The taken and the left

[PinSeeker]

Probation. That sound like Seventh-day Adventist. Is it? I was raised SDA, but I can't remember what is meant by probation, nor when probation closes. But I've heard of it.

I don't think it's particularly an SDA concept... It is a biblical concept, but, as is the case with so many things discussed on this board, very misunderstood by many, often by understanding it in the wrong sense rather than the right one. Many understand it in the sense of the exercise of free will, the allowing of individuals to choose obedience or disobedience and to respond to God positively rather than negatively. But this is incorrect; it should be understood in the sense of our being refined...

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12).​

...of our being conformed to the image of Christ...

"...those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).​

...of our being made new...

"Behold, I am making all things new" (Revelation 21:5).

It's a misunderstanding of several very closely related things:

• the natural state of man and the nature of his/her being (and why this is the case)... even King David says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me..." (Psalm 51:5)
• who does what in salvation,
• what being one of God's elect depends on... "He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:15-16).
• of God's inward call and the work of the Holy Spirit... "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30); "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:7-8).
• why one's "free will" (actually, the desire of his/her heart) changes... "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
• what causes one to freely change from rebellion against God (actually hating God) to love for God... "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us...We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:15-19).

...not an exhaustive list... <smile>

The way I see end times is based on Romans 11:25-26, and the last Gentile that God knows wants to be saved, believes.

Well, right... These end times that we are in... <smile> ...in the same sense as what the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:1-2... "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world"...will come to an end when, in Paul's terms in Romans 11, the fullness of the Gentile elect is brought into God's Israel and the Jewish elect is also brought in. Then the full number of God's elect will have been brought in, and thus "all of Isreal saved"... and... Jesus will return.

Then 2 Thes. 2:8-12 happens to the rest of the Gentiles, and the last seven years will be the time for Israel's partial blindness to be removed and for at least 144,000 Jews to be saved...

This will have already been accomplished.

, but I hope all of them will be. During this time there will be martyrs of Gentile Christians in the first 3 1/2 years, while Israel is being protected and converted, and then their protection will be lifted and Jews and Gentile Christians alike will be martyred, except for the Philadelphian type Christians who will have either been raptured as some believe before the seven years starts, or protected by God throughout.

Ugh... <smile> I do like the "protected by God" thing, though... <smile> Yes, as Peter says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

Now where in this scenario does probation close?

When the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in and the partial hardening that is now on Isreal is removed... you kind of answered your own question here above.

You also said, "There will be no martyrs after probation closes, such would bring no glory to God." I'm clueless as to why, when, and what that means.

I mean I realize you are addressing someone else here, but I'll say this: we are all martyrs, in the sense of what Paul says in Romans 12, that we are to "present (our) bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is (our) spiritual worship" (Romans 12:1). So yes, this probationary period is now, but the "probation" in the sense of what I said above.

Grace and peace to you, 1stCenturyLady.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I don't think it's particularly an SDA concept... It is a biblical concept, but, as is the case with so many things discussed on this board, very misunderstood by many, often by understanding it in the wrong sense rather than the right one. Many understand it in the sense of the exercise of free will, the allowing of individuals to choose obedience or disobedience and to respond to God positively rather than negatively. But this is incorrect; it should be understood in the sense of our being refined...

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love Him" (James 1:12).
...of our being conformed to the image of Christ...

"...those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30).
...of our being made new...

"Behold, I am making all things new" (Revelation 21:5).

It's a misunderstanding of several very closely related things:

• the natural state of man and the nature of his/her being (and why this is the case)... even King David says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me..." (Psalm 51:5)
• who does what in salvation,
• what being one of God's elect depends on... "He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:15-16).
• of God's inward call and the work of the Holy Spirit... "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:29-30); "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:7-8).
• why one's "free will" (actually, the desire of his/her heart) changes... "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).
• what causes one to freely change from rebellion against God (actually hating God) to love for God... "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us...We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:15-19).

...not an exhaustive list... <smile>

Why use the word "probation" that is not in the Bible, instead of simply using "born again of the Spirit" which is? Are you SDA also?

Well, right... These end times that we are in... <smile> ...in the same sense as what the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:1-2... "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, Whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world"...will come to an end when, in Paul's terms in Romans 11, the fullness of the Gentile elect is brought into God's Israel and the Jewish elect is also brought in. Then the full number of God's elect will have been brought in, and thus "all of Isreal saved"... and... Jesus will return.

No Gentile will come to Christ after the Great Tribulation starts, only Jews. All the Gentiles that have not come to Christ when they had a chance will receive a strong delusion by God.

This will have already been accomplished.

What is "this"? You haven't said when. Be more clear. Before the Great Tribulation, before the return of Christ, what?

Ugh... <smile> I do like the "protected by God" thing, though... <smile> Yes, as Peter says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).

Except not all Christians will be "protected" from martyrdom.

When the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in and the partial hardening that is now on Isreal is removed... you kind of answered your own question here above.

So the "probation" is only for Gentiles? I've got news for you. The Jews have to be born again too. "Probation" in no way comes close to the meaning of being born again of the Spirit.

I mean I realize you are addressing someone else here, but I'll say this: we are all martyrs, in the sense of what Paul says in Romans 12, that we are to "present (our) bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is (our) spiritual worship" (Romans 12:1). So yes, this probationary period is now, but the "probation" in the sense of what I said above.

Sorry, this is literal martyrdom. They will cut off your head.

