The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<silly...two witnesses are two individuals>

"Witness" typically refers to a person, and the context appears to support that.

Why would you assume that when the text is contained within the most highly symbolic book in the entire Bible? The two witnesses are said to be "two olive trees" and "two candlesticks" (or lampstands). How does that fit the idea of them representing two individuals? In Revelation 1:20 candlesticks (lampstands) represent churches.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty fox suggested:

o They had to die from their mortal bodies to enter heaven.

Generally that would be true. However the Bible says:

o By faith Enoch was *translated up* so that he should *not see death*... (Hebrews 11:5)

o And Elijah [still alive] *went up by a whirlwind into heaven.*
(2Kings 2:11)

My impression is that neither Enoch nor Elijah ever died.

Exodus 33
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

[William Barton]

While referring to Enoch and everyone else of faith previously mentioned the author of Hebrews said this.

Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

Can you address this?

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<Can you address this?>
I visited Israel once, the Jews are God"s chosen people, and I honor them as such.

Why are you being so stubborn and not acknowledging what is indicated in Hebrews 11:13? Maybe you need it spelled out to you.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

When it says "these all died in faith" in Hebrews 11:13, it's talking about all of the previously mentioned people who had faith. That includes, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Noah's household, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sarah. There are no exceptions given there. So, all of those people, including Enoch, died. Enoch could not possibly have ascended to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is because Jesus said no one but Him had ever ascended to heaven (John 3:13) long after Enoch was taken and after Elijah was taken up to heaven, which must have been the first heaven (the sky). So, Enoch must have been taken to some other place on earth and Elijah must have been taken up to the first heaven (the sky) and then later came back to earth and died. That has to be the case because Hebrews 11:13 says Enoch and the rest of those who had faith that were previously mentioned all died.

Hebrews 11:13
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

They had to die from their mortal bodies to enter heaven

"Jewish" is generally understood to indicate "any/every descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob." The Jews are God's chosen people, and I honor them as such.

God's timing is not our timing. We think in terms of hours, days, months, years; God's timing is in terms of millennia (2Peter 3:8).

There was a rebellion in heaven, led by the Cherub Satan, and for that he was cast to earth, along with the angels that followed him (Ezekiel 28:14). Eventually he will get what is coming to him (Ezekiel 28:16).

The apostle Paul was once caught up to heaven *before he died,* and had the chance to see it, presumably much like earth (2Corinthians 12:2). IMO heaven is not in the sky, rather heaven is another dimension, presumably much like what we see in our own dimension.

There will be a new heavens and a new earth--no disease, no death, no more tears (Revelation 21:4).

 

[ewq1938]

Exodus 33
19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.

Jacob saw God's face and lived so only sometimes can one not see God's face.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

John 1
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

This is not seeing visually but understanding/knowing God.


Clarke:


It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son

 

[Marty fox]

Jacob saw God's face and lived so only sometimes can one not see God's face.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.





This is not seeing visually but understanding/knowing God.


Clarke:


It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son

I do see a difference here as it wasn't God in all of His glory as He was in human forum on the earth

 

[William Barton]

Why are you being so stubborn and not acknowledging what is indicated in Hebrews 11:13? Maybe you need it spelled out to you.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

When it says "these all died in faith" in Hebrews 11:13, it's talking about all of the previously mentioned people who had faith. That includes, Abel, Enoch, Noah, Noah's household, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Sarah. There are no exceptions given there. So, all of those people, including Enoch, died. Enoch could not possibly have ascended to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is because Jesus said no one but Him had ever ascended to heaven (John 3:13) long after Enoch was taken and after Elijah was taken up to heaven, which must have been the first heaven (the sky). So, Enoch must have been taken to some other place on earth and Elijah must have been taken up to the first heaven (the sky) and then later came back to earth and died. That has to be the case because Hebrews 11:13 says Enoch and the rest of those who had faith that were previously mentioned all died.

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<Why are you being so stubborn.>

It's a habit. :-(

o. Yes, the Bible says the ones who died did so in faith.

o. The Bible notes that Elijah went up in a whirlwind (2Kings 2:11).

o It also notes Enoch "was not" because God took him (Genesis 5:24).

Hence I'm thinking Elijah and Enoch never died, and rather were preserved for special service.

Keep in mind that death was never part of the plan, it was supposed to be eternal life. But eternal life in a fallen world is unthinkable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, it says the ones who died did so in faith.

The ones it was referring to that all died are all of the people of faith that had previously been mentioned, which included Enoch.

The Bible also says Elijah went up in a whirlwind (2Kings 2:11).

And what does that mean exactly? He could not have been taken up to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus was because Jesus said that no one had ascended there but Himself as of the time He spoke in John 3:13. He must have been taken up to the first heaven (the sky) at that time and then been brought to some other location on earth and then later died.

The Bible also says Enoch "was not" because God took him (Genesis 5:24).

Yes, but then what happened after that? We're not told about that. It does not say that he never died at any time after that. But, Hebrews 11:13 does indicate that he died since it says all of the people of faith previously mentioned, which included Enoch, had died.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<Can you address this?>
I visited Israel once, the Jews are God"s chosen people, and I honor them as such.

What does this have to do with Hebrews 11? Also, scripture teaches that those in the church are God's chosen people. Please read this...

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Can you see here that Paul indicates that those who belong to Christ, which includes you and me, are God's chosen people? God's chosen are His people because of faith, not nationality.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right.

 

[ewq1938]

I do see a difference here as it wasn't God in all of His glory as He was in human forum on the earth

Couldn't that be said about the incident with Moses?

 

[ewq1938]

I do see a difference here as it wasn't God in all of His glory as He was in human forum on the earth

and these:

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".

Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.



Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”

 

[Marty fox]

Couldn't that be said about the incident with Moses?

Yes but they couldn't see His face