Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[Truth7t7]

Obviously, you don't think Revelation is chronological from start to finish, the fact you interpret ch 19 and 20 in the manner you do.

Yes the book of Revelation sees many parallel teachings of the same event, it's not chronological as dispensationalism falsely teaches

In your mind, why can there be parallels between ch 19 and 20 but there can't be any parallels between the first 6 seals and the 7 trumpets? How do you fail to connect the 6th seal with that of Matthew 24:29? As of that verse in Matthew 24, how can we be in the time of trumpets 1-7 between verse 29 and 30 in Matthew 24?

That there is a gap of 7 trumpets between verse 29 and 30

I Strongly Disagree, scripture clearly teaches after the 7th seal is opened, the angels are given the 7 Trumps, simple, clear, easy to understand

where we already know, for example, that trumpet 6 involves at least 3.5 years, since the 2Ws are testifying during the 6th trumpet. And that's not even taking the 42 month reign of the beast into consideration since some of us conclude the 2Ws are allotted their 3.5 years. Then when that is finished, the beast is allotted it's 3.5 years. Per this scenario that would mean there is at least 7 years between Matthew 24:29 and verse 30 if all 7 trumpets are post the 6th seal.

The two witnesses and the beast will be on this earth at the very same time, this time is seen in parallel not chronological, as Rev Chapter 11 clearly teaches, the beast kills the two witnesses, they lay dead for 3.5 days in Jerusalem Rev 11:7-8, then they're raised to heaven, the same hour the Great earthquake, 2nd woe is past Rev 11:11-14 and the 3rd woe comes quickly in the 7th Trump sounding Rev 11:15 and the final judgement takes place Rev 11:18 (The End)

Conclusion: the two witnesses are on this earth for the very same time frame of 3.5 years, not 7 years as dispensationaism falsely teaches

And clearly, Matthew 24:29 is meaning the 6th seal in Revelation 6. And clearly, both, the time of the 2Ws and the time of the beast, are involving the time of the 6th trumpet. Granted, maybe the allotted time for the 2Ws and the beast is not meaning the literal amount specified. That maybe it's even meaning more than the amount specified. Which would then make this gap this causes between verse 29 and 30 even greater if there is a gap of 7 trumpets between verse 29 and 30 in Matthew 24.. You can't argue one way in Revelation then in an entirely different manner in Matthew 24. Either the 7 trumpets fit during the first 6 seals or they fit after. You can't have it both ways.

I'm pondering the response to your questions and claims above, a closer look and study, I'll get back to this one, going out to eat

 

[Davidpt]

because the 7 angels are not given the 7 trumpets until the 7th seal is opened.

1When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them

Do you agree or disagree that the sixth seal in Revelation 6 is describing the same time period and events as Matthew 24:29? I'm not asking how you interpret the sixth seal itself. That isn't the issue here. The only question is whether you believe those passages are parallel.

If you do believe they are parallel, then how much time do you think elapses between Matthew 24:29 and 24:30? In your view, would it be reasonable for years to pass between those two verses? If you don't believe Revelation 6 and the 6th seal and Matthew 24:29 are parallel, then these questions are moot, obviously.

Now consider Revelation 11:3:

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

From the trumpet judgments, it appears that the period from the first trumpet to the seventh trumpet spans at least the 1,260 days associated with the ministry of the two witnesses. Whether those 1,260 days are literal or symbolic is a separate question. Even if they are symbolic, they still represent an extended period of time rather than an immediate transition.

So if the sixth trumpet comes before the seventh trumpet, and if the sixth seal corresponds to Matthew 24:29, then placing the seventh trumpet after the opening of the seventh seal appears to require inserting at least 3½ years---and perhaps much longer if the time periods are symbolic---between Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:30.

How do you reconcile that with the apparent flow of Matthew 24:29-30, where verse 30 seems to follow immediately after verse 29?

Here is where I see a structural problem with a strictly sequential view (Seals 1-6, then Trumpets 1-7). Thus I'm somewhat repeating myself here.

If the 6th Seal = Matthew 24:29, and one places the entire Trumpet sequence after the 6th seal in the book of Revelation, one is then forced to insert a minimum of 3.5 years between Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:30. Furthermore, if the months mentioned in Revelation are symbolic of longer periods, or if we have to factor in the reign of the beast, that gap could be pushed even longer.

Does it seem exegetically sound to you to insert a multi-year gap containing the entire Trumpet series plus the beast's reign between two consecutive verses in Matthew 24?

