Free Will

[PinSeeker]

Calvinists say that man is born totally depraved with total inability, right?

This is at least part of the problem. Folks have some... well, wrong ideas about what is meant by Calvin (and thus Calvinists) by the terms "totally depraved" and "total inability."

...God's grace and our faith precede salvation...

God's grace ~ His unmerited favor, His mercy and compassion for us ~ is the reason for our salvation. And our faith is the assurance we have, given to us by God, that we are saved, that we have what was formerly only hoped for... the substance of what was formerly only hoped for... the evidence of what is unseen None of us can give ourselves this assurance or this substance or this evidence, else it is no assurance or substance or evidence at all but only wishful thinking.

Jesus calls all unregenerate sinners to repentance because all people have the ability to repent.

Right, but He knows full well that many will not. And this is because they are not His sheep, not given to Him by the Father, that their father is the devil. We have to distinguish, whether we like it or not, that though the general call of the Gospel goes out to all, God only calls ~ in the sense of Joel 2:32 ~ "...among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls" ~ and Romans 8:28 ~ "... for those who are called according to his purpose" ~ and Romans 9:23-24 ~ "to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory⁠ ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles"... those who He has mercy and compassion on/for (Romans 9:14-18).

You're an idiot.
That's on the scale of idiot, moron, and imbecile. Ezekiel 36:25-27 states clearly what occurs at regeneration that precedes... Every online Nicodemus today has the right to a keyboard and digital platform, I know! Right!
I gladly hit the ignore button on your profile.
You'll never stop defending your reprobate nature unless an act of G-d precedes any preconceived confession and repentance.
Undoubtedly, you won't be edified, whether in life or doctrine, should you be found delinquent.
Beat your chest, monkey boy.
You fail biblical literacy, and the English translation is translated into a 3rd-grade reading level.

Ohhhhh, now. So not necessary... I mean, grace, however undeserved, is not optional.. <smile>

Grace and peace to you both.

Obviously, you want to change that efficiency rating.

 

[Behold]

This is at least part of the problem. Folks have some... well, wrong ideas about what is meant by Calvin (and thus Calvinists) by the terms "totally depraved" and "total inability."

Christians lead people to Jesus.

Calvinists lead people to Calvin.

You dont seem to realize this yet, and if you do, then you are even a worse offender of the truth then i originally perceived @PinSeeker

And our faith is the assurance we have, given to us by God,

Salvation, receiving it, is the assurance that is Given to us by God....... its a inner witness that is based on the Holy Spirit being in us..

Our Faith is counted by God.....accepted by God.......and from that point, God DELIVERS to the BELIEVER..."the GIFT of Salvation".

"FAITH" is not assurance.
Having Salvation is Assurance, and many who have it, dont even have the same faith they had to begin with.........as now they believe they can lose their salvation which proves that they currently have no real faith in Christ at all.
Others have placed their faith in some demonic heretic like John Calvin or L.Ron Hubbard.

the general call of the Gospel goes out to all, God only calls ~

Typcial HyperCalvinist nonsense...........you posted again @PinSeeker

You first state that God's Call is to everyone, and then you CALVINISE it into Hell by reframing it as "pre-destined only". (God only calls).

They really need a CALVINISM section of the forum for you deceived people who want to hang out together and Kiss John Calvin's Theology ......so that this religious demonic theoligical trash can be kept away from the main body of the forum.

 

[PinSeeker]

Typical response from you. Deny, deny, deny.

It is what it is, and it isn't what it isn't.

So, if she had been a worshiper of God for many years prior, which is entirely possible, then you would say she had been regenerated many years prior to hearing the gospel preached by Paul?

Yes.

If so, I don't think this is what a Calvinist typically believes.

Any Calvinist worth his or her salt would say that for one to be a worshiper of God, he or she must be regenerate.

I think most Calvinists would say her heart was regenerated at the time Paul came to preach to her and the reference to God opening her heart is a reference to her heart being regenerated at that time.

