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29), God sends the Spirit of Life upon His elect, opening their eyes to recognize the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not (Mark 13:14). They discern the corruption that has overtaken the unfaithful church and obey God's command to come out from her. That is why they no longer experience the great tribulation within the congregation and they now will see the signs in the sun, moon and stars that point to the judgment of the unfaithful church!
This is precisely the message of Revelation 18:4: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins." The judgment is not merely against 70AD Jerusalem but against the apostate christian church all over the world that has become corrupted. The elect are called to separate themselves from falsehood before God's final judgment falls upon the church where many professed Christians who have not yet seal by God are going to receive the mark of the beast so that they will belong Satan. They will be as lost as the rest of the world.

The Olivet Discourse, therefore, is not a prophecy exhausted in 70 A.D. It is a warning and instruction for Christ's Church as she approaches the end of the age and awaits the visible return of her King.