 

[ewq1938]

My position is that the seventh trumpet sounds during the sixth seal.

How could any trumpet sound before the angels are given the trumpets? The trumpets are not given to the angels until after the 7th seal is opened.

 

[Davidpt]

How could any trumpet sound before the angels are given the trumpets? The trumpets are not given to the angels until after the 7th seal is opened.

That objection assumes Revelation is meant to be read as a strictly chronological sequence. My position is that it is not.

The fact that John sees the angels receive the trumpets after the seventh seal is opened only tells us the order in which he is shown the visions. It does not necessarily establish the chronological order of every event being described. The opening of the seventh seal introduces the trumpet cycle, but that does not require the trumpet events to occur only after everything associated with the sixth seal has concluded.

Throughout Revelation, John frequently revisits the same period from different perspectives rather than presenting one uninterrupted timeline.

For example, Revelation 6:12–17, at the sixth seal, describes cosmic disturbances, the Day of God's wrath, and people hiding because the great day of His wrath has come. That reads like the consummation of the age.

Then, instead of simply moving forward chronologically, Revelation 7 pauses to show the sealing of the 144,000 and the great multitude before the seventh seal is opened. That interlude itself suggests John is not always moving in a straight chronological line.

Likewise, the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18 announces that the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, speaks of the time for judging the dead, rewarding the saints, and God's wrath. Those are also end of the age events.

Because both the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet describe the consummation, I understand them as overlapping descriptions of the same period rather than two events separated by a long stretch of time. The sequence of John's visions is not necessarily identical to the chronology of the events they depict.

So I am not arguing that the seventh trumpet was literally given to the angel before the seventh seal was opened. I am arguing that the seventh trumpet sounds within the time frame of the sixth seal because the trumpet cycle recapitulates events already encompassed by the sixth seal. The objection only works if one first assumes Revelation is strictly sequential.

I would also ask this---if the sixth seal already depicts the DOTL and humanity standing before God's wrath (Revelation 6:12-17), what chronological events remain before the seventh trumpet reaches the time of judging the dead, rewarding the saints, and establishing Christ's kingdom (Revelation 11:15-18)? To me, the more natural explanation is that both passages are describing the same climactic reality from different visionary perspectives.

TBH, I'm having trouble understanding your objection because I thought we already agreed that the sixth seal depicts the DOTL and the Second Coming.

If that's your position, then we're already at the consummation in Revelation 6:12-17. So how does the fact that John later sees angels receiving trumpets after the seventh seal prove that the seventh trumpet cannot describe events that overlap the sixth seal?

Your objection seems to assume that the order in which John is shown the visions is identical to the chronological order of the events they portray. But that is precisely the point under debate. I don't read Revelation as a strictly sequential narrative throughout.

So if we both agree that the sixth seal is the DOTL and the Second Coming, then the real question isn't when the angels received the trumpets. The real question is why the seventh trumpet also describes the establishment of Christ's kingdom, the judgment of the dead, the rewarding of the saints, and God's wrath. Those are consummation events. Why should I conclude they occur after the consummation already depicted at the sixth seal, rather than recognizing them as another portrayal of the same climactic events?

 

[claninja]

Revelation 19:20 represents (The End) and is a "Parallel Teaching" of Daniel 7:8-11 & Revelation 20:11-15 (The End), the books will be opened and the final judgment to the lake of fire will take place "One Time" (The End)

Daniel's (Little Horn/The Beast/The Antichrist),The Second Coming And Final Judgement (The End) The Books Were Opened Final Judgement Revelation 19:19-20, Revelation 20:11-15

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Second Coming, Final Judgement, Daniel 7:8-11, Revelation 19:19-20, Revelation 20:11-15

Revelation 19:19-20KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Final Judgement, (The End)

Revelation 20:11-15KJV
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again, my argument is about determining the chronology of events as presented by the book revelation BEFORE applying external framework or theological interpretation.

Your attempt to sequence revelation by fitting it with your interpretation of Daniel (external framework), doesn’t really address my argument.

Simply pointing out that Daniel 7 and Revelation 20:11-15 both mention judgment and books being opened does not demonstrate that Revelation 20 begins a new recapitulation. It only shows thematic similarity. (Notice the thematic similarity of the beast being destroyed and the saints being given the kingdom in Daniel 7 to that of the beast being thrown into the LOF and the saints, that were killed by the beast, being raised from death to reign with Christ for 1000 years in revelation 19:20-20:4)

In fact, Revelation 20 contains a chronological indicator that argues the opposite:

Revelation 19:20: The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10: Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are (literally, “where the beast and the false prophet,” with the verb implied in Greek).