 

[PinSeeker]

Why use the word "probation" that is not in the Bible...

Right, someone else did above, not me, except to pick up on something that other poster had said. And like I said, I don't think that's particularly an SDA concept. And as I said above, this period of tribulation that we are in is not a "probation," as if God is waiting to see whether we will repent and turn to Him or not, but a period in which as Christians, through our trials and tribulations, God is refining us... making us holy, making us more and more like Jesus. This is what we call sanctification. And, He will bring that work to completion in each of us, as Paul tells the Philippians (1:6) at the day of Jesus Christ.

...instead of simply using "born again of the Spirit" which is?

I don't think the idea of "probation" ~ which I think I was clear in saying I don't like ~ and being born again of the Spirit are like concepts.

Are you SDA also?

Noooooooo... <chuckles> But again, I don't think the idea of a "probationary period" is particularly and SDA concept. I think it's more Arminian, actually.

No Gentile will come to Christ after the Great Tribulation starts, only Jews...

No one will come to Christ once this current ~ current; yes it will "ramp up" greatly near the end... and may have already begun to do that, but it is current ~ time of tribulation. Because the fullness of the Gentiles will have been brought into God's Isreal and the partial hardening that is now on Israel will have been removed. In other words, all of God's elect will have been brought into Israel; all those who are to be saved will have been saved... all of Israel saved, as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26.

What is "this"?

The saving of all God's elect.

You haven't said when.

We don't know when. As Jesus said, no one ~ not even the Son ~ knows... only the Father.

Be more clear.

Hm. <smile>

Before the Great Tribulation, before the return of Christ, what?

The saving of all of God's Israel ~ which is coming to fruition during this present time of tribulation... and in the ramping up of this tribulation near the end of this age ~ will be complete prior to Christ's return, yes. It's actually what prompts Christ's return.

But, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, we Gentile Christians are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God~ God's Israel ~ built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him we ~ Jewish and Gentile believers alike ~ are all being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Except not all Christians will be "protected" from martyrdom.

Sure, the actual thing, yes. But as I said, we are all martyrs in some sense... we have all died to ourselves and live to God... God has made as alive in Christ... given us new birth in the Spirit, as you said. Right?

Yeah so, as for being "protected," if you mean it in the sense of being kept from actual martyrdom (which you obviously do), then I would agree. But one can be protected ~ by God, of course ~ even through it. You believe what Paul says in Romans 8:28, right? Well of course you do... God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. And again, as Peter says, by God’s power we Christians are being guarded ~ which involves protection ~ through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Right?

So the "probation" is only for Gentiles?

This idea of "probation" is... not right. I have been very clear about that. As I said above, many... even though they don't call it that... understand it in the sense of the exercise of free will, the allowing of individuals to choose obedience or disobedience and to respond to God positively rather than negatively. But this is incorrect; it should be understood in the sense of our being refined... God is making us what He wants us to be. And again, God, Who began that good work in us, will bring that work to completion in each of us, as Paul says in Philippians 1:6, at the day of Jesus Christ.

I've got news for you. The Jews have to be born again too.

Absolutely. Thanks for the... news. <chuckles> Right, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he or she is born again of the Spirit. We agree on that...

"Probation" in no way comes close to the meaning of being born again of the Spirit.

I agree. <smile>

They will cut off your head..

Hmmm, I sure hope not... And I probably won't have my head literally cut off... <chuckles> But, you know, they (whoever "they" are) do, I will see Christ as He is. And be with Him that very day.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Right, someone else did above, not me, except to pick up on something that other poster had said. And like I said, I don't think that's particularly an SDA concept. And as I said above, this period of tribulation that we are in is not a "probation," as if God is waiting to see whether we will repent and turn to Him or not, but a period in which as Christians, through our trials and tribulations, God is refining us... making us holy, making us more and more like Jesus. This is what we call sanctification. And, He will bring that work to completion in each of us, as Paul tells the Philippians (1:6) at the day of Jesus Christ.

I don't think we are in a "period of tribulation" like the Great Tribulation yet. Why do you?

I don't think the idea of "probation" ~ which I think I was clear in saying I don't like ~ and being born again of the Spirit are like concepts.

If there are any other groups using the word "probation" to mean whatever it is they think it is, it may be the JW's. But "born again" is Scriptural, where "probation" is not.

I think it's more Arminian, actually.

I don't think so as Arminian churches don't use that word either. Are you Calvinist? I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

No one will come to Christ once this current ~ current; yes it will "ramp up" greatly near the end... and may have already begun to do that, but it is current ~ time of tribulation. Because the fullness of the Gentiles will have been brought into God's Isreal and the partial hardening that is now on Israel will have been removed. In other words, all of God's elect will have been brought into Israel; all those who are to be saved will have been saved... all of Israel saved, as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26.

We're not on the same page when it comes to the Scriptural Great Tribulation and the end of the fulness of the Gentiles coming into the Church. Gentiles are still being saved, so the GT has not even started yet. You seem to believe it has. Are you Preterist? (Trying to narrow down where you are getting your doctrines from).

The saving of all God's elect.

I've usually seen the word "elect" going as far back to the Old Testament with regards to national Jews. It has not been used in my studies.

The saving of all of God's Israel ~ which is coming to fruition during this present time of tribulation... and in the ramping up of this tribulation near the end of this age ~ will be complete prior to Christ's return, yes. It's actually what prompts Christ's return.

But, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, we Gentile Christians are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God~ God's Israel ~ built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him we ~ Jewish and Gentile believers alike ~ are all being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

It hasn't started yet because Gentiles are still being saved.

"When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in," is when the last non-national-Jew comes into the Church, making them spiritual-Jews. It has not yet begun, and is for 7 years broken up into two 3 1/2 year periods. The only new converts during that 7 years will be national Israel, bringing them into spiritual Israel.

Sure, the actual thing, yes. But as I said, we are all martyrs in some sense... we have all died to ourselves and live to God... God has made as alive in Christ... given us new birth in the Spirit, as you said. Right?

There is a difference. One is spiritual and has been going on for 2,000 years. There will come a time for actual martyrdom of our physical body, not just our spiritual body.

Yeah so, as for being "protected," if you mean it in the sense of being kept from actual martyrdom (which you obviously do), then I would agree. But one can be protected ~ by God, of course ~ even through it. You believe what Paul says in Romans 8:28, right? Well of course you do... God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. And again, as Peter says, by God’s power we Christians are being guarded ~ which involves protection ~ through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Right?

Yes, we agree. But not all of the Church is holy, not even righteous. Those are the ones with robes that need to be washed in the blood of the Lamb. Those are the ones if alive during the last 7 years, will be beheaded, and God knows the number of them also.

This idea of "probation" is... not right. I have been very clear about that. As I said above, many... even though they don't call it that... understand it in the sense of the exercise of free will, the allowing of individuals to choose obedience or disobedience and to respond to God positively rather than negatively. But this is incorrect; it should be understood in the sense of our being refined... God is making us what He wants us to be. And again, God, Who began that good work in us, will bring that work to completion in each of us, as Paul says in Philippians 1:6, at the day of Jesus Christ.

You've been clear to yourself, but I'm clueless as to what you mean. LOL It seem you believe the last seven years of Great Tribulation is just our normal tribulation that comes upon all of us for the past 2,000 years. That's entirely different than having to give up your life. And that's not your spiritual Israel life, I'm talking them actually cutting off your head.

Hmmm, I sure hope not... And I probably won't have my head literally cut off... <chuckles> But, you know, they (whoever "they" are) do, I will see Christ as He is. And be with Him that very day.

With this last war in Israel, we are closer than ever to the actual Great Tribulation. If you are not readying yourself to let yourself be martyred, then I hope you die soon in your sleep. I wish that for myself also. However, I am stealing myself to stay true and not take the mark of the beast, and if for some reason I'm not of the Philadelphian type of Christ which Jesus protects, which I think I am, I will not fight martyrdom.

Mark of the beast. That's another question for you. What do you think about it?

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't think we are in a "period of tribulation" like the Great Tribulation yet. Why do you?



If there are any other groups using the word "probation" to mean whatever it is they think it is, it may be the JW's. But "born again" is Scriptural, where "probation" is not.


I don't think so as Arminian churches don't use that word either. Are you Calvinist? I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian.



We're not on the same page when it comes to the Scriptural Great Tribulation and the end of the fulness of the Gentiles coming into the Church. Gentiles are still being saved, so the GT has not even started yet. You seem to believe it has. Are you Preterist? (Trying to narrow down where you are getting your doctrines from).




I've usually seen the word "elect" going as far back to the Old Testament with regards to national Jews. It has not been used in my studies.



It hasn't started yet because Gentiles are still being saved.

"When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in," is when the last non-national-Jew comes into the Church, making them spiritual-Jews. It has not yet begun, and is for 7 years broken up into two 3 1/2 year periods. The only new converts during that 7 years will be national Israel, bringing them into spiritual Israel.


There is a difference. One is spiritual and has been going on for 2,000 years. There will come a time for actual martyrdom of our physical body, not just our spiritual body.


Yes, we agree. But not all of the Church is holy, not even righteous. Those are the ones with robes that need to be washed in the blood of the Lamb. Those are the ones if alive during the last 7 years, will be beheaded, and God knows the number of them also.



You've been clear to yourself, but I'm clueless as to what you mean. LOL It seem you believe the last seven years of Great Tribulation is just our normal tribulation that comes upon all of us for the past 2,000 years. That's entirely different than having to give up your life. And that's not your spiritual Israel life, I'm talking them actually cutting off your head.



With this last war in Israel, we are closer than ever to the actual Great Tribulation. If you are not readying yourself to let yourself be martyred, then I hope you die soon in your sleep. I wish that for myself also. However, I am stealing myself to stay true and not take the mark of the beast, and if for some reason I'm not of the Philadelphian type of Christ which Jesus protects, which I think I am, I will not fight martyrdom.

Mark of the beast. That's another question for you. What do you think about it?

The all inclusive god is satan . whether that be hard to grasp or not . IT IS THE TRUTH
and by this inclusive god , whose Ecumencial harlot has sold as GOD , shall all religoins and decieved christendom
merge as one . Speaking of great tribulation . IT IS AT THE DOOR .
Only dont think nations against this so called israel . NOPE .
ITS COMING IN through the false intefaith peace plan , the inclusive plan enforced by
the ALL out powerful and fully operational AI LED DIGITAL system .
YOU GOT that right , WE GOT DUPED by false love , by f ake seeker friendly
by the judge not correct nots . ALL THEY DID was allow the leaven to remain and to GROW
t ill all were made ready FOR THE BIG LIE and to serve the agenda of the beast . DUPED . HELLO they fleeced us all .
And our betrayal is at the door .