I mean okay, you think that, fine. But they would say... or they could really only say... what I said, which is that that's possible. But we don't know... can't know. Luke himself didn't know, how long she had been a worshiper of God, or how long her heart...

...only God looks on and can see the heart, you know,,, "But the Lord said to Samuel, 'Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart..." (1 Samuel 16:7)​

...had been regenerate.

Uh huh.


Hmmmm......

<chuckles>

Grace and peace.

 

[Behold]

Any Calvinist worth his or her salt

God doesn't produce Calvinists.
Satan does.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is at least part of the problem. Folks have some... well, wrong ideas about what is meant by Calvin (and thus Calvinists) by the terms "totally depraved" and "total inability."

Okay, so go ahead and explain those terms as you think Calvin taught them or how you understand them (if you understand them differently than he did).

God's grace ~ His unmerited favor, His mercy and compassion for us ~ is the reason for our salvation.

Of course. We are saved by God's grace through faith. He wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32). and that's why He offers salvation to all people (Matthew 22:1-13, Titus 2:11). It's exactly what I would expect a God who is love (1 John 4:8). Not because He is obligated to do so, but because that is who He is. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and He calls them to repent rather than die in their lost state (Ezekiel 18:30-32, Ezekiel 33:11, Mark 2:16-17).

And our faith is the assurance we have, given to us by God,

Oops. There you go again. Making things up. If this was true then Jesus being amazed at how much faith the centurion had who trusted Him to heal his servant would make no sense at all. Jesus would not be amazed at how much faith anyone had if it was simply given to people by God. God does not force Himself upon anyone. He requires people to willingly put their trust in Him rather than themselves or anyone or anything else. Jesus doesn't break down the door of our hearts, He knocks on the door and asks us to let Him in. That is our responsibility. Your view removes all responsibility in salvation from man, which contradicts many scriptures.

Revelation 3:20 (NKJV) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

Revelation 3:20 (Calvinist Version) I'm here! Hope I didn't startle you and I hope you don't mind that I broke your door down, but, you know, you have no say in this at all. You will now dine with Me and you'll like it.

Right, but He knows full well that many will not.

By choice. It is not the they are unable to repent, as you believe. It is because they refuse to do so. They have no excuse for that. There is no excuse for repeatedly suppressing the truth in unrighteousness while refusing to repent and accept the truth. Your doctrine gives people the perfect excuse for not repenting and for suppressing the truth because it says they are unable to repent. What better excuse for not doing so than not having the ability to do so? Yet, scripture says they have no excuse (Romans 1:18-21, Romans 2:

And this is because they are not His sheep,

They have no excuse for not being His sheep because no one has any excuse for rejecting Christ. That's why people are condemned for doing so (John 3:18). God doesn't get angry at people for not doing things that they're not even capable of doing. That makes a mockery out of God. He gets angry at people and punishes them for not doing the things that He fully expects and requires them to do. He wants all people to repent (Ezekiel 18:30-32, Ezekiel 33:11, Mark 2:16-17, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Timothy 4:10), as scripture makes abundantly clear, and you deny it.

not given to Him by the Father, that their father is the devil. We have to distinguish, whether we like it or not, that though the general call of the Gospel goes out to all, God only calls ~ in the sense of Joel 2:32 ~ "...among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls" ~ and Romans 8:28 ~ "... for those who are called according to his purpose" ~ and Romans 9:23-24 ~ "to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory⁠ ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles"... those who He has mercy and compassion on/for (Romans 9:14-18).

You can't just make this supposed "general call of the gospel" meaningless to most people the way you do. That's completely unreasonable and makes god look disingenuous for calling people to salvation who are supposedly unable to answer the call. This does not take into account that he wants to have mercy on all people. There's just so much that you don't even take into consideration.

 

[Bombastic]

Ohhhhh, now. So not necessary... I mean, grace, however undeserved, is not optional.. <smile>

Grace and peace to you both.