John doesn’t reintroduce the beast or describe them being judged again. He assumes they are already there. That naturally reads as a continuation of the previous narrative from chapter 19.

If Revelation 20 were a completely new retelling of the same events, why doesn’t Satan get cast into the lake of fire at the same time as the beast, as in Daniel 7? Instead, Revelation deliberately separates these events:

1. Beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire (19:20).
2. Satan bound (20:1-3).
3. Thousand years.
4. Satan released.
5. Satan cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are (20:10).
6. Great White Throne judgment (20:11-15).

That is a coherent chronological sequence unless you can demonstrate from the text itself where the timeline resets?

 

[claninja]

I find it absolutely interesting that one can read it in that manner and not have to be Premil in order to do so. Or maybe you are Postmil? And if so, I'm not as familiar with Postmil as I am with Amil. For all I know, maybe Postmil, not Amil nor Premil, is the solution? Except I don't know enough about the Postmil view in order to determine if that might be a valid solution or not.

But since @WPM is here, I seem to recall him saying years ago when I knew him on another forum, that Postmil has already been dealt with, thus debunked, and that the same needs to happen with Premil. Or something along those lines. If nothing else, it shows that Postmil has already been explored extensively and that it's not the solution.

Well, revelation is first century apocalyptic literature. You can read the apocalyptic text in its literal chronological sequence, but that doesn’t mean it is required to be “interpreted” in the exact same literal chronological sequence.

 

[claninja]

Do you agree or disagree that the sixth seal in Revelation 6 is describing the same time period and events as Matthew 24:29? I'm not asking how you interpret the sixth seal itself. That isn't the issue here. The only question is whether you believe those passages are parallel.

If you do believe they are parallel, then how much time do you think elapses between Matthew 24:29 and 24:30? In your view, would it be reasonable for years to pass between those two verses? If you don't believe Revelation 6 and the 6th seal and Matthew 24:29 are parallel, then these questions are moot, obviously.

Now consider Revelation 11:3:

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

From the trumpet judgments, it appears that the period from the first trumpet to the seventh trumpet spans at least the 1,260 days associated with the ministry of the two witnesses. Whether those 1,260 days are literal or symbolic is a separate question. Even if they are symbolic, they still represent an extended period of time rather than an immediate transition.

So if the sixth trumpet comes before the seventh trumpet, and if the sixth seal corresponds to Matthew 24:29, then placing the seventh trumpet after the opening of the seventh seal appears to require inserting at least 3½ years---and perhaps much longer if the time periods are symbolic---between Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:30.

How do you reconcile that with the apparent flow of Matthew 24:29-30, where verse 30 seems to follow immediately after verse 29?

Here is where I see a structural problem with a strictly sequential view (Seals 1-6, then Trumpets 1-7). Thus I'm somewhat repeating myself here.

If the 6th Seal = Matthew 24:29, and one places the entire Trumpet sequence after the 6th seal in the book of Revelation, one is then forced to insert a minimum of 3.5 years between Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:30. Furthermore, if the months mentioned in Revelation are symbolic of longer periods, or if we have to factor in the reign of the beast, that gap could be pushed even longer.

Does it seem exegetically sound to you to insert a multi-year gap containing the entire Trumpet series plus the beast's reign between two consecutive verses in Matthew 24?

I think it could be alluding to it, yea. But remember, Revelation is apocalyptic literature. You can read its chronology in a literal way, but you don’t have to interpret its chronology as literal.

Attempting to shoe horn its literal chronology into the eschatological chronology provided by the gospels and epistles is like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, you are never going to be able to do it, as like 90% of its chronology doesn’t match up with what Jesus, Peter, James, John, or Paul taught.

 

[Davidpt]

I think it could be alluding to it, yea. But remember, Revelation is apocalyptic literature. You can read its chronology in a literal way, but you don’t have to interpret its chronology as literal.

Attempting to shoe horn its literal chronology into the eschatological chronology provided by the gospels and epistles is like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, you are never going to be able to do it, as like 90% of its chronology doesn’t match up with what Jesus, Peter, James, John, or Paul taught.

I don't find that response compelling because it seems to shift the issue from exegesis to a general statement about apocalyptic literature.

