How Confidant Are You Being Saved?
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
JimKnox
Member
I am not going to rewrite the Scriptures as you have persistently done here.
Multiple people have already tried to converse with you and you are obstinate and refuse correction.
You are stubborn and implacable.
Besides which, you can't even observe simple grammar rules of writing.
Get a dictionary: all those words are in a good one like Webster's 1828 Dictionary of the American Language.
Right here, Paul writes to the church and was confident that all were partakers of the same salvation grace Paul had from God, that they had peace and love from God our Father ( if you be born again of God, then He really is your Father) and from the Lord Jesus Christ, who always prays for us to God the Father of us all.
Think likewise on these things
The One who began the good work in you is God. God always finishes what He started, nothing He does is in vain, He accomplishes His purposes in the earth.
www.biblegateway.com
1 Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2 Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 always in my every prayer for you all making request with joy,
5 for your fellowship in the Gospel from the first day until now,
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the Day of Jesus Christ.
7 It is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as, both in my bonds and in the defense and confirmation of the Gospel, ye are all partakers of my grace.
8 For God is my record how greatly I long for you all in the compassion of Jesus Christ.
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment,
10 that ye may approve things that are excellent, and that ye may be sincere and without offense until the Day of Christ,
11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Think likewise on these things
The One who began the good work in you is God. God always finishes what He started, nothing He does is in vain, He accomplishes His purposes in the earth.
Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 1 - 21st Century King James Version
Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in my every prayer for you all...
2 Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 always in my every prayer for you all making request with joy,
5 for your fellowship in the Gospel from the first day until now,
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the Day of Jesus Christ.
7 It is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as, both in my bonds and in the defense and confirmation of the Gospel, ye are all partakers of my grace.
8 For God is my record how greatly I long for you all in the compassion of Jesus Christ.
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment,
10 that ye may approve things that are excellent, and that ye may be sincere and without offense until the Day of Christ,
11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
Paul contrast the wicked and the saved right here, which are you?
Do not fulfil the lusts of the flesh
Do not be conformed to this world cause this world is going into the fire.
Those who are saved have a high calling in Christ.
www.biblegateway.com
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you indeed is not grievous to me, but it is a safeguard for you.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the Concision.
3 For we are the Circumcision who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh—
4 though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath grounds to trust in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; according to the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness before the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted as loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but dung, that I may win Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death,
11 that if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 It is not as though I had already attained it, nor were already perfect; but I follow after, that I may apprehend that for which Christ Jesus also apprehended me.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended it, but this one thing I do: forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as would be perfect, be thus minded; and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, however much we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark those who so walk, as ye have us for an example.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even with weeping, as the enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 Their end is destruction, their God is their belly, and their glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our abiding is in Heaven, from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
Do not fulfil the lusts of the flesh
Do not be conformed to this world cause this world is going into the fire.
Those who are saved have a high calling in Christ.
Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3 - 21st Century King James Version
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you indeed is not grievous to me, but it is a safeguard for you. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the Concision. For we are the Circumcision who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and...
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you indeed is not grievous to me, but it is a safeguard for you.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the Concision.
3 For we are the Circumcision who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh—
4 though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath grounds to trust in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; according to the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness before the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted as loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but dung, that I may win Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death,
11 that if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 It is not as though I had already attained it, nor were already perfect; but I follow after, that I may apprehend that for which Christ Jesus also apprehended me.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended it, but this one thing I do: forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as would be perfect, be thus minded; and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, however much we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark those who so walk, as ye have us for an example.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even with weeping, as the enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 Their end is destruction, their God is their belly, and their glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our abiding is in Heaven, from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
I am 100% sure that I belong to Jesus. However, I recognize that there are many who are also 100% sure but belong to some cult with damnable heresies. Recognition of that causes me to understand that I can also be deceived even if I am sure. Paul mentioned the TERROR of the Lord...this is ignored by many
2 Co 5:10-11
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men...
A humble hope is nothing to be scoffed at.
just cos I don't accept your tradition does not make me obstinate
you can ask me anything
thks
is salvation grace a one time thing?Right here, Paul writes to the church and was confident that all were partakers of the same salvation grace Paul had from God, that they had peace and love from God our Father ( if you be born again of God, then He really is your Father) and from the Lord Jesus Christ, who always prays for us to God the Father of us all.
