Using the term "rapture" incorrectly

[ewq1938]

No, the two terms does not mean two events.

Incorrect. It proves they are two separate events. One means to come back to life, and one means to be moved from one place to other. The two events happen very close in time, but one happens and is compleyted before the other event even starts.

 

[ewq1938]

You can depart physically or spiritually.

And morally, which is what the Greek word Apostasia means.

 

[ewq1938]

Where is the resurrected body when it is given life?
In heaven...in the air...on earth?

Likely in heaven since Paul said the body was in heaven already and that was in the first century.

 

[amigo de christo]

besides the bible proclaiming a pre-trib rapture....one of the reasons I don't believe in a post-trib rapture is because of the way they mock christians who understand the rapture is pre-trib.

sorry bud , but i have watched both sides debate this and often they BOTH mock the other .
so that one wont work .

 

[Douggg]

ncorrect. It proves they are two separate events. One means to come back to life, and one means to be moved from one place to other. The two events happen very close in time, but one happens and is compleyted before the other event even starts.

The resurrected in Christ and the raptured in Christ are both removed from earth. Called up to Jesus as He circles the earth.

 

[Truth7t7]

Daniel 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.


Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations : and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I'm pretty certain that Luke 21:24 is not involving the 70 year Babylon captivity. It's like the saying---what goes up must come down. If one goes into captivity they have to come out of captivity eventually, when it is referring to the house of Israel. There is not one single time in their entire history that when they went into captivity that eventually they were not freed from captivity and began returning to their own land. Therefore, Luke 21:24 has to follow this same pattern.

The Book Of Ezekiel And The Word "Captivity" Is The Subject, Good Try No Cigar

 

[ewq1938]

The resurrected in Christ and the raptured in Christ are both removed from earth.

So? The raptured living saints are not resurrected because they don't die. Clearly the two events are two separate events even IF the resurrected dead also get raptured.

 

[Douggg]

So? The raptured living saints are not resurrected because they don't die. Clearly the two events are two separate events even IF the resurrected dead also get raptured.

The resurrected in Christ and the raptured in Christ are both removed from earth at the same time. One event.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The resurrected in Christ and the raptured in Christ are both removed from earth at the same time. One event.

I'm sorry, but this discussion is just ridiculous. You're both right in different senses, depending on how you look at it. In one sense, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and you could see that as its own event even though it occurs right before the resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain are caught up to meet Christ in the air (raptured), which could be seen as another event in the sense that it's a separate thing that happens from the resurrection of the dead in Christ. But, since both things will occur in rapid succession, they can both be seen as part of one event along with the descent of Christ from heaven. You both agree that both things (resurrection and rapture) will happen at generally the same time with maybe a moment or a second in between, so what difference does it make whether they are called one or two events? It doesn't.

 

[CrowCross]

sorry bud , but i have watched both sides debate this and often they BOTH mock the other .
so that one wont work .

It works...I've seen plenty of pod-cast where they mock christians for believing in the "Darby" concept.

 

[CrowCross]

Likely in heaven since Paul said the body was in heaven already and that was in the first century.

Where?

 

[ewq1938]

The resurrected in Christ and the raptured in Christ are both removed from earth at the same time. One event.

Yes, the rapture is ONE EVENT but the rapture is a different event than the resurrection. Obviously the resurrected resurrect in the resurrection BEFORE the rapture event happens.

Resurrection is ONE EVENT.
Rapture is ONE EVENT that happens only when the resurretion event is completed.

 

[ewq1938]

Where?

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved human's body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.

 

[CrowCross]

This speaks of when a saved human's body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection.

Does this mean there was a nailed scar body with a pierced side waiting for Jesus in heaven when He was in the tomb?

 

[ewq1938]

Does this mean there was a nailed scar body with a pierced side waiting for Jesus in heaven when He was in the tomb?

No, he resurrected into his old body and it was glorified at his resurrection.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, the rapture is ONE EVENT but the rapture is a different event than the resurrection. Obviously the resurrected resurrect in the resurrection BEFORE the rapture event happens.

Resurrection is ONE EVENT.
Rapture is ONE EVENT that happens only when the resurretion event is completed.

Who does the resurrecting and the rapturing ?

Jesus, right ?

Do you think that Jesus will be one one side of the globe and on the other side of the globe at the same time ?

No. Jesus will circle the globe, resurrecting and rapturing as He goes. And the resurrected and raptured individuals join the growing group of resurrected/raptured saints following Jesus as He circles the globe.

 

[amigo de christo]

It works...I've seen plenty of pod-cast where they mock christians for believing in the "Darby" concept.

both sides mock the others side . They do this . That alone would not be proof of whether something is true or is false .
Have you seen the love of harlot at work . Can you discern between the difference
of the love of the world and the LOVE of GOD. many no longer can .
They follow this ecumiencal inclusive love and its plan for peace , even BELIEVING it to be OF GOD .
SO it wont really matter if one had the right trib , IF that one is already g oing into
this inclusive love , this ecumeincalism , its intefaith , OH DEAR they shall so wail ON JESUS day .
Do you can you discern the love of a harlot or do you as many believe it to simply be the Love of GOD .
There is a real easy way to test and to discern exactly what love or LOVE ,what god or GOD , what jesus or JESUS
one has been following . In a book called the bible . if anyones love , if anyones god , if anyones jesus
CONTRADICTS HIS WORDS , the Words of even the aposetles
the words in that holy bible , THEN know and understand why i said god and NOT GOD and jesus and NOT JESUS .
Cause it the devil in wool and his co workers simply recreating an image of a god that all religoins and the decieved
in c hristendom will all see as THE ONE TRUE GOD , AS LOVE , and his plan for peace .
ONLY IT the devil my friend . SO what says you .