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't think we are in a "period of tribulation" like the Great Tribulation yet. Why do you?

I didn't say we were, I said we might be, that it might have already begun.

If there are any other groups using the word "probation" to mean whatever it is they think it is, it may be the JW's. But "born again" is Scriptural, where "probation" is not.

Right, we've discussed "probation" quite enough. We agree on it. But you know, just concerning words and whether they're actually in the Bible or not, the word 'trinity' never appears... is never used, either, but it is a very useful word that describes the simultaneous three-ness and one-ness of the Godhead, which, I think you agree with that, too.

Aside from that, though, I just said (more than once) that the people ~ whoever they are ~ that use that term do so in an over-emphasis of free will... basically that we are "free agents," so to speak, and that God leaves it totally up to us to choose to repent and believe. And it's not that we don't, but that our choice... our free will... is not the thing on which our salvation depends, which is in keeping with what Paul says, particularly in Romans 9:16.

Are you Calvinist? I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

I believe of Scripture what Calvin did, yes. And from what you have said, you may not think you believe as Arminius did... or you may not even know what Jacobus Arminius did regarding Scripture, specifically regarding soteriology, but it seems you do. It's just that John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius were the two, um, "faces" of that debate back in the 15- and 1600s... like Augustine and Pelagius were back in the 400s.

We're not on the same page when it comes to the Scriptural Great Tribulation...

I know. <smile>

and the end of the fulness of the Gentiles coming into the Church.

Not so sure about that...

Gentiles are still being saved...

Right, and every saved Gentile ~ which may include you but certainly does me ~ is proof that Satan is bound from "deceiving the nations," in Revelation 20 terms. He cannot prevent the spread of the Gospel to the nations as he once could... as God, until Jesus's first coming, allowed him to do.

so the GT has not even started yet. You seem to believe it has.

As I said, I believe it may have, but don't know. I really doubt it, actually. Like you said, I believe there is still a ways to go before all of Isreal is saved. But... maybe not; we can't know.

Are you Preterist? (Trying to narrow down where you are getting your doctrines from).

Noooooooooooooooooooooo. <smile>

I've usually seen the word "elect" going as far back to the Old Testament with regards to national Jews. It has not been used in my studies.

Hmmmmm... <smile> Paul certainly uses it...

It hasn't started yet because Gentiles are still being saved.

I'm inclined to agree, but again, we can't know for sure.

"When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in," is when the last non-national-Jew comes into the Church, making them spiritual-Jews.

Right. True Jews of God, of His Israel.

...is for 7 years broken up into two 3 1/2 year periods.

Uh oh. <smile>

The only new converts during that 7 years will be national Israel, bringing them into spiritual Israel.

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyeah... disagree.

One is spiritual and has been going on for 2,000 years.

Hm. I would say it's all spiritual, 1stCenturyLady, in that yes, for 2000 years, people ~ Jew and Gentile alike ~ have been being... born again of the Spirit.

There will come a time for actual martyrdom of our physical body, not just our spiritual body.

Ugh. <smile>

...not all of the Church is holy, not even righteous.

If we are in Christ, we are... clothed in His righteousness. Just as with Abraham so long ago, we believe God, and it is credited to us as righteousness.

Those are the ones with robes that need to be washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Right, agree...

Those are the ones if alive during the last 7 years, will be beheaded...

Ugh. <smile> Revelation 20 can be... troublesome... but it needn't be so... <smile>

...God knows the number of them also.

He does indeed.

You've been clear to yourself, but I'm clueless as to what you mean. LOL

HAHA! Fair enough... <smile>

It seem you believe the last seven years of Great Tribulation is just our normal tribulation that comes upon all of us for the past 2,000 years.

Well, I don't believe what you believe about the seven years... or the Great Tribulation... But that's not to say I don't think they are real things... <smile>

That's entirely different than having to give up your life.

In a sense, yes, but in another sense, not so much. <smile>

And that's not your spiritual Israel life, I'm talking them actually cutting off your head.

Yeah, I know... <smile>

With this last war in Israel, we are closer than ever to the actual Great Tribulation.

I mean, time marches on, so really, no matter what has happened or is happening, yeah, we're closer than ever to... the end of the age, the end of "these last days," as the writer of Hebrews puts it in Hebrews 1:1-2.

If you are not readying yourself to let yourself be martyred, then I hope you die soon in your sleep. I wish that for myself also.

That would be a good way to go, I agree. <smile>

However, I am stealing myself to stay true and not take the mark of the beast, and if for some reason I'm not of the Philadelphian type of Christ which Jesus protects, which I think I am, I will not fight martyrdom.

Hmmmm... <smile> I mean, yes, like Paul said, to live is Christ, and to die is gain...

Mark of the beast. That's another question for you. What do you think about it?

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, boy. Well... <smile>

Okay. In a nutshell... I say:

The mark of the Beast is a counterfeit for the seal of God’s name on the saints (Revelation 7:2-8; 14:1; cf. Ezekiel 9; Deuteronomy 6:8)... which as believers in Christ we all have... we are sealed in and by the Spirit (Ephesians 1, 1 Peter 1). By contrast, the Beast (the dragon, the devil and Satan) owns those who are marked and they are his slaves (Revelation 14:9; 19:20; 20:4), and these are... not "will be," but are... the slaves to unrighteousness that Paul speaks of in Romans 6. Even Jesus says as much in John 6, 8, and 10, saying that those who don't believe do not believe because they are not His sheep, not given to Him by the Father, even that they don't believe because their father is the devil (John 8:44, 10:26). And John even says that many antichrists have already come, even in his day, in 1 John 2:18. These have ~ have ~ the mark of the Beast... but again, we do not know who all they are. We'll find out at the final Judgment; they will be all the ones on Jesus's left (Matthew 25:31-46), all those resurrected to judgment (John 5:28-29)...