Whether Revelation's chronology is strictly sequential is precisely what's under debate. Simply saying that Revelation is apocalyptic and therefore its chronology need not be literal doesn't answer the specific problem I raised.

Likewise, saying that 90% of its chronology doesn't match what Jesus, Peter, James, John, or Paul taught assumes a particular interpretation of those passages. Someone with a different understanding of the Olivet Discourse or the New Testament's eschatology could just as easily conclude that they do align.

My question is much narrower. If you believe the sixth seal corresponds to Matthew 24:29, and if you also place the trumpet judgments after the sixth seal, how do you avoid inserting an extended period of time between Matthew 24:29 and 24:30, where Jesus says, Immediately after the tribulation of those days... and then, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man...?

Appealing to the symbolic nature of Revelation doesn't by itself resolve that question. The issue is whether your proposed sequence requires a substantial chronological gap between two verses that, on the face of the text, read as though one event follows immediately after the other.

 

[claninja]

I don't find that response compelling because it seems to shift the issue from exegesis to a general statement about apocalyptic literature.

Whether Revelation's chronology is strictly sequential is precisely what's under debate. Simply saying that Revelation is apocalyptic and therefore its chronology need not be literal doesn't answer the specific problem I raised.

Likewise, saying that 90% of its chronology doesn't match what Jesus, Peter, James, John, or Paul taught assumes a particular interpretation of those passages. Someone with a different understanding of the Olivet Discourse or the New Testament's eschatology could just as easily conclude that they do align.

My question is much narrower. If you believe the sixth seal corresponds to Matthew 24:29, and if you also place the trumpet judgments after the sixth seal, how do you avoid inserting an extended period of time between Matthew 24:29 and 24:30, where Jesus says, Immediately after the tribulation of those days... and then, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man...?

Appealing to the symbolic nature of Revelation doesn't by itself resolve that question. The issue is whether your proposed sequence requires a substantial chronological gap between two verses that, on the face of the text, read as though one event follows immediately after the other.

Understanding a passage’s literary genre is an important part of proper exegesis, not a shift. Revelation is classified as “apocalyptic”. That is important for proper exegesis.

Additionally, Your question has nothing to do my premise - how do we determine when a vision in revelation is a recapitulation or chronologically following what preceded it, PRIOR to applying external framework?

Applying Matthew 24:29 to revelation 6 is applying an external framework to determine whether revelation 8:2 is recapitulation or a chronological event that follows 8:1. That doesn’t address my premise. It’s like when Amils apply the binding of the strong man from Matthew to revelation 20:1 in attempt to prove recapitulation of chapter 20.

I’m simply asking how you determine chronology vs recapitulation PRIOR to applying external framework.

I would argue pre-deciding the structural flow of Revelation (recapitulation vs chronology) by using an external framework without first deriving that structure from Revelation itself, would be improper exegesis.

 

[Truth7t7]

:

1. Beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire (19:20).
2. Satan bound (20:1-3).
3. Thousand years.
4. Satan released.
5. Satan cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are (20:10).
6. Great White Throne judgment (20:11-15).

That is a coherent chronological sequence unless you can demonstrate from the text itself where the timeline resets?

(The Beast/Antichrist) A future human Jewish man will be revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God-Messiah, this will start the 3.5 year tribulation

The two witnesses of Rev chap 11 will bring all plagues upon (The Beast) and world as they will during this 3.5 year period, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt takes place Rev 16:1-11, Rev 11:6 All plagues as often as they will

Rev Chapter 11 gives the best detailed explanation of the two prophets returned

When their 3.5 years are completed in Gods plagues on the world The Beast will kill them, they will lay dead in Jerusalems street for 3.5 days, after this time God will raise them to heaven before the world watching, the same hour the Great world earthquake as the 2nd woe passes, the 3rd woe in the 7th Trump takes place Rev 11:15 in the Lord's 2nd coming in fire and final judgement dissolving this earth by fire × Peter 3:10 (The End) eternity begins in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem fir the righteous saved, the lake of fire for the wicked unsaved

 

[grafted branch]

I’m simply asking how you determine chronology vs recapitulation PRIOR to applying external framework.

I’ve been following along here, and that’s an interesting question. What about applying death as the end of a chronological sequence and/or life as the beginning of a new sequence?