I am sure Universalists side with that notion. You're too bright for me to have to "give away" my point by over-elaborating.

 

[PinSeeker]

Christians lead people to Jesus.

Sure.

Calvinists lead people to Calvin.

Of course not. Calvinists reason through Scripture and understand it along the lines that Calvin did. Only the Holy Spirit can lead folks into Biblical truth.

You dont seem to realize this yet, and if you do, then you are even a worse offender of the truth then i originally perceived @PinSeeker

Hmmm, so you're not answering the question either. Again, Calvinists only say Calvin was right, as opposed to Arminius, regarding who does what in salvation. If Arminians (or anyone else) disagrees, then... it's okay. <smile>

Salvation, receiving it, is the assurance that is Given to us by God....... its a inner witness that is based on the Holy Spirit being in us..

Faith is the assurance of our salvation that is given to us by God. And conviction by the Holy Spirit, which is the inner witness... and outer, actually: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

Our Faith is counted by God.....accepted by God.......and from that point, God DELIVERS to the BELIEVER..."the GIFT of Salvation".

Right, because God gave it to us, and therefore we are delivered... and will be delivered at the day of Christ. As Paul says in Philippians 1:6, "He Who began a good work in (you) will bring it to completion at the day of Christ."

"FAITH" is not assurance.

Ohhhhh, you might want to take a quick look at Hebrews 11:1 (above). There are no uncertain terms there...

...many who have it, dont even have the same faith they had to begin with.........as now they believe they can lose their salvation which proves that they currently have no real faith in Christ at all.

Ah, I don't believe we can say that, really. Many struggle with the assurance of their faith, but this does not mean they don't have this salvific faith. I would say this, actually, Behold, that if they are worried about whether they have faith in God or not, that's actually proof that they do have this faith. If they didn't have this faith, they would not be worried about whether they are saved, if only because they would in that case think it all foolishness.

Typcial HyperCalvinist nonsense....

There is such a thing called hyper-Calvinism, but it's a terrible distortion of what Calvin actually said and wrote, and not Calvinism at all.

Hyper-Calvinism is a theological stance that simultaneously overemphasizes God's sovereignty and minimizes human responsibility, often denying the universal offer of the gospel.

You first state that God's Call is to everyone, and then you CALVINISE it into Hell by reframing it as "pre-destined only".

I'm not reframing anything. There is an outward call ~ this is the general call to repentance and belief and thus general offer of salvation that is to go out to everyone... and we are commissioned by Jesus to take it to the world in Matthew 28. But there is also an inward call, the calling of God, that is only given to God's elect at the time the Holy Spirit works in the person's heart. It's not a "reframing"... they are both real things, but different in nature. You and I have... and presumably everyone here has... received both. Thanks be to God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Bombastic]

Sure.


Of course not. Calvinists reason through Scripture and understand it along the lines that Calvin did. Only the Holy Spirit can lead folks into Biblical truth.


Hmmm, so you're not answering the question either. Again, Calvinists only say Calvin was right, as opposed to Arminius, regarding who does what in salvation. If Arminians (or anyone else) disagrees, then... it's okay. <smile>


Faith is the assurance of our salvation that is given to us by God. And conviction by the Holy Spirit, which is the inner witness... and outer, actually: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)


Right, because God gave it to us, and therefore we are delivered... and will be delivered at the day of Christ. As Paul says in Philippians 1:6, "He Who began a good work in (you) will bring it to completion at the day of Christ."


Ohhhhh, you might want to take a quick look at Hebrews 11:1 (above). There are no uncertain terms there...


Ah, I don't believe we can say that, really. Many struggle with the assurance of their faith, but this does not mean they don't have this salvific faith. I would say this, actually, Behold, that if they are worried about whether they have faith in God or not, that's actually proof that they do have this faith. If they didn't have this faith, they would not be worried about whether they are saved, if only because they would in that case think it all foolishness.