Anyway, the mark denotes spiritual allegiance and ownership, both in the case of God’s mark and in the case of the counterfeit by the Beast. In both cases the mark is at root spiritual rather than visible. The multitude of speculations about a visible mark are... moot. We don't know who all has the mark of the Beast, just like, at present, we do not really know who all have God's mark... who all are His elect.

Maybe that's not just a nutshell... <smile> Okay, that's enough for now, I think... <smile>

Grace and peace to you!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The all inclusive god is satan . whether that be hard to grasp or not . IT IS THE TRUTH
and by this inclusive god , whose Ecumencial harlot has sold as GOD , shall all religoins and decieved christendom
merge as one . Speaking of great tribulation . IT IS AT THE DOOR .
Only dont think nations against this so called israel . NOPE .
ITS COMING IN through the false intefaith peace plan , the inclusive plan enforced by
the ALL out powerful and fully operational AI LED DIGITAL system .
YOU GOT that right , WE GOT DUPED by false love , by f ake seeker friendly
by the judge not correct nots . ALL THEY DID was allow the leaven to remain and to GROW
t ill all were made ready FOR THE BIG LIE and to serve the agenda of the beast . DUPED . HELLO they fleeced us all .
And our betrayal is at the door .

I still think Romans 11:25-26 is national Israel being saved during the Great Tribulation.

 

[PinSeeker]

I still think Romans 11:25-26 is national Israel being saved...

Hmmm, well, think about what Paul has said about Israel, even in Romans, leading up to this, particularly regarding who is really a true Jew of God and why:

• ...in Romans 2:28-29... "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter... His praise is not from man but from God"
• ...and Romans 9:6-8... "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring..."
• ...and Romans 11:6 "...Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened..."

The folks he's talking about, 1stCenturyLady, when he finally gets to Romans 11:25-25, are the same group of folks he is talking about explicitly in Romans 9:24, "even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles." These are His elect, true Jews of God. It's not about ethnicity. God's Israel is not made up of only ethnic Jews. God's Israel is made of an innumerable multitude of folks... as the grains of sand on the seashore, numbering as the stars of the heavens, as He told Abraham back in Genesis 22:17, so hailing from every tongue, tribe, and people-group.

...during the Great Tribulation.

Well, yes, but during the time of tribulation as a whole ~ remember Jesus's words to His disciples, and to us by extension, "In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world..." ~ which is from Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2) up to now, and until, again, what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26 is the case in full: "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." So, not the physical nation-state Israel, but His Israel... all those, Jew and Gentile alike, who are in Christ, as we are all one in Christ Jesus, as Paul says in Galatians 3:25-29... "now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian (the law), for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

You see?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Right, we've discussed "probation" quite enough. We agree on it. But you know, just concerning words and whether they're actually in the Bible or not, the word 'trinity' never appears... is never used, either, but it is a very useful word that describes the simultaneous three-ness and one-ness of the Godhead, which, I think you agree with that, too.

I hope he gets back to me to describe "probation" and what and why it is necessary. Is it in the future or the past. Still haven't a clue what it is about.

I doubt it; I was surprised to find that Trinitarians believe the Trinity is three separate persons. After all, we humans are made in Their image. I look at 1 Thes. 5:23 and see how I, a human made in God's image, is three in one, and believe God is the same. I would call myself a Triunitarian. And as I am now born again, my spirit and soul are what is born again now, taking on God's divine nature. This is how I have the mind of Christ. I also have His heart and love what He loves, and hate what He hates. In this way we are One as Jesus prayed in John 17. I see Jesus as having the mind of the Father, and the power of the Spirit. Born again Christians also have the power of the Holy Spirit. Mark 16:16-18

Aside from that, though, I just said (more than once) that the people ~ whoever they are ~ that use that term do so in an over-emphasis of free will... basically that we are "free agents," so to speak, and that God leaves it totally up to us to choose to repent and believe. And it's not that we don't, but that our choice... our free will... is not the thing on which our salvation depends, which is in keeping with what Paul says, particularly in Romans 9:16.

You seem to have a better handle on what they (whoever "they" are) believe is "probation." I'm still clueless, and not sure of what you believe either.

I believe of Scripture what Calvin did, yes. And from what you have said, you may not think you believe as Arminius did... or you may not even know what Jacobus Arminius did regarding Scripture, specifically regarding soteriology, but it seems you do. It's just that John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius were the two, um, "faces" of that debate back in the 15- and 1600s... like Augustine and Pelagius were back in the 400s.

I would say I'm more like John Wesley. But I don't know how close he was in his beliefs to be like Jacobus Arminius.