In Revelation 4 verse 10 we have Him that sat on the throne lives forever and ever, life. Rev 6, end of sixth seal is death. Rev 7 shows life. Rev 8 starts with the seventh seal but it’s just silence, neither death nor life. The trumpets end in Rev 11 with vs 18 having life and death . Rev 12 starts with the woman giving birth, life then in Rev 14 we have the harvest with blood coming out of the wine press, death. Rev 17 has the whore burned with fire in vs 16, death. Rev 18 has the Babylon destroyed, death. Rev 19 has the remnant slain with the sword. Rev 20 has death after the millennium and death again after the judgment (second death). Rev 21 starts with New Jerusalem, which could be viewed as new life.

Maybe we could have Rev 4 to 6 as one sequence, Rev 7 to 11 the second, Rev 12 to Rev 14 the third, Rev 15 to 17 the fourth, Rev 18 the fifth, Rev 19 the sixth, Rev 20 the seventh, Rev 21 the eighth? (This is a rough draft, probably would need to be adjusted if it’s a possibility).

 

[claninja]

Likewise, saying that 90% of its chronology doesn't match what Jesus, Peter, James, John, or Paul taught assumes a particular interpretation of those passages. Someone with a different understanding of the Olivet Discourse or the New Testament's eschatology could just as easily conclude that they do align.

Since the gospels and epistles are silent on any order of “seals”, “trumpets”, “vials”, “beasts”, “harlots”, “1000 year reigns”, etc.. any such attempt to fit these events would simply seem like guesswork.

Your argument seems to be that revelation 8:2 is a recapitulation, and does not necessarily chronologically follow 8:1. You argued previously that if 8:2 does follow chronologically, it creates a structural problem of the 6th seal = Matthew 24:29.

This is precisely my entire point.

Revelation’s chronological flow doesn’t fit with 90 % of the chronological flow of the eschatology as presented by the gospels or epistles. You literally just demonstrated this by your need to recapitulate 8:2 in order to fit the gospels chronology, despite revelation 8 having zero contextual clues that recapitulation is happening in 8:2.

Again, how do you know 8:2 is a recapitulation PRIOR to any external framework?

 

[claninja]

(The Beast/Antichrist) A future human Jewish man will be revealed in Jerusalem proclaiming to be God-Messiah, this will start the 3.5 year tribulation

The two witnesses of Rev chap 11 will bring all plagues upon (The Beast) and world as they will during this 3.5 year period, a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt takes place Rev 16:1-11, Rev 11:6 All plagues as often as they will

Rev Chapter 11 gives the best detailed explanation of the two prophets returned

When their 3.5 years are completed in Gods plagues on the world The Beast will kill them, they will lay dead in Jerusalems street for 3.5 days, after this time God will raise them to heaven before the world watching, the same hour the Great world earthquake as the 2nd woe passes, the 3rd woe in the 7th Trump takes place Rev 11:15 in the Lord's 2nd coming in fire and final judgement dissolving this earth by fire × Peter 3:10 (The End) eternity begins in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem fir the righteous saved, the lake of fire for the wicked unsaved

This doesn’t address whether revelation 20 starts a recapitulation or if it’s the chronological event after chapter 19.

 

[claninja]

I’ve been following along here, and that’s an interesting question. What about applying death as the end of a chronological sequence and/or life as the beginning of a new sequence?

In Revelation 4 verse 10 we have Him that sat on the throne lives forever and ever, life. Rev 6, end of sixth seal is death. Rev 7 shows life. Rev 8 starts with the seventh seal but it’s just silence, neither death nor life. The trumpets end in Rev 11 with vs 18 having life and death . Rev 12 starts with the woman giving birth, life then in Rev 14 we have the harvest with blood coming out of the wine press, death. Rev 17 has the whore burned with fire in vs 16, death. Rev 18 has the Babylon destroyed, death. Rev 19 has the remnant slain with the sword. Rev 20 has death after the millennium and death again after the judgment (second death). Rev 21 starts with New Jerusalem, which could be viewed as new life.

Maybe we could have Rev 4 to 6 as one sequence, Rev 7 to 11 the second, Rev 12 to Rev 14 the third, Rev 15 to 17 the fourth, Rev 18 the fifth, Rev 19 the sixth, Rev 20 the seventh, Rev 21 the eighth? (This is a rough draft, probably would need to be adjusted if it’s a possibility).

This is an interesting way to look at it - life and death cycles. I’ll have to look more into it.

Right now, my best guesswork is on 2 main anchor points - judgement of the dead in revelation 11 and 20. Maybe there are smaller ones within those chapters?