The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<no one but [Jesus] had been in heaven>

IMO:

Jesus said no one but himself had *ascended* to heaven (in his/her living body, John 3:13).

The Apostle Paul *visited* heaven (2Corinthians 12:2).

What happened with Paul was after Jesus said what He did in John 3:13. You keep trying to find ways around the truth, but you can't do it.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

What happened with Paul was after Jesus said what He did in John 3:13. You keep trying to find ways around the truth, but you can't do it.

Yes, up until the time Jesus spoke John 3:13 that was the case.

After Jesus went to the Cross and was resurrected, this changed and now people do actually go in to the presence of the Father when they die.

Didn't you know this was what salvation was all about so people could get born again and be with the Lord?

Based on Paul's account, you cannot prove he didn't just have a vision about being in Heaven. Paul tells us he does not know if he was in his body when he saw that, or if he was out of his body.

It's speculation to claim Paul left his body and went to Heaven because Paul says he doesn't know if this is what happened or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, up until the time Jesus spoke John 3:13 that was the case.

After Jesus went to the Cross and was resurrected, this changed and now people do actually go in to the presence of the Father when they die.

Yes, I know that.

Didn't you know this was what salvation was all about so people could get born again and be with the Lord?

Where did you get this from what I said? Of course I know that and never said otherwise. Go back and read the whole discussion so that you can know what it's about. This discussion was about whether Enoch and Elijah had ascended to heaven (the third heaven/paradise). I'm saying that wasn't possible because Jesus said that no one but Him had been in heaven as of the time He spoke in John 3:13, which was BEFORE anyone's souls started going to the third heaven/paradise, which didn't begin to happen until Christ's death on the cross.

Based on Paul's account, you cannot prove he didn't just have a vision about being in Heaven. Paul tells us he does not know if he was in his body when he saw that, or if he was out of his body.

I didn't say otherwise. You are not even addressing anything that I've actually said because you came here late and don't even know what the discussion has been about.

It's speculation to claim Paul left his body and went to Heaven because Paul says he doesn't know if this is what happened or not.

I didn't claim that.

 

[William Barton]

<church will face Satan's wrath>

The Bible says:
"God has not appointed us to wrath" (1Thessalonians 1:10).

It's in the Book.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The Bible noted:
"God has not appointed us to wrath" (1Thessalonians 1:10).
It's in the Book.

Yep, but some folk did not learn anything from the account of Adam and Eve.

The devil told Adam and Eve that what God said was not true and then the devil offered up an alternate version of what God said only the devil's version contained lies.

The same thing is happening today as this is how satan operates.

Always seeking to get people to not believe what God said which separates trhem from the Lord just like it did Adam and Eve.

 

[David in NJ]

ewq938 noted:
<The church will face Satan's wrath>

The Bible noted:
"God has not appointed us to wrath" (1Thessalonians 1:10).
It's in the Book.

God's Wrath is NOT appointed to His Church/Saints/Elect

Satan's wrath is appointed to God's Church/Saints/Elect

 

[ewq1938]

God's Wrath is NOT appointed to His Church/Saints/Elect

Satan's wrath is appointed to God's Church/Saints/Elect

Exactly.

 

[David in NJ]

You've identified the problem and have expounded on that.

So WHEN are you going to share what people should be doing instead of following ecumenicalism?

So simple a child knows

But Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

 

[David in NJ]

Where did they go then?

You don't know?

 

[David in NJ]

They weren’t taken to the third heaven, they were taken to Abraham’s Bosom/Paradise. The same place all Old Testament believers went when they left this world.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is my pleasure to announce; We have a WINNER who knows where Enoch and Elijah went to.

FREE Ice Cream for @IndianaRob and David in NJ

 

[IndianaRob]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It is my pleasure to announce; We have a WINNER who knows where Enoch and Elijah went to.

FREE Ice Cream for @IndianaRob and David in NJ

Next time I’m in NJ I’m claiming that ice cream.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, up until the time Jesus spoke John 3:13 that was the case.

After Jesus went to the Cross and was resurrected, this changed and now people do actually go in to the presence of the Father when they die.

Didn't you know this was what salvation was all about so people could get born again and be with the Lord?

Based on Paul's account, you cannot prove he didn't just have a vision about being in Heaven. Paul tells us he does not know if he was in his body when he saw that, or if he was out of his body.

It's speculation to claim Paul left his body and went to Heaven because Paul says he doesn't know if this is what happened or not.

I think that you should re-read that scripture (KJV) and hear the context of the matter with [My interpretation].

Paul said that he [himself] "knew a man".
2 Cor. 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I [once] knew a man in Christ above [approximately] fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one [claimed to have been] caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether [the man himself was**] in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he [**the man claimed that he] was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

 

[David in NJ]

Next time I’m in NJ I’m claiming that ice cream.

I will take you to StoneCold Ice Cream

i go once a year because it is pricey$$$ but super delicious

 

[William Barton]

God's Wrath is NOT appointed to His Church/Saints/Elect

Satan's wrath is appointed to God's Church/Saints/Elect

IMO the "coming appointed wrath" is the bowl judgments of God in the second half of the tribulation (great tribulation, see Revelation 16:1-21).

"Bowl" in this context refers to intense suffering, such as torture by hot oil poured from bowls.

 

[David in NJ]

IMO the "coming appointed wrath" is the bowl judgments of God in the second half of the tribulation (great tribulation, see Revelation 16:1-21).

"Bowl" in this context refers to intense suffering, such as torture by hot oil poured from bowls.

The Body of Christ = His Church, is NOT appointed to God's Wrath = 1 Thess 1:10

and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

GOD does NOT count Satan's wrath as a judgment against the Saints.

SEE & BELIEVE = Revelation 12:7-12

Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels. 9And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of His Christ.

For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—

he who accuses them day and night before our God.

11They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony.

And they did not love their lives

so as to shy away from death.

12Therefore rejoice, O heavens,

and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea;

with great fury the devil has come down to you,

knowing he has only a short time.”

 

[William Barton]

God's Wrath is NOT appointed to His Church/Saints/Elect

Satan's wrath is appointed to God's Church/Saints/Elect

Satan indeed roams the earth, but so do God's guardian angels.

 

[David in NJ]

Satan indeed roams the earth, but so do God's guardian angels.

Yet GOD and the guardian angels do not interfere with Satan's wrath on the Church/Saints.

Have you read the Gospel?

Jesus Said:
Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus Said:
Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and deceive many.

 

[William Barton]

Yet GOD and the guardian angels do not interfere with Satan's wrath on the Church/Saints.

Have you read the Gospel?

Jesus Said:
Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Jesus Said:
Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and deceive many.

David in N.J. noted:
<they will deliver you over>

I suppose this refers to Christian Jews who did not fit in with the views of other Jews and peoples around them. Christians who declined to respect the Roman pantheon were brutalized by the Romans.

And there is no shortage of false prophets, then and now.

It seems to me that guardian angels would protect believers mainly from Satan and his fallen angels (not from accidents or from other people).