Seeing as you are Calvinist, I've been dying to hear the true answer to what "T" Total Depravity is with regards to a born again Christian. I would say that being born again of the Spirit cures the total depravity Calvinists named. But on the radio on "To Every Man An Answer" 5:00 pm Central time, they believe that Christians are still totally depraved and always in a state of needing a Savior. To me that's nuts. That would be like dragging around a corpse tied to your leg. I believe the old man of Romans 6 is dead and we are freed from willful lawless sin, the first and most deadly of the two types of sin. The second type is just immature fruit and is what type of sin 1 John 1:7 is referring to. You can't walk in the Spirit and commit murder at the same time, so it is definitely not speaking of willful lawlessness being cleansed out of us for the rest of our lives. The Catholics have it right, but Protestants see "sin is sin" instead of sins unto death and sins NOT unto death.

Right, and every saved Gentile ~ which may include you but certainly does me ~ is proof that Satan is bound from "deceiving the nations," in Revelation 20 terms. He cannot prevent the spread of the Gospel to the nations as he once could... as God, until Jesus's first coming, allowed him to do.

I'm not Jewish. I'm Gentile. But Satan is not bound yet. Jesus must be here because Satan is bound for the 1,000 year millennium while Jesus is reigning on this earth.

As I said, I believe it may have, but don't know. I really doubt it, actually. Like you said, I believe there is still a ways to go before all of Isreal is saved. But... maybe not; we can't know.

Yes, we can know. It is spelled out in Revelation 12 and 13. The "woman" is national Israel which birthed Christ. And the first 3 1/2 years the woman is protected, during which their partial blindness is lifted and they are saved. But the dragon (Satan) goes after Gentile Christians, Rev. 12:17. Chapter 13 is the second half of the Great Tribulation and no one is protected, except the Philadelphian type Christians of Rev. 3. If they haven't died in their sleep, the most blessed way to go I think.

Paul certainly uses it...

Yes, I know he does. And I think Peter does too. I would have to look up "elect" in biblegateway.com and see who they are talking about. I know Peter was talking to the Dispersion which were Jews.

I'm inclined to agree, but again, we can't know for sure.

Real 2 Thes. 2. The man of sin (Antichrist) comes first.

Uh oh. <smile>

So Calvinists don't believe in a 7 year Great Tribulation? Noted.

Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyeah... disagree.

Then how do you interpret 2 Thes. 2:8-12?

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Hm. I would say it's all spiritual, 1stCenturyLady, in that yes, for 2000 years, people ~ Jew and Gentile alike ~ have been being... born again of the Spirit.

I don't agree. National Israel is not yet saved.

If we are in Christ, we are... clothed in His righteousness. Just as with Abraham so long ago, we believe God, and it is credited to us as righteousness.

The first 8 chapters of Romans is a study on the difference in periods between the laws of God. From Adam to Moses (Abraham falls in this period, we don't), from Moses to the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, and after the Day of Pentecost until the return of Christ.

He does indeed.

I thought you didn't believe in the future martyrs during the Great Tribulation? So why do you agree God knows how many martyrs that will be.

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Well, I don't believe what you believe about the seven years... or the Great Tribulation... But that's not to say I don't think they are real things... <smile>

As for the Great Tribulation it is clear in Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The reason why I believe it will be 7 years is because I believe Revelation 11, 12 and 13 are about things in the Great Tribulation. Also Daniel 9:27 is a period of 7 years and is a paradigm, just and Daniel 8 and the 2,300 mornings and evenings are a paradigm. All seven year periods of time and all having to do with national Israel. (I say national Israel to distinguish it from spiritual Israel (which includes us).

I mean, time marches on, so really, no matter what has happened or is happening, yeah, we're closer than ever to... the end of the age, the end of "these last days," as the writer of Hebrews puts it in Hebrews 1:1-2.

Israel became a nation in 1948. Jesus said the generation that sees this will be the last generation. I was born in 1947 and am close to dying, so I'm in that "last generation." So its is very soon, indeed.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, boy. Well... <smile>

Okay. In a nutshell... I say:

The mark of the Beast is a counterfeit for the seal of God’s name on the saints (Revelation 7:2-8; 14:1; cf. Ezekiel 9; Deuteronomy 6:8)... which as believers in Christ we all have... we are sealed in and by the Spirit (Ephesians 1, 1 Peter 1). By contrast, the Beast (the dragon, the devil and Satan) owns those who are marked and they are his slaves (Revelation 14:9; 19:20; 20:4), and these are... not "will be," but are... the slaves to unrighteousness that Paul speaks of in Romans 6. Even Jesus says as much in John 6, 8, and 10, saying that those who don't believe do not believe because they are not His sheep, not given to Him by the Father, even that they don't believe because their father is the devil (John 8:44, 10:26). And John even says that many antichrists have already come, even in his day, in 1 John 2:18. These have ~ have ~ the mark of the Beast... but again, we do not know who all they are. We'll find out at the final Judgment; they will be all the ones on Jesus's left (Matthew 25:31-46), all those resurrected to judgment (John 5:28-29)...

Anyway, the mark denotes spiritual allegiance and ownership, both in the case of God’s mark and in the case of the counterfeit by the Beast. In both cases the mark is at root spiritual rather than visible. The multitude of speculations about a visible mark are... moot. We don't know who all has the mark of the Beast, just like, at present, we do not really know who all have God's mark... who all are His elect.

Maybe that's not just a nutshell... <smile> Okay, that's enough for now, I think... <smile>

Yeah, I'm not sure what it will be, but it is a real mark. Without it you cannot buy nor sell.