There is such a thing called hyper-Calvinism, but it's a terrible distortion of what Calvin actually said and wrote, and not Calvinism at all.

Hyper-Calvinism is a theological stance that simultaneously overemphasizes God's sovereignty and minimizes human responsibility, often denying the universal offer of the gospel.


I'm not reframing anything. There is an outward call ~ this is the general call to repentance and belief and thus general offer of salvation that is to go out to everyone... and we are commissioned by Jesus to take it to the world in Matthew 28. But there is also an inward call, the calling of God, that is only given to God's elect at the time the Holy Spirit works in the person's heart. It's not a "reframing"... they are both real things, but different in nature. You and I have... and presumably everyone here has... received both. Thanks be to God.

Grace and peace to you.

Pssst, @PinSeeker you reminded me of an article I wrong awhile back on hyper-Calvinism. I'm sure you'll identify the principle behind the charge. I took it a little further to make even Calvinists uncomfortable because I poked at their bacon.

Ya don't have to be a bacon loving Calvinist to be Hyper-Calvinist - Isaiah.school

Ya don’t have to be a bacon loving Calvinist to be Hyper-Calvinist Because some pigs just won’t stay in their theological pen.Before we dive in, a quick note on past scribblings: I once tried playing the patient professor, arming every point with footnotes thick enough to stop a charging...

isaiah.school

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay, so go ahead and explain those terms as you think Calvin taught them or how you understand them (if you understand them differently than he did).

You mean as if I haven't? <chuckles>

He offers salvation to all people (Matthew 22:1-13, Titus 2:11).

Right, this is the general outward call of the Gospel.

It's exactly what I would expect a God who is love (1 John 4:8). Not because He is obligated to do so, but because that is who He is. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and He calls them to repent rather than die in their lost state (Ezekiel 18:30-32, Ezekiel 33:11, Mark 2:16-17)

Sure. Good.

Oops. There you go again. Making things up.

I certainly didn't make up Hebrews 11:1... <chuckles> I mean to deny the very definition of faith given to us by the Holy Spirit is... astounding. And then also there is Hebrews 12:2, that, well, "Jesus (is) the founder and perfecter of our faith..."

If this was true then Jesus being amazed at how much faith the centurion...

Really, it's amazing that any of us has salvific faith at all, that God, in His mercy and compassion and grace, gave it to us in spite of our... well, not only not deserving it but really deserving quite the opposite. "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound..." <smile>

They have no excuse for not being His sheep...

They have no excuse for rejecting God, for exchanging the truth for a lie, as Paul says in Romans 1, because, well, quoting, "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them... His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" (Romans 1:19-20).

God doesn't get angry at people for not doing things that they're not even capable of doing.

"Not capable"... I mean that's the problem there. To say someone is "not capable" of doing something can be meant in two very different ways, which I've explained many times, including in this very thread, but... yeah, there it is again: "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." You will remember, I'm sure, at least because we've talked about it, what Jesus says in response to His disciples in response to their question of, well, "Who then can be saved?" He looks at them (which is particularly meaningful there) and replies, "With man this is impossible, but with God, nothing is impossible" (Luke 18:27).

There's just so much that you don't even take into consideration.

Hmm, well, again, I would say the same of you, SI.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Behold]

Of course not. Calvinists reason through Scripture and understand it along the lines that Calvin did.

Nonsense.

You are a follower of Satanic Calvinism because you were deceived by it, same as any other Calvinist or Hyper-Calvinist.

A KJV ... Heb 13:9, says you were deceived by a "doctrine of Devils", and that is a fact.

That's what happened to you @PinSeeker

Hmmm, so you're not answering the question either. Again, Calvinists only say Calvin was right, as opposed to Arminius, regarding who does what in salvation. If Arminians (or anyone else) disagrees, then... it's okay. <smile>

I wasn't following the discussion at all.
I just noted some of your responses as i was passing through this Thread, , and responded .