Think likewise on these things
The One who began the good work in you is God. God always finishes what He started, nothing He does is in vain, He accomplishes His purposes in the earth.
1 Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 1 - 21st Century King James Version
Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in my every prayer for you all...
2 Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 always in my every prayer for you all making request with joy,
5 for your fellowship in the Gospel from the first day until now,
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the Day of Jesus Christ.
7 It is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as, both in my bonds and in the defense and confirmation of the Gospel, ye are all partakers of my grace.
8 For God is my record how greatly I long for you all in the compassion of Jesus Christ.
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment,
10 that ye may approve things that are excellent, and that ye may be sincere and without offense until the Day of Christ,
11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
thks
what is the purpose of our being created?Right here, Paul writes to the church and was confident that all were partakers of the same salvation grace Paul had from God, that they had peace and love from God our Father ( if you be born again of God, then He really is your Father) and from the Lord Jesus Christ, who always prays for us to God the Father of us all.
Think likewise on these things
The One who began the good work in you is God. God always finishes what He started, nothing He does is in vain, He accomplishes His purposes in the earth.
1 Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 1 - 21st Century King James Version
Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in my every prayer for you all...
2 Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 always in my every prayer for you all making request with joy,
5 for your fellowship in the Gospel from the first day until now,
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the Day of Jesus Christ.
7 It is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as, both in my bonds and in the defense and confirmation of the Gospel, ye are all partakers of my grace.
8 For God is my record how greatly I long for you all in the compassion of Jesus Christ.
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment,
10 that ye may approve things that are excellent, and that ye may be sincere and without offense until the Day of Christ,
11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
thks
how are we saved?Paul contrast the wicked and the saved right here, which are you?
Do not fulfil the lusts of the flesh
Do not be conformed to this world cause this world is going into the fire.
Those who are saved have a high calling in Christ.
Bible Gateway passage: Philippians 3 - 21st Century King James Version
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you indeed is not grievous to me, but it is a safeguard for you. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the Concision. For we are the Circumcision who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and...
Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you indeed is not grievous to me, but it is a safeguard for you.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the Concision.
3 For we are the Circumcision who worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh—
4 though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath grounds to trust in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; according to the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; as to the righteousness before the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted as loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but dung, that I may win Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death,
11 that if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 It is not as though I had already attained it, nor were already perfect; but I follow after, that I may apprehend that for which Christ Jesus also apprehended me.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended it, but this one thing I do: forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as would be perfect, be thus minded; and if in anything ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, however much we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark those who so walk, as ye have us for an example.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often and now tell you even with weeping, as the enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 Their end is destruction, their God is their belly, and their glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20 For our abiding is in Heaven, from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21 who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.
is it possible that to be saved and fulfill the deeds of the flesh?
thks
thats the claim of the tv evangelists you accepted Christ or gave your heart to Christ what ever is the popular phrase these days, then they you are a new creation, passed from death to life etc. and quote "there is nothing more you need to do"!
some say nothing more you can do, one guy on the John Ack show said we are saved and our behavior CANNOT affect our salvation in any way!
thks
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2 - 21st Century King James Version
And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. Among these also we all had our manner of living...
2 wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.
3 Among these also we all had our manner of living in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love wherewith He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved),
6 and hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Believing All Of God's Word And Having FULL Assurance Of It is not humbling Toward God?
Leaving those cults And humbly studying God's Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided Should Bring The Following, eh?:
"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of
the Full Assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of The Mystery of God,
and of the Father, and of Christ;" (Colossians 2:2 AV)
--------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
Yes, leaving the teachings of groups that teach that the words of Jesus have no meaning for us today.
I had to leave a hedonist cult that assured me of my salvation, based on Romans 10:9, but diminished the words of Jesus, by saying the New Testament began with Acts.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
False humility doesn't understand honesty. It cobbles an image that anyone with an ounce of insight can see through.
How is it seen? By statements volunteered, by the type of questions asked, by the observation of various responses.
False humility equates to hypocrisy, projection and disabled vision. It is only the hypocrite who thinks he/ she does a good job at his/ her image.