You bring up John 6 and 10 about His sheep "given to Jesus by His Father." I don't know about chapter 8 (I'll read it tonight in bed). The question of WHO are those sheep "given to Jesus by His Father," the answer is found in John 17 when Jesus prays for His APOSTLES. John uses key words and phrases and just as Jesus prayed for His Apostles who were "given to Him by the Father" he is ONLY speaking about the apostles, not us. John 17:20-23 is His prayer about us. No where are we predestined as the apostles were. Even in Ephesians 1, after the greeting to the Ephesians, Paul gives his authority to write to them as one of the predestined APOSTLES. Verse 13 starts about the Ephesians who ALSO believed.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Hmmm, well, think about what Paul has said about Israel, even in Romans, leading up to this, particularly regarding who is really a true Jew of God and why:

• ...in Romans 2:28-29... "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter... His praise is not from man but from God"
• ...and Romans 9:6-8... "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring..."
• ...and Romans 11:6 "...Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened..."

The folks he's talking about, 1stCenturyLady, when he finally gets to Romans 11:25-25, are the same group of folks he is talking about explicitly in Romans 9:24, "even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles." These are His elect, true Jews of God. It's not about ethnicity. God's Israel is not made up of only ethnic Jews. God's Israel is made of an innumerable multitude of folks... as the grains of sand on the seashore, numbering as the stars of the heavens, as He told Abraham back in Genesis 22:17, so hailing from every tongue, tribe, and people-group.

You really have to consider Paul's heart more than you are. Paul was broken hearted over his fellow Jews who would not accept Jesus. So he is not always referring to "spiritual Israel" when he speaks of Israel. Romans 9 through 11 are about BOTH spiritual Israel and national Israel too. Go back to the beginning:

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

In chapter 11 the saving of all Israel refers to the end of national Israel's partial blindness. Then all Israel will be saved.

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

So you see, Paul is talking about the partial blindness being lifted from whom? Spiritual Israel, or national Israel? This is what I like to shout: CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT.

 

[Brakelite]

Probation.

Probation is just a word that describes a period of time in which people have an opportunity to get their lives right with God before that time closes. It can be a prophetic time period that applies to nations such as the 70 weeks that were apportioned to Israel in Daniel 9, which closed at the end of the ministry of Stephen when the Sanhedrin and the rulers shut their ears for the final time and murdered the first martyr of the Christian Era. That took place at the end of the final week. The final 7 years that began with the anointing of the Messiah in 27ad, and included in the midst of that week the end of sacrifices, and concluded with the rejection of Stephens testimony and shortly after with Paul's turning away from Israel to preach to the Gentiles. That ended Israel's probation. That was their opportunity for repentance. Some as individuals took and accepted Christ, but the nation as a chosen body and entity, rejected Christ and officially confirmed am irrevocable decision made orchids by the mob... His blood be upon us and upon our children.

Other probationary periods were given such as to Pharaoh in Moses request to release Israel. He also refused. Another leader given a period of probation was Nebuchadnezzar. He repented and I believe will be resurrected with all the saints at the second coming.

Of course everyone on earth is given individual probation periods... its called life. Once death takes us, that's it. No second chances.

The biggest though is for the planet itself and everyone on it. Just as the people of Noah's day sure given am opportunity for repentance and refused, their probation closing when the door was shut, not when the floods came, so will this planet's probation close and everyone's opportunity to repent, not at the second coming, but shortly before when Jesus declares from heaven... before He comes note...
“11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. ”
Revelation 22:11-12 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

 

[Brakelite]

Anyway, the mark denotes spiritual allegiance and ownership, both in the case of God’s mark and in the case of the counterfeit by the Beast. In both cases the mark is at root spiritual rather than visible. The multitude of speculations about a visible mark are... moot. We don't know who all has the mark of the Beast, just like, at present, we do not really know who all have God's mark... who all are His elect.

It's fascinating to me how so many on these forums think they can know what the mark is and write profusely on the topic, even to the point of criticising those who have different ideas, yet none know and can firmly and biblically testify to the true identity of the beast itself.
They know what the mark of the beast is but don't know who the beast is?
You @PinSeeker are close. I agree that it is the opposite to the seal of God. It is not a visible mark/ seal, but an invisible conscientious decision that affirms loyalty and surrender to the authority of either God or the beast.
It is spiritual and not physical. It is intimately connected to the characteristics of each group. Those who have the seal of God the Bible testifies to the fact that they keep the commandments of God, they have the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of prophecy, and they have the faith of Jesus. Revelation 12:17; 14:12.
Those who have the mark of the beast have accepted the authority of the beast as their rule and guide and therefore follow the commandments of man rather than of God.
While this is a salvation issue, accepting one or the other isn't the means by which they are justified. All are justified by the blood of the Lamb. That's it. Being justified however doesn't guarantee salvation. When Christ died and gave His blood for a sacrifice, that was for the entire world. That is gospel Truth. But we all know that not everyone will take advantage of that opportunity. Many believe but fall short. They are not sanctified by that truth. They don't allow the Spirit of Life to transform them into the image of Christ. Even though they may believe in Calvary and that Christ is truly the Son of God, they don't surrender to God authority in their life and refuse to obey Him... Christ is their Saviour and they love that idea, but they baulk at surrendering to Him as Lord. Obedience becomes their stumbling stone and they aren't sanctified, they retain their sinful ways though hidden to others, and despite being deacons and elders and pastors and life long members of the church, they willingly accept the mark of the beast because it is easier, it is popular, and it promises security and comfort. That's in the hand. Some will believe the mark is the right thing to accept spiritually. They are deceived, but they sincerely think it a reflection of truth and genuine Christian authority and practise. Of course it centers on worship. But the golden cup that Babylon offers has many attractive allurements to take the wide road.