Faith is the assurance of our salvation that is given to us by God.

Faith is not any assurance.
Faith in Christ is TRUST.
God does not give you this Trust (faith) .....>He requires it from you, to save you.

"All who believe in Jesus, shall be saved"...

Right, because God gave it to us, and therefore we are delivered... and will be delivered at the day of Christ. As Paul says in Philippians 1:6, "He Who began a good work in (you) will bring it to completion at the day of Christ."

God gives us His Gift of Salvation, if we give God our Faith in Christ.......as then = OUR "faith is counted by God, as (Christ's) Righteousness". (Imputed).

Ohhhhh, you might want to take a quick look at Hebrews 11:1 (above). There are no uncertain terms there...

The bible definition of faith is not the same as your stated false concept that ""faith is assurance.""

See, you are trying to make the FAITH..the assurance,.... and Heb 11:1, is stating that faith is trust.
Trust is "believing in"... what you can't see...... the evidence of things unseen.....ect.
So, the assurance would be to place your faith in what is Eternally secure, and that is : Jesus
He is our assurance, not faith in Him.

Ah, I don't believe we can say that, really. Many struggle with the assurance of their faith, but this does not mean they don't have this salvific faith.

If you believe .......if you BELIEVE....BELIEVE, that you can lose your salvation then you are BELIEVING that Jesus is not your Salvation.
You are not truly TRUSTING In Him to keep you saved. = no faith in Christ.
If you read Philippians 1:6, its says that God is faithful to complete your salvaition........as salvation is that work in the believer that God has begun based on their faith in Christ.
God is FAITHFUL to complete what HE STARTED...... = A Believer's Salvation.

There is such a thing called hyper-Calvinism, but it's a terrible distortion of what Calvin actually said and wrote, and not Calvinism at all.

Hyper Calvinism is just Calvinism on Religious Steroids. @PinSeeker
No Hyper Calvinst admits they are one........but they all state they are a Calvinist.
Go figure.

Hyper-Calvinism is a theological stance that simultaneously overemphasizes God's sovereignty

Calvinism is a demonic doctrine defined by Heb 13:9, as a "doctrine of devils". (KJV).
Its created by someone who could not comprehend the difference between pre-destined and fore-knowledge and its continually taught by those who can't comprehend the difference.
The reason they can't comprehend the difference is because they have J.Calvin's Spiritual and Theological Blindness.
What J.Calvin did, and what the Hyper's do, is redefine "God's Foreknowledge" as "pre-destined"..... and then they twist a lot of verses using that theolgical deception.

But there is also an inward call, the calling of God, that is only given to God's elect

You just literally explained one of the core Satanic concepts of Calvinsim.
See, all deceived Calvinists are obsessed with "elect" and "predestined" as that is the Theological Insanity that drives Calvinism and Hyper-C.

Its possible that there will come a day that this forum catches up to most of the other "christian" forums who try to be kind to the deceived, and they allow them to run amok together in a section that is designed to let them play, but never are they allowed within the general population "Bible Study" or "Theology" forum.

= A Mormon Section
= A Mary Cult Section
= A JW Section
= A Calvinism section.

 

[Jay Ross]

Is not the title of a movie with heart strings "Free Willie."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not reframing anything. There is an outward call ~ this is the general call to repentance and belief and thus general offer of salvation that is to go out to everyone... and we are commissioned by Jesus to take it to the world in Matthew 28. But there is also an inward call, the calling of God, that is only given to God's elect at the time the Holy Spirit works in the person's heart. It's not a "reframing"... they are both real things, but different in nature. You and I have... and presumably everyone here has... received both. Thanks be to God.

Ah, yes. The "general call" to repentance and belief and offer of salvation that goes out to everyone, but somehow can only be answered by relatively few.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean as if I haven't? <chuckles>

Not that I've seen. Where did you give your understanding of total depravity and total inability? Give me a post number.