Jesus said, 'a time is coming when those who kill you will think they are offering God service'.
- Feb 14, 2021
- 21,206
- 9,226
- 113
- 57
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
I never heard anyone suggest such a thing! No Bible I've ever seen begins the NT with Acts. Just out of curiosity, where did they believe the Gospels fit in, the OT?
bdavidc
Well-Known Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 1,215
- 1,226
- 113
- 67
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
I will answer your questions, but we cannot take verses that speak about abiding, fruit, obedience, hope, and future glory, and use them to cancel the plain words of Christ.
Jesus said:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” ~John 5:24.
That is not temporary life. That is not probation. Jesus says the believer has everlasting life now, shall not come into condemnation, and has passed from death unto life.
On John 15, no, I do not believe a truly saved man loses salvation and is later burned in the fire. That would make Jesus contradict Himself in John 6 and John 10. Jesus said, “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” ~John 6:39. He also said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” ~John 10:28.
So John 15 must be read with those verses, not against them. The fruitless branch is not a saved man who had eternal life and then lost it. It is a branch with outward connection and no fruit, showing no true life. Judas is the clearest example in the same Gospel. He was close to Christ outwardly, but Jesus said, “ye are clean, but not all” because He knew who would betray Him ~John 13:10-11. John later gives the principle plainly: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us” ~1 John 2:19.
How do we abide in Christ? We continue in Him by faith, His Word, and obedience that flows from real life. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed” ~John 8:31. John also says, “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning” ~1 John 2:24. And when John defines God’s commandment, he does not reduce it to law-keeping as the basis of salvation. He says, “And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment” ~1 John 3:23.
Obedience matters. Fruit matters. But fruit is evidence of life, not the purchase price of life.
On John 10:10, abundant life does not mean “eternal salvation plus extra eternal salvation.” Eternal life is not measured like that. Jesus defines eternal life in John 17:3: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” The life Christ gives is real life in fellowship with God, and that life has fullness in Christ. But the believer already has eternal life according to John 5:24 and 1 John 5:11-13.
On Matthew 7:14, the narrow way leads unto life, but that does not mean the believer does not possess eternal life now. Scripture speaks of salvation in more than one way. We have been saved, we are being kept, and we will be brought into the final fullness of salvation at the resurrection. Peter says believers are “begotten again unto a lively hope” and have an inheritance “reserved in heaven,” while they are “kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” ~1 Peter 1:3-5. That is not insecurity. That is God keeping His own until the end.
On Mark 10:30, when Jesus says “in the world to come eternal life,” He is speaking of the future fullness of what belongs to the believer. That does not erase the present possession of eternal life. John says, “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son” ~1 John 5:11. Then he says, “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life” ~1 John 5:13.
That is present possession, not maybe later if we do enough.
On Matthew 25:46 and Romans 2:7, yes, the righteous enter life eternal, and those who continue in well doing seek glory and immortality. But Romans 2 cannot be used to overthrow Romans 3 and Romans 4. Paul goes on to say, “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” ~Romans 3:20. Then he says, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.
So Romans 2 does not teach that we earn eternal life by works. It shows that God’s judgment is righteous and that a changed life matters. But Romans 3 and 4 make clear that justification is not by works. Works reveal what a man is. They do not purchase eternal life.
On hope, you are treating hope like uncertainty. Biblical hope is not “maybe I will make it.” Biblical hope is confident expectation based on God’s promise. Titus 1:2 says, “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.” That hope rests on the promise of God who cannot lie, not on my ability to keep myself saved.
The Holy Spirit does not oppose eternal security. He seals the believer. Paul says, “after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession” ~Ephesians 1:13-14. Again, he says, “grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption” ~Ephesians 4:30.
That is the point. Hope does not fight against security. Hope rests on God’s promise. The Spirit of promise does not make salvation uncertain. He is the earnest, the guarantee, until the day of redemption.
So no, eternal security does not oppose hope. It gives hope its foundation. My hope is not in my grip on Christ. My hope is in Christ’s grip on me.
bdavidc
Well-Known Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 1,215
- 1,226
- 113
- 67
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
That is still making eternal salvation depend on being “found faithful” as the condition for receiving it. That is the problem.