 

[amigo de christo]

I still think Romans 11:25-26 is national Israel being saved during the Great Tribulation.

Ponder and pray and pray and ponder . When speaking to the jews JESUS warned
Be watching and be ready lest that DAY come upon you unawares and as a thief .
The apostels , when writing to the church that consisted of believing jews and gentiles it was the same .
On THE DAY OF THE LORD there will be no second chance but only HIS WRATH upon all who beleived NOT
on HIM . that do include every unbeliving jew and gentile .
My advice to all is , PREACH JESUS to both jew and gentile , WHILE there still be the time to do so .
For what i type to one and say to one i both type and say to all
Many jews and many gentiles will face a lake of fire , that while many try and say dont exist
IT DO . And what i say to one i say to all
A jew can wail and will wail every bit as much as do a gentile , IF THEY rejected GOD .
And to reject JESUS whom GOD DID SEND , IS TO REJECT GOD .

 

[rebuilder 454]

I don't think we are in a "period of tribulation" like the Great Tribulation yet. Why do you?



If there are any other groups using the word "probation" to mean whatever it is they think it is, it may be the JW's. But "born again" is Scriptural, where "probation" is not.


I don't think so as Arminian churches don't use that word either. Are you Calvinist? I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian.



We're not on the same page when it comes to the Scriptural Great Tribulation and the end of the fulness of the Gentiles coming into the Church. Gentiles are still being saved, so the GT has not even started yet. You seem to believe it has. Are you Preterist? (Trying to narrow down where you are getting your doctrines from).




I've usually seen the word "elect" going as far back to the Old Testament with regards to national Jews. It has not been used in my studies.



It hasn't started yet because Gentiles are still being saved.

"When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in," is when the last non-national-Jew comes into the Church, making them spiritual-Jews. It has not yet begun, and is for 7 years broken up into two 3 1/2 year periods. The only new converts during that 7 years will be national Israel, bringing them into spiritual Israel.


There is a difference. One is spiritual and has been going on for 2,000 years. There will come a time for actual martyrdom of our physical body, not just our spiritual body.


Yes, we agree. But not all of the Church is holy, not even righteous. Those are the ones with robes that need to be washed in the blood of the Lamb. Those are the ones if alive during the last 7 years, will be beheaded, and God knows the number of them also.



You've been clear to yourself, but I'm clueless as to what you mean. LOL It seem you believe the last seven years of Great Tribulation is just our normal tribulation that comes upon all of us for the past 2,000 years. That's entirely different than having to give up your life. And that's not your spiritual Israel life, I'm talking them actually cutting off your head.



With this last war in Israel, we are closer than ever to the actual Great Tribulation. If you are not readying yourself to let yourself be martyred, then I hope you die soon in your sleep. I wish that for myself also. However, I am stealing myself to stay true and not take the mark of the beast, and if for some reason I'm not of the Philadelphian type of Christ which Jesus protects, which I think I am, I will not fight martyrdom.

Mark of the beast. That's another question for you. What do you think about it?

I agree with most of this

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It's fascinating to me how so many on these forums think they can know what the mark is and write profusely on the topic, even to the point of criticising those who have different ideas, yet none know and can firmly and biblically testify to the true identity of the beast itself.
They know what the mark of the beast is but don't know who the beast is?
You @PinSeeker are close. I agree that it is the opposite to the seal of God. It is not a visible mark/ seal, but an invisible conscientious decision that affirms loyalty and surrender to the authority of either God or the beast.
It is spiritual and not physical. It is intimately connected to the characteristics of each group. Those who have the seal of God the Bible testifies to the fact that they keep the commandments of God, they have the testimony of Jesus which is the Spirit of prophecy, and they have the faith of Jesus. Revelation 12:17; 14:12.
Those who have the mark of the beast have accepted the authority of the beast as their rule and guide and therefore follow the commandments of man rather than of God.
While this is a salvation issue, accepting one or the other isn't the means by which they are justified. All are justified by the blood of the Lamb. That's it. Being justified however doesn't guarantee salvation. When Christ died and gave His blood for a sacrifice, that was for the entire world. That is gospel Truth. But we all know that not everyone will take advantage of that opportunity. Many believe but fall short. They are not sanctified by that truth. They don't allow the Spirit of Life to transform them into the image of Christ. Even though they may believe in Calvary and that Christ is truly the Son of God, they don't surrender to God authority in their life and refuse to obey Him... Christ is their Saviour and they love that idea, but they baulk at surrendering to Him as Lord. Obedience becomes their stumbling stone and they aren't sanctified, they retain their sinful ways though hidden to others, and despite being deacons and elders and pastors and life long members of the church, they willingly accept the mark of the beast because it is easier, it is popular, and it promises security and comfort. That's in the hand. Some will believe the mark is the right thing to accept spiritually. They are deceived, but they sincerely think it a reflection of truth and genuine Christian authority and practise. Of course it centers on worship. But the golden cup that Babylon offers has many attractive allurements to take the wide road.

Hi, Brakelite, Pinseeker and I have been discussing what you believe is "probation." Can you fully explain when, and what for it is?

 

[Brakelite]

Hi, Brakelite, Pinseeker and I have been discussing what you believe is "probation." Can you fully explain when, and what for it is?

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