Right, this is the general outward call of the Gospel.

Yes, that made up "general outward call of the gospel" where Calvinism turns God's genuine offer of salvation to all people into a complete joke.

I certainly didn't make up Hebrews 11:1... <chuckles> I mean to deny the very definition of faith given to us by the Holy Spirit is... astounding. And then also there is Hebrews 12:2, that, well, "Jesus (is) the founder and perfecter of our faith..."

I will always deny your false understanding of scripture, including Hebrews 11:1. It's astounding that you have no idea of what faith is. None. Which is rather concerning, honestly. Repeatedly, scripture describes faith in Christ in relation to people willingly putting their own confidence and trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. When asked by the jailer what he must do to be saved, Paul and Silas did not say "nothing" and did not say what he must do is wait and see if God gives him faith or not, and if He did, then he would then put his faith in Christ unto salvation. No, they told him without knowing if he was elect or not, that what he himself had to do to be saved was believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And they said that was true of everyone in his household as well without knowing if any of them were elect or not. If you were consistent with your doctrine you could not honestly answer that question the same way Paul and Silas did.

Really, it's amazing that any of us has salvific faith at all, that God, in His mercy and compassion and grace, gave it to us in spite of our... well, not only not deserving it but really deserving quite the opposite. "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound..." <smile>

LOL. Speak for yourself. And I'm not talking about you here. I'm talking about the God Man Jesus Christ being amazed by someone's faith. How can that be possible if God gives people saving faith? Did Jesus somehow forget how much faith He gave the centurion? You can't possibly have any explanation for that when you claim that God gives people saving faith. And you have no explanation for why Jesus would marvel at people's unbelief despite Him being the one who determines if people have faith or not.

Mark 6:4 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, among his own relatives, and in his own house.” 5 Now He could do no mighty work there, except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6 And He marveled because of their unbelief. Then He went about the villages in a circuit, teaching.

If it's not man's responsibility to believe, then it makes no sense for Jesus to marvel at how much faith the centurion had or to marvel at the unbelief of the Nazarenes He was talking to. The faith someone had or lack thereof would never have surprised Jesus at all if faith was given to people rather than people using their God given free will to decide whether to believe or not.

They have no excuse for rejecting God, for exchanging the truth for a lie, as Paul says in Romans 1, because, well, quoting, "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them... His invisible attributes, namely, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" (Romans 1:19-20).

So, why do they reject God and exchange the truth for a lie then? What else can explain them having no excuse for doing so except that they had the ability to embrace the truth and to glorify God and be thankful to Him, but chose not to instead? Otherwise, they would have an excuse for rejecting God and suppressing the truth that they knew while exchanging it for a lie.

Not capable"... I mean that's the problem there. To say someone is "not capable" of doing something can be meant in two very different ways, which I've explained many times, including in this very thread

Yes, you have come up with a completely unbelievable explanation for that many times. Maybe some day you'll come up with an explanation that can be taken seriously.

, but... yeah, there it is again: "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..."

That describes you very well.

You will remember, I'm sure, at least because we've talked about it, what Jesus says in response to His disciples in response to their question of, well, "Who then can be saved?" He looks at them (which is particularly meaningful there) and replies, "With man this is impossible, but with God, nothing is impossible" (Luke 18:27).

And your point is? Why did you not include the context of the verse? The context of that verse is in relation to Jesus using hyperbole to illustrate how difficult it is for a rich man who seemingly has everything he needs to enter the kingdom of God. The question was not asked in relation to all people. Rich people tend to not realize that all the riches in the world don't take away one's need to repent and ask for the forgiveness of their sins. But, God wants everyone to be saved, including the rich, so He knows how to reach them with the gospel. Scripture teaches that God wants all people to be saved and offers salvation to all people (1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, Matthew 22:1-13, Titus 2:11), so we can safely assume that God makes it possible for all people to be saved.