Scripture does not say eternal life is given after death to those who proved faithful enough. Scripture says, “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” ~Romans 6:23. It also says, “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” ~John 5:24.
That is present possession. Jesus did not say he might have it later if he is found faithful enough. He said he has everlasting life now and shall not come into condemnation.
Romans 2:7 cannot be used to overthrow Romans 3 and Romans 4. In Romans 2, Paul is showing the righteous judgment of God. But by Romans 3, he has shut everyone’s mouth and says, “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight” ~Romans 3:20. Then he says plainly, “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” ~Romans 4:5.
So Romans 2 does not teach that eternal life is earned by patient continuance in well doing. If that were the case, Romans 4:5 would be false. The well doing is the evidence of grace, not the payment for grace.
Hebrews 10:36 also does not teach salvation by being faithful enough. The same passage says, “Now the just shall live by faith” ~Hebrews 10:38. Then it says, “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul” ~Hebrews 10:39.
The issue is faith. True faith endures because God keeps His own. That is why Peter says believers “are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” ~1 Peter 1:5.
You are mixing the evidence of salvation with the ground of salvation. Faithfulness matters, but faithfulness is not the basis of our justification. Christ is. His righteousness is. His blood is. His finished work is.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works” ~Ephesians 2:8-10.
Good works follow salvation. They do not purchase it, finish it, or keep God obligated to save us.
My confidence is not that I will be found faithful enough to earn eternal salvation. My confidence is that Christ saves His sheep, gives them eternal life, and says, “they shall never perish” ~John 10:28.
bdavidc
Well-Known Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 1,215
- 1,226
- 113
- 67
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
I agree that grace causes perseverance. That is exactly my point.
If grace causes perseverance, then perseverance is the fruit of grace, not the condition that earns eternal salvation at the end. God’s grace does not merely give us a chance to save ourselves. Grace saves, changes, keeps, and finishes what God began.
Paul said, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ” ~Philippians 1:6.
Peter said believers “are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” ~1 Peter 1:5.
So yes, true grace produces perseverance. But that does not mean eternal life is a wage paid after we prove ourselves faithful enough. Scripture still says, “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” ~Romans 6:23.
That is the difference. Perseverance is evidence that grace is real. It is not the price we pay to keep eternal life.
bdavidc
Well-Known Member
- Mar 31, 2025
- 1,215
- 1,226
- 113
- 67
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
No twisting is needed. The problem is that you did not prove what you claimed.
Philippians 4:3 says there were faithful fellow laborers whose names were in the book of life. I believe that. But that verse does not say a born again believer can be justified, made a new creation, passed from death unto life, sealed by the Spirit, and then still be eternally lost. You are adding that part.
Revelation 22:19 is a warning against tampering with the words of the prophecy of Revelation. I believe that warning. “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part...” That is serious. But again, the verse does not say Christ’s sheep can perish. It does not say a man who has been born of God can be unborn. It does not say the sealed believer becomes unsealed. It does not say the one who has passed from death unto life passes back into death.
Jesus said, “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” ~John 5:24.
Jesus also said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” ~John 10:28.
Your interpretation of Revelation 22:19 would make Jesus wrong. I am not going there.
Revelation itself makes a distinction between the saved and the lost. “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” ~Revelation 20:15. Then it says nothing unclean enters the holy city, “but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life” ~Revelation 21:27.
The people who enter are written in the Lamb’s book of life. The people cast into the lake of fire are not found written there. That does not prove saved people become lost. It proves only those written in the book enter, and those not found written are judged.
Revelation 22:19 is not a loophole that cancels John 5:24, John 10:28, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, Philippians 1:6, and 1 Peter 1:5.
If a man corrupts the Word of God, takes away from it, and shows contempt for the words of Christ, I would not comfort him with assurance. I would tell him to repent. But I will not use that warning to deny Christ’s promise to His sheep.
You have to prove your claim from the text. You have to show where Scripture says a truly born again believer, justified by faith, sealed by the Spirit, passed from death unto life, can still end up condemned.
Revelation 22:19 does not say that.
Jesus said His sheep shall never perish. I believe Him.
Similar threads