 

[CrowCross]

No, he resurrected into his old body and it was glorified at his resurrection.

Then why not us?
If you buried Granny who was a christian several days ago ...and the resurrection happened yesterday....then you dug up and opened Grannies casket...would Granny be in it?

 

[Davidpt]

Read it real slow and focus on the word "Captivity" then do a word search in Ezekiel who was a prophet of Israel during the 70 year Babylonial Captivity, your focus is on the battle seen in Ezekiel 39

As scripture clearly teaches below, the war was fought at the time surrounding the 70 years of captivity in Babylon "Long Ago"!

Israel went into the 70 year captivity, the Lord's brought them out of the 70 year captivity, the war was fought with wooden weapons of warfare "Long Ago" the horse is really dead now "Next"! We Disagree

Ezekiel 39:7 & 23-25KJV
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

I think the focus on the word 'captivity' is missing the larger point of the passage. The question isn't whether Ezekiel mentions captivity. The question is which captivity fits the context and sequence of Ezekiel 39?

The key is the order of events.

Ezekiel 39:21-22
And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Verse 22 follows God's judgment on Gog and his multitude in verses 1-20. The phrase 'from that day and forward' marks a decisive turning point that begins after God destroys Gog.

That simply did not happen after the Babylonian captivity.

Following the return from Babylon, Israel was still under Gentile domination, later rejected her Messiah, and eventually Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in AD 70. It cannot reasonably be said that, from the return out of Babylon, 'the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.'

Then notice what comes next.

Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity...

The text does not say "the Babylonian captivity. It simply explains why Israel went into captivity and why God hid His face from them.

Since verses 21-22 have not yet occurred, I see no reason to force verses 23-24 back into the sixth century BC. The passage naturally continues the same future sequence.

This is why I think Luke 21:24 is highly relevant.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Jesus is clearly not speaking of the 70-year Babylonian captivity. He describes a worldwide dispersion following the destruction of Jerusalem, one that continues until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

That captivity fits the context of Ezekiel 39 much better because it precedes Israel's final restoration. Plus we need to factor in the following as well, the verse below.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


So my position is not based on the word 'captivity' by itself. It is based on the sequence of the chapter.

1) God judges Gog.
2) From that day forward Israel knows the LORD.
3) The nations understand why Israel had gone into captivity.
4) God restores Israel.

Since the judgment of Gog and the permanent change described in verse 22 did not occur after the Babylonian exile, I don't believe Ezekiel 39 can be exhausted by events surrounding the return from Babylon. The context points beyond that earlier captivity to the later dispersion Jesus describes in Luke 21:24, which precedes Israel's final restoration.

 

[Truth7t7]

I think the focus on the word 'captivity' is missing the larger point of the passage. The question isn't whether Ezekiel mentions captivity. The question is which captivity fits the context and sequence of Ezekiel 39?

The key is the order of events.

Ezekiel 39:21-22
And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Verse 22 follows God's judgment on Gog and his multitude in verses 1-20. The phrase 'from that day and forward' marks a decisive turning point that begins after God destroys Gog.

That simply did not happen after the Babylonian captivity.

I Disagree, it was a battle surrounding Israel's return after the Babylonian captivity, it was fought with wooden weapons of warfare, bows, arrows, spears, and shields

Following the return from Babylon, Israel was still under Gentile domination

Israel was under the rulership of the decree of Cyrus the great and his son Darius the king of persia

later rejected her Messiah, and eventually Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in AD 70. It cannot reasonably be said that, from the return out of Babylon, 'the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.'

70AD played no part in fulfillment of Ezekiel Chapter 39, God showed his great strength in Israel returning to Jerusalem and building the 2nd Zerubabbel temple under the decree of Cyrus and Darius the kings, all expenses paid 536BC

Then notice what comes next.

Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity...

The text does not say "the Babylonian captivity. It simply explains why Israel went into captivity and why God hid His face from them.

Since verses 21-22 have not yet occurred, I see no reason to force verses 23-24 back into the sixth century BC. The passage naturally continues the same future sequence.

I Disagree, Ezekiel was a prophet to Israel in the Babylonian Captivity, and his prophecy was surroundingthe battle fought long ago with wooden weapons and Israel returning to Jerusalem from the Babylonian captivity

This is why I think Luke 21:24 is highly relevant.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This will be a future event that's presently unfulfilled

Jesus is clearly not speaking of the 70-year Babylonian captivity. He describes a worldwide dispersion following the destruction of Jerusalem, one that continues until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Like 21:24 & Revelation 11:2 depict the very same future event, the fulfilling of the gentiles will take 42 months

That captivity fits the context of Ezekiel 39 much better because it precedes Israel's final restoration. Plus we need to factor in the following as well, the verse below.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


So my position is not based on the word 'captivity' by itself. It is based on the sequence of the chapter.

1) God judges Gog.
2) From that day forward Israel knows the LORD.
3) The nations understand why Israel had gone into captivity.
4) God restores Israel.

Since the judgment of Gog and the permanent change described in verse 22 did not occur after the Babylonian exile, I don't believe Ezekiel 39 can be exhausted by events surrounding the return from Babylon. The context points beyond that earlier captivity to the later dispersion Jesus describes in Luke 21:24, which precedes Israel's final restoration.

Once Again I Disagree, Ezekiel 39 applies to a battle fought long ago with wooden weapons of warfare and Israel returning to Jerusalem from the Babylonian captivity to rebuild the 2nd Zerubabbel temple

Thanks for the response!

Jesus Is